Burden of proof

[Trailblazer]

Can you demonstrate demons?
Can you explain what a demon is and where we can find one?
Can we observe demons?
Do you have physical, measurable, observable evidence for demons?
Can you show us a demon?

I do not think you will ever find a demon because I do not believe that demons exist. There is no such entity as a demon, commonly referred to as the devil or Satan. I believe that Satan is a metaphor for the lower selfish nature of man.

“This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan—the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.”
The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 287

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh okay, so you're saying that demons exist in the same sense that love and math exist? Which is to say, abstractly? Is that what you're attempting to say? Or do you believe in actual, physical demons?

But wait, math is demonstrable. Logic is demonstrable. Can you demonstrate demons?


This is comparable to your claims about demons, how, exactly?


Nope. I can explain why rape is wrong.
Can you explain what a demon is and where we can find one?


Nonsense. We can observe brains. I have seen various scans of my own brain, as well as others' brains.
Can we observe demons?


Thinking requires a brain. Brains are physical, measurable, observable, etc.
Do you have physical, measurable, observable evidence for demons?


Again, to understand and think requires a brain, which is a physical thing.
Can you show us a demon?

Rape is always wrong, which underscores that morals exist that are absolute.

I have personally encountered demons and cast them out--if you want to join with me on such an endeavor, we can speak offline.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Rape is always wrong, which underscores that morals exist that are absolute.

How are you defining rape?

If it's something along the lines of "forced sexual activity without the consent of the other party," then bees rape flowers. Female angler fish rape male angler fish.

Rape is heinous... in the human context. But if you're going to argue that there's such a thing as "absolute morality," then the morals you propose need to work in all contexts, anywhere in the universe.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Rape is always wrong, which underscores that morals exist that are absolute.

It demonstrates that a particular action is harmful to human beings.

I have personally encountered demons and cast them out--if you want to join with me on such an endeavor, we can speak offline.

So you've seen demons as actual physical entities? Why is it that nobody has ever been able to present such entities to anyone else in any sort of demonstrable, observable or measurable fashion? Like how if I told you I have a dog, and then could present my dog to you as evidence that I have a dog. Where are these demons and where do they hang out so that nobody can actually observe them?

 

[SkepticThinker]

How are you defining rape?

If it's something along the lines of "forced sexual activity without the consent of the other party," then bees rape flowers. Female angler fish rape male angler fish.

Rape is heinous... in the human context. But if you're going to argue that there's such a thing as "absolute morality," then the morals you propose need to work in all contexts, anywhere in the universe.

Good point!

 

[Sheldon]

Rape is always wrong, which underscores that morals exist that are absolute.

No he was offering an opinion, that rape is always wrong, it was a subjective opinion as are all morals. It is a demonstrable fact that some people don't think rape is wrong, or it would never happen, and the biblical deity encourages it in the bible, by encouraging his followers to traffic female prisoners of war and ethnic cleansing as booty to be married off to the victors as spoils.

I believe rape is wrong because it causes suffering, it traumatizes the victim in a lasting and pernicious way. However while it is objectively true that rape causes lasting emotional and physical suffering, it is not a moral absolute that it is wrong, that is just my opinion.

I have personally encountered demons and cast them out--if you want to join with me on such an endeavor, we can speak offline.

Or you could demonstrate some objective evidence for the claim demons are real. Since I am extremely dubious, and all you have offered is an unevidenced anecdotal claim.

 

[BilliardsBall]

How are you defining rape?

If it's something along the lines of "forced sexual activity without the consent of the other party," then bees rape flowers. Female angler fish rape male angler fish.

Rape is heinous... in the human context. But if you're going to argue that there's such a thing as "absolute morality," then the morals you propose need to work in all contexts, anywhere in the universe.

They do work. People are moral beings, have souls, write poetry, bees don't need a Savior.

 

[BilliardsBall]

It demonstrates that a particular action is harmful to human beings.



So you've seen demons as actual physical entities? Why is it that nobody has ever been able to present such entities to anyone else in any sort of demonstrable, observable or measurable fashion? Like how if I told you I have a dog, and then could present my dog to you as evidence that I have a dog. Where are these demons and where do they hang out so that nobody can actually observe them?

You are begging the question. Please explain gravity here as a visible, tangible, not observed cause and effect, like demons . . . or God.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They do work. People are moral beings, have souls, write poetry, bees don't need a Savior.

Are you saying that it's okay to rape those who don't "write poetry"?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You are begging the question. Please explain gravity here as a visible, tangible, not observed cause and effect, like demons . . . or God.

What I'm doing is asking you a simple question: Demonstrate the veracity of your claims.
You are tap dancing.

Gravity is observable, measurable, testable and demonstrable.
You say, that not only do demons interact with the natural world, but that you yourself have interacted with them. If that is the case, it should be fairly easy to demonstrate their existence.
But here you are still tap dancing. Why is that?

 

[Sheldon]

They do work. People are moral beings, have souls, write poetry, bees don't need a Savior.

All animals that have evolved to live in societal groups exhibit moral behaviour, not just humans. I don't know what bees need, but neither do you, you're simply making an unevidenced assumption.

 

[Sheldon]

You are begging the question. Please explain gravity here as a visible, tangible, not observed cause and effect, like demons . . . or God.

You are aware that there are scientific theories that explain gravity, why and how it works as it does?

What objective evidence for any deity or demons can you demonstrate remotely comparable to Newton's or Einstein's theories? We can measure the effects of gravity, we can make accurate predications about it's effects.

No one can do this for any deity, only invoke mystery, and use subjective unevidenced anecdotal claims, were it otherwise, and science could measure the effects of a deity or demon in the way can objectively measure and make predictions about the effects of gravity, we should not be having this discussion.

 

[Sheldon]

I believe rape is wrong because it causes suffering, and traumatizes the victim in a lasting and pernicious way. However while it is objectively true that rape causes lasting emotional and physical suffering, it is not a moral absolute that it is wrong, that is just my opinion.

So I can only assume your post was a rather jejune attempt to troll me, with a clear straw man that I never made, or you can't read and don't know what subjective means.

I shan't even feign surprise that you failed to address the fact your deity encourages rape through sex trafficking female prisoners in the bible. Blind denial, and evasion are not compelling rebuttals.

 

[Sheldon]

Your response indicates that you didn't actually read his post.

Indeed, an unavoidable inference, as it is either illiteracy on his part, or a deliberate attempt to misrepresent me, rather then deal with my post. Either way my post is there for anyone to see that I never remotely said rape was only contextually wrong. Though I wonder if @BilliardsBall can tell us why he thinks rape is wrong. I always find it ironic that people claim to need divine diktat to tell them violent acts like murder and rape are wrong, but then imply I am somehow less moral because I can see it as immoral subjectively for myself, because they cause unnecessary suffering.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What I'm doing is asking you a simple question: Demonstrate the veracity of your claims.
You are tap dancing.

Gravity is observable, measurable, testable and demonstrable.
You say, that not only do demons interact with the natural world, but that you yourself have interacted with them. If that is the case, it should be fairly easy to demonstrate their existence.
But here you are still tap dancing. Why is that?

What?! The force of gravity is observable only by cause and effect. How do you measure it exactly? Ergs, watts? Baloney.

If you'd like to meet offline, we can get into demons and angels together. For now, I must settle for demonized people posting to forums.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You are aware that there are scientific theories that explain gravity, why and how it works as it does?

What objective evidence for any deity or demons can you demonstrate remotely comparable to Newton's or Einstein's theories? We can measure the effects of gravity, we can make accurate predications about it's effects.

No one can do this for any deity, only invoke mystery, and use subjective unevidenced anecdotal claims, were it otherwise, and science could measure the effects of a deity or demon in the way can objectively measure and make predictions about the effects of gravity, we should not be having this discussion.

Let's sum your answer as handwaving about the true nature of gravity (theories exist, it's not God!) and scientism.

 

[SkepticThinker]

What?! The force of gravity is observable only by cause and effect. How do you measure it exactly? Ergs, watts? Baloney.

Well, for starters ...

Gravimetry - Wikipedia.
What is Gravity? How is Gravity Measured from Space? | PO.DAAC / JPL / NASA
A new way to measure Earth’s gravity
How to Calculate Force of Gravity: 10 Steps (with Pictures)
Physicists Measure the Gravitational Force between the Smallest Masses Yet

Do you have anything even close to this for demons??

And please notice how the evidence for gravity isn't like, some guy claiming he saw gravity once.

If you'd like to meet offline, we can get into demons and angels together. For now, I must settle for demonized people posting to forums.

I'd prefer to discuss it in this debate forum that we're currently on. Is it some sort of big secret or something? How come everybody doesn't know about these supposed demons? Oops, we're back to my original question again. It would be super awesome if you'd answer a question sometime.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Well, for starters ...

Gravimetry - Wikipedia.
What is Gravity? How is Gravity Measured from Space? | PO.DAAC / JPL / NASA
A new way to measure Earth’s gravity
How to Calculate Force of Gravity: 10 Steps (with Pictures)
Physicists Measure the Gravitational Force between the Smallest Masses Yet

Do you have anything even close to this for demons??

And please notice how the evidence for gravity isn't like, some guy claiming he saw gravity once.



I'd prefer to discuss it in this debate forum that we're currently on. Is it some sort of big secret or something? How come everybody doesn't know about these supposed demons? Oops, we're back to my original question again. It would be super awesome if you'd answer a question sometime.

You are missing my point re: gravity. It is an unknown force that is observed in nature. Electricity = electrons in passage. Light is particles that move as waves. Gravity is . . . ? A known force seen by cause and effect. God may likewise be observed by cause and effect.

I don't have video of past exorcism sessions, but can invite you to Zoom for the next one. It's not a big secret. I can also recommend you to visit local churches that may be able to assist you. Both born agains and unbelievers can have a persistent demon that both harasses them and may be removed.

I'm aware that your worldview will take both of the above and make them either human error or "yet unknown natural causes", so don't bother, but do recognize I've just answered both your questions.

 

[Sheldon]

What?! The force of gravity is observable only by cause and effect. How do you measure it exactly? Ergs, watts? Baloney.

Gravity is measured by the acceleration that it gives to freely falling objects. At Earth's surface the acceleration of gravity is about 9.8 metres (32 feet) per second per second. Thus, for every second an object is in free fall, its speed increases by about 9.8 metres per second.

gravity | Definition, Physics, & Facts

If you'd like to meet offline, we can get into demons and angels together. For now, I must settle for demonized people posting to forums.

You're starting to worry me now, but unless you can demonstrate objective evidence I shall remain extremely dubious, and putting on a show is not objective evidence.

 

[Sheldon]

You are aware that there are scientific theories that explain gravity, why and how it works as it does?

What objective evidence for any deity or demons can you demonstrate remotely comparable to Newton's or Einstein's theories? We can measure the effects of gravity, we can make accurate predications about it's effects.

No one can do this for any deity, only invoke mystery, and use subjective unevidenced anecdotal claims, were it otherwise, and science could measure the effects of a deity or demon in the way can objectively measure and make predictions about the effects of gravity, we should not be having this discussion.

Let's sum your answer as handwaving about the true nature of gravity (theories exist, it's not God!) and scientism.