Burqa and security

[Shadow Wolf]

Personally, I don't have much of a problem in banning burqas. No school of mainstream Islam requires those and it's a sure mark of extremism.

Personally, I think it's sad and depressing that such a thing even exists.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Personally, I think it's sad and depressing that such a thing even exists.

Same. That was what was enforced by the Taliban. It's a Pashtun thing. Afghan women can legally wear what they want now, but many still wear the burqa due to the treat of violence. The burqa also causes health problems in the severe heat.

For future reference:

 

[BSM1]

Hm ... nudist airlines, the safest way to fly?

I would want to fly crouch...uhh, I mean...coach.

 

[sun rise]

Are you saying because masks are ok then burqas should be ok?

I don't think one has to do with the other. The reality is that covering one's face so that they can't be identified is a security risk.

You have a dictatorship police state when illusory security is considered more important than liberty. As Benjamin Franklin wisely said: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

To me it's much, much more important to stand for basic American values such as liberty than to establish a police state where cops go around looking for people wearing the wrong kind of clothes and then, what? Arrest them and jail them for 10 years in a concentration camp for Muslims?

And, by the way, many masks cover the face so someone can't be identified. Such as http://www.ebay.com/bhp/bullet-proof-mask for one obvious example.

But to me, a much bigger security risk comes from people who can buy guns with no background check because who knows who is carrying a fully armed semi-automatic gun ready to terrorize a community. So let's first institute mandatory checks on all gun purchases with full licensing and registration. That is a much more likely step to stop armed terrorists.

 

[Leo613]

You have a dictatorship police state when illusory security is considered more important than liberty. As Benjamin Franklin wisely said: Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

To me it's much, much more important to stand for basic American values such as liberty than to establish a police state where cops go around looking for people wearing the wrong kind of clothes and then, what? Arrest them and jail them for 10 years in a concentration camp for Muslims?

And, by the way, many masks cover the face so someone can't be identified. Such as http://www.ebay.com/bhp/bullet-proof-mask for one obvious example.

But to me, a much bigger security risk comes from people who can buy guns with no background check because who knows who is carrying a fully armed semi-automatic gun ready to terrorize a community. So let's first institute mandatory checks on all gun purchases with full licensing and registration. That is a much more likely step to stop armed terrorists.

Maybe in that erea the UK are ahead of you we just need to worry about the burqa

 

[Leo613]

Okay, but do you promise to stop being afraid of women if you are allowed to force them to undress in public? Or will she be violated, and you still feel nervous?

Why undress?

This is the burqa:

We're not talking about the hijab. Personally, I don't have much of a problem in banning burqas. No school of mainstream Islam requires those and it's a sure mark of extremism. I'm unsure about banning niqabs because they do seem to play a part in certain established schools of Islam and are quite widespread in the Muslim world, even though I'm very uncomfortable with the notion of women feeling that they have to cover their face for religious "modesty" reasons. It's even sadder when I see little girls wearing them. The face is a huge part of human communication and our identity.

So personally, my issue is the covering of the face. Hijabs are just fine. I even think they're pretty.

 

[Grumpuss]

Oppression and safety are not easy bedfellows; if your sense of security is dependent on stripping others of their rights, you will never be, or feel, safe.

Interesting you choose the word, "oppression". The sort of places where such apparel is required-- not fringe, "extremist" societies, but whole countries like Saudi Arabia-- use such measures to strip women of as much individuality and freedom as possible. Not coincidentally, things like education and freedom of movement are also severely restricted in such places.

While it can be debated whether it is male-dominated repressive culture that justifies itself through religion, or whether religion reinforces such oppression, the result is still the same: such Islam-based practices are spreading at an alarming rate. Very soon (if it hang happened already), cultures will clash, and women who currently enjoy the rights of sexual freedom, education and universal suffrage will find a well-coordinated effort based out of Islam to deprive them of those rights.

 

[Grumpuss]

Maybe in that erea the UK are ahead of you we just need to worry about the burqa

Hajib and other face/coverings are all awful and oppressive.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

But to me, a much bigger security risk comes from people who can buy guns with no background check because who knows who is carrying a fully armed semi-automatic gun ready to terrorize a community. So let's first institute mandatory checks on all gun purchases with full licensing and registration. That is a much more likely step to stop armed terrorists.

That's how I feel. I am so much more concerned about our easy access to guns and lack of training, our very relaxed laws and penalties for dangerous drivers, our over-dependency on anti-biotics, the toxins and poisons we put into our food, and that the real Erin Brockovich is still fighting against cadmium poisonings are things that concern me far more than terrorists. And I fully agree that even sensible gun laws and regulations will go a very long way in identifying and preventing not only terrorists, but the high-risk non-terrorists who are killing far more Americans than terrorists are. At the rate we're going, Islamic extremists only need to patiently wait as we kill ourselves off.

Hajib and other face/coverings are all awful and oppressive.

The hijab doesn't cover the face, and even some secular women wear similar type head dresses/scarves as a fashion. It's only when they are required that they are oppressive, but it is the laws and rules that are oppressive when mandated, not the manner of dress when someone freely chooses to dress in such a manner.

 

[Grumpuss]

The hijab doesn't cover the face, and even some secular women wear similar type head dresses/scarves as a fashion. It's only when they are required that they are oppressive, but it is the laws and rules that are oppressive when mandated, not the manner of dress when someone freely chooses to dress in such a manner.

Who cares how much the hijab covers vs. the burqa? The reason for both is the same, and I think you'd have a tough time asserting that Saudi Arabia's society is not "oppressive" to women. You appear to instead be arguing against restriction upon such head coverings by Muslims in Western countries, based on the flawed argument that such women are doing so "voluntarily" out of some fashion choice, which is a different problem (though related). Often the mind of an activist compartmentalizes, and presto- the concerns of brutalized women in Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh or Nigeria are forgotten.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Who cares how much the hijab covers vs. the burqa?

Because the burqa is complete and total coverage, so sever that it even obstructs vision, and they are only found in the most extremist of places (as was pointed out, not actually required by Islam, but enforced by the Taliban).

The reason for both is the same

They aren't the same. The one is a religious mandate that isn't even worn 100% of the time (even some Muslim women here on RF has expressed they only wear the hijab for special occasions and attending religious ceremonies), and the other is the mandate of an ultra-conservative and violent extremist group who rules with an iron fist.

I think you'd have a tough time asserting that Saudi Arabia's society is not "oppressive" to women.

I don't claim it isn't extremely oppressive towards women. Last I knew, they aren't even allowed to drive cars. I don't get what your point is.

You appear to instead be arguing against restriction upon such head coverings by Muslims in Western countries, based on the flawed argument that such women are doing so "voluntarily" out of some fashion choice

When it's a choice that harms no one, why should I care or insist they not do it? I expect the freedom to make my own choices and decisions, so why should I not extend this expectation to others? I may not agree with such religious restrictions, but a part of a having a society that is civil is showing, at the bare minimum, tolerance towards those you disagree with. I may view things like the Eucharist and Confession to be a total waste of time, but that doesn't mean it has to offend me and that I can't just accept that people who do believe in such things are just living their own lives as they see fit. It harms me none, it bothers me not at all, and so long as it isn't being forced on people I just don't see any reason to care about it or complain about it

Often the mind of an activist compartmentalizes, and presto- the concerns of brutalized women in Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh or Nigeria are forgotten.

Then why do so many activists hold up people like Malala Yousafzai, Hamid Dalwai, Salim Mansur, Muhammad Rashid Rida, Ahmed Hasan Ali Al-Gubbanchi and other Islamic reformists? If these women are forgotten, then why is attention drawn to things like female genital mutilation female literacy and education?

 

[YmirGF]

That's interesting. They're actually pretty common around here.

True, but it's probably not a great idea to walk into a bank with one up, wearing sunglasses.

 

[Wirey]

How can it be safe for the public not to be able to identify a person because they're wearing a Burqa especially in today's day and age?

It could be anyone underneath maybe a criminal or even a terrorist.

I agree! Let's outlaw wigs and makeup and hats and hair dye and scarves and mittens and hoodies and shawls and high heeled shoes and clothes and all have our names and social insurance numbers tattooed on our backs and chests. Then we'll be safe!

 

[Sakeenah]

How can it be safe for the public not to be able to identify a person because they're wearing a Burqa especially in today's day and age?

It could be anyone underneath maybe a criminal or even a terrorist.

Hi,

I'm a muslim woman and wear niqab..personally I haven't seen women wearing a burkah in the UK or Saudi Arabia.The burkah is a covering they wear in Afghanistan it's more cultural than Islamic.
This is the niqab most women in the west wear.

All the muslim women I know who wear niqab(including myself) don't have an issue with ID check at airports,courts etc. I simply lift the face veil up for a second.

So personally I don't understand why some people have an issue with it.
Quite a few muslim women who used to wear it removed their niqab because they faced a lot of hostility and abuse. So it's not that the public isn't safe..muslim women wearing it aren't safe in today's day and age.

 

[Leo613]

Hi,

I'm a muslim woman and wear niqab..personally I haven't seen women wearing a burkah in the UK or Saudi Arabia.The burkah is a covering they wear in Afghanistan it's more cultural than Islamic.
This is the niqab most women in the west wear.

All the muslim women I know who wear niqab(including myself) don't have an issue with ID check at airports,courts etc. I simply lift the face veil up for a second.

So personally I don't understand why some people have an issue with it.
Quite a few muslim women who used to wear it removed their niqab because they faced a lot of hostility and abuse. So it's not that the public isn't safe..muslim women wearing it aren't safe in today's day and age.

I think there's a problem if someone walks around in public and they can't be identified by looking at them or by cctv it doesn't seem safe

 

[Sakeenah]

I think there's a problem if someone walks around in public and they can't be identified by looking at them or by cctv it doesn't seem safe

Again I don't understand your point..if a person wants to commit a crime they can also disguise themselves wearing a hat,scarf,hoody,wig and sunglasses. So do you think those should be banned too?

 

[Revoltingest]

All these theoretical & hypothetical arguments have some merit.
But in actual experience, how much security trouble have Muslim style face coverings caused?
(This isn't a challenge. It's cuz I don't know.)

 

[Leo613]

Hi,

I'm a muslim woman and wear niqab..personally I haven't seen women wearing a burkah in the UK or Saudi Arabia.The burkah is a covering they wear in Afghanistan it's more cultural than Islamic.
This is the niqab most women in the west wear.

All the muslim women I know who wear niqab(including myself) don't have an issue with ID check at airports,courts etc. I simply lift the face veil up for a second.

So personally I don't understand why some people have an issue with it.
Quite a few muslim women who used to wear it removed their niqab because they faced a lot of hostility and abuse. So it's not that the public isn't safe..muslim women wearing it aren't safe in today's day and age.

I think its anti social on a very basic level. 80% of comnication is body language which is mainly facial expression were trying to build the connection between muslims and society and covering one's face makes it more difficult to communicate.

 

[Sakeenah]

I think its anti social on a very basic level. 80% of comnication is body language which is mainly facial expression were trying to build the connection between muslims and society and covering one's face makes it more difficult to communicate.

No problem I respect your opinion even though I don't agree with you..I can perfectly communicate with people, by talking to them and using body language.
But how is this relevant to your first post " burqah and security" ?

 

[Leo613]

No problem I respect your opinion even though I don't agree with you..I can perfectly communicate with people, by talking to them and using body language.
But how is this relevant to your first post " burqah and security" ?

I think its not helpful for security if one can't tell the identity of someone. the basis of security is to recognise someone to know who they are.