But you said you were okay with abortion...

[Falvlun]

First of all, those consequences were a direct result of her choice. They are not being imposed on her.

AND the choice of the man who chose to have sex with her. You forget that part. Death and taxes are the only two sure things in this world. Unfortunately for you, the decision to abort is not one of them. The father is not "responsible" for Ana's decision not to have an abortion, but he is responsible for his decision to have sex in the first place despite the fact that there is no guarantee that a child will not result.

And as i mentioned a few posts ago:

"By breaking her word she generated a financial loss on another person.
This loss has to be restituted."

"In an analogy, imagine i lend you my cellphone, and you put it in a bag with yours. You slam the bag against a wall several times and both cellphones get broken/destroyed. We both went through a loss, but both were caused by you. Therefore, you still must restitute what i lost."

Yeah, but you left out an important part: We both agreed to put our cell phones in that bag together and see what happens when we smashed them against the wall. I assured you that your cell phone will not break. It broke. My bad. But you agreed to the experiment in the first place. If you are not willing to chance your cell phone breaking, then maybe you shouldn't put it in situations that it might break.

And you glossed over the part that is making my blood boil right now: You are implying that the female has no repercussions out of this, that she is being relieved of all responsibility. Do you realize how completely dishonest and clueless that position is?

 

[Koldo]

Not for me.

I mean the sort of financial penalty that your plan would create: a situation where a woman who knows the father and where the father is capable of paying his share would be confronted with the prospect of paying for the entire cost of raising the child unless she aborts.

This is economic coercion. I think that coercion is immoral.

You made me laugh.
So, if you engage in an agreement, and you don't keep your word, and a financial restitution is due, you call it coercion?

Except you seem to have wrapped your perception in all sorts of false impressions.

How do you know if they are true or false?

 

[Koldo]

A more apt analogy: both of our cell phones are broken and I promise to get yours fixed when I bring mind in. For whatever reason (the repair shop is closed when I get there, for instance), I don't fix either one. I give yours back to you in the condition you gave it to me in.

You have lost nothing, and are therefore owed nothing by me.

This analogy doesn't fit the case.
My cellphone is indeed broken because of you.

 

[Koldo]

AND the choice of the man who chose to have sex with her. You forget that part. Death and taxes are the only two sure things in this world. Unfortunately for you, the decision to abort is not one of them. The father is not "responsible" for Ana's decision not to have an abortion, but he is responsible for his decision to have sex in the first place despite the fact that there is no guarantee that a child will not result.

Indeed he is responsible for having sex with Ana.
However, they had an agreement that she would abort.

Yeah, but you left out an important part: We both agreed to put our cell phones in that bag together and see what happens when we smashed them against the wall. I assured you that your cell phone will not break. It broke. My bad. But you agreed to the experiment in the first place. If you are not willing to chance your cell phone breaking, then maybe you shouldn't put it in situations that it might break.

This doesn't fit the case at hand.
In the analogy, smashing the cellphones is equal to having the baby.
To make the analogy more complete i would say that you had agreed not to smash the bag ( with the cellphones inside ) against the wall.

And you glossed over the part that is making my blood boil right now: You are implying that the female has no repercussions out of this, that she is being relieved of all responsibility. Do you realize how completely dishonest and clueless that position is?

I didn't say she was relieved of all responsibility. I mentioned that her cellphone was also broken in the process. Quite in fact, considering the pregnancy and that women typically have the custody of the child, we could even change the analogy to make it as if the woman had put a cellphone made of gold in the bag. It still doesn't change my point though.

 

[Alceste]

No. I think it is morally wrong to break your word.

And you are of the opinion that every single statement people make for their entire lives, regardless of the context, constitutes an unbreakable oath that should be enforced by the state?

 

[Koldo]

And you are of the opinion that every single statement people make for their entire lives, regardless of the context, constitutes an unbreakable oath that should be enforced by the state?

The meaning of a statement can only be known through the context.

 

[Alceste]

That part of the argument was about who is a deadbeat dad. Not about who should pay child support.

A deadbeat Dad is a Dad who doesn't pay child support, who hadn't taken adequate steps to legally pass his parental responsibility to some other party.

 

[Koldo]

A deadbeat Dad is a Dad who doesn't pay child support, who hadn't taken adequate steps to legally pass his parental responsibility to some other party.

As i said, it implies someone who should pay child support, but isn't doing so.
If the law i proposed was accepted, the father would be made legally exempt from this responsibility if ( and only if/when ) the mother makes past a certain mark of income. In which case he wouldn't be a deadbeat dad.

 

[Falvlun]

Indeed he is responsible for having sex with Ana.
However, they had an agreement that she would abort.

And the guy took the chance, fully knowing that there is no guarantee that she actually would, since a) it is legally unenforceable and b) people change their minds, especially about something as emotional and life-changing as pregnancies and abortion.

This doesn't fit the case at hand.
In the analogy, smashing the cellphones is equal to having the baby.
To make the analogy more complete i would say that you had agreed not to smash the bag ( with the cellphones inside ) against the wall.

Nope, smashing the cell phones is equal to having sex. PS: The cell phones = sperm and eggs. The broken cell phone is equal to having a baby. That is the financial burden resultant from the action of smashing the cell phones.

I didn't say she was relieved of all responsibility. I mentioned that her cellphone was also broken in the process. Quite in fact, considering the pregnancy and that women typically have the custody of the child, we could even change the analogy to make it as if the woman had put a cellphone made of gold in the bag. It still doesn't change my point though.

I'm not talking about that analogy. I'm talking about that quote of yours that brought me into this conversation. You asked "But what should happen to Ana?
I am very much in favour of people taking responsibility too." Which, of course, implies that you feel that, by making a father pay child support, we are somehow relieving Ana of her responsibility. Please, please tell me that that's not what you meant.

I am willing to negotiate with you. The way I see it, there are two responsibilities here (and yes I feel that I'm being generous for giving you the second one).

1. The responsibility of producing a child, due to having sex. This is equally shared by both parties, unless one party revokes parental rights (custody). There is no guarantee, ever, that a child will not be produced from having sex, therefore, the choice to have sex means that you have accepted that possibility, regardless of how minute you believe the chances are.
2. The responsibility of Ana for breaking her promise to abort. This is Ana's responsibility alone.

Ana pays for her responsibility both by carrying the child to term, giving birth, and then by being the primary care giver. (That last one is exceedingly likely, since Ana wants the kid, and the father does not. If the father does want to be the primary care giver for the kid, then this whole thing is moot, since it is the father choosing to relieve Ana from the burden of her responsibility, because he wants it.)

They both share the responsibility for having sex by paying for the care of the child.

Both responsibilities are covered and payed for. Now, explain why you are willing to let the father off the hook for his responsibility? Why do you believe that those three penalties to Ana are not penance enough for breaking her promise?

 

[Alceste]

The meaning of a statement can only be known through the context.

My ex fiance said he'd have two kids with me, and wouldn't sleep around. I told him if he lied to me I wouldn't even be his friend any more, let alone wife. He cheated on me and lied to me. What does he owe me for the kids he didn't give me?

 

[Koldo]

My ex fiance said he'd have two kids with me, and wouldn't sleep around. I told him if he lied to me I wouldn't even be his friend any more, let alone wife. He cheated on me and lied to me. What does he owe me for the kids he didn't give me?

What do you think he owes you?

 

[Alceste]

What do you think he owes you?

I don't think he owes me anything. He's just a jerk. What do YOU think he owes me, since you are the one who is arguing that people who break their word ought to be liable for the damages incurred. What do you think it's worth that I wanted children, and because I wasted five of my fertile years on his empty promises, I now might never be able to have children?

 

[Koldo]

And the guy took the chance, fully knowing that there is no guarantee that she actually would, since a) it is legally unenforceable and b) people change their minds, especially about something as emotional and life-changing as pregnancies and abortion.

What do you mean by 'legally unenforceable'?
And indeed people do change their minds. This happens even in written agreements though. This hasn't made written agreements useless though.

Nope, smashing the cell phones is equal to having sex. PS: The cell phones = sperm and eggs. The broken cell phone is equal to having a baby. That is the financial burden resultant from the action of smashing the cell phones.

I didn't know sex automatically caused financial loss.

I'm not talking about that analogy. I'm talking about that quote of yours that brought me into this conversation. You asked "But what should happen to Ana?
I am very much in favour of people taking responsibility too." Which, of course, implies that you feel that, by making a father pay child support, we are somehow relieving Ana of her responsibility. Please, please tell me that that's not what you meant.

There are two different responsibilities here.
We are not relieving Ana of her responsibility to the child by making Harry pay the child support.
However, if the woman doesn't restitute the loss caused to Harry, we are relieving her of the responsibility to the agreement made with Harry.

I am willing to negotiate with you. The way I see it, there are two responsibilities here (and yes I feel that I'm being generous for giving you the second one).

1. The responsibility of producing a child, due to having sex. This is equally shared by both parties, unless one party revokes parental rights (custody). There is no guarantee, ever, that a child will not be produced from having sex, therefore, the choice to have sex means that you have accepted that possibility, regardless of how minute you believe the chances are.
2. The responsibility of Ana for breaking her promise to abort. This is Ana's responsibility alone.

Ana pays for her responsibility both by carrying the child to term, giving birth, and then by being the primary care giver. (That last one is exceedingly likely, since Ana wants the kid, and the father does not. If the father does want to be the primary care giver for the kid, then this whole thing is moot, since it is the father choosing to relieve Ana from the burden of her responsibility, because he wants it.)

They both share the responsibility for having sex by paying for the care of the child.

Both responsibilities are covered and payed for. Now, explain why you are willing to let the father off the hook for his responsibility? Why do you believe that those three penalties to Ana are not penance enough for breaking her promise?

Ana is not taking responsibility for #2.
All those 3 "penalties" are a result of, and only of, the #1 responsibility.

 

[Koldo]

I don't think he owes me anything. He's just a jerk. What do YOU think he owes me, since you are the one who is arguing that people who break their word ought to be liable for the damages incurred. What do you think it's worth that I wanted children, and because I wasted five of my fertile years on his empty promises, I now might never be able to have children?

That's problematic because even if i said anything at all it wouldn't matter if you think he owes you nothing.

 

[waitasec]

I don't think he owes me anything. He's just a jerk. What do YOU think he owes me, since you are the one who is arguing that people who break their word ought to be liable for the damages incurred. What do you think it's worth that I wanted children, and because I wasted five of my fertile years on his empty promises, I now might never be able to have children?

you're right he doesn't owe you anything. in fact, he earned that title all by his lonesome self.

:yes:

 

[Willamena]

That's problematic because even if i said anything at all it wouldn't matter if you think he owes you nothing.

It matters to her.

 

[Alceste]

That's problematic because even if i said anything at all it wouldn't matter if you think he owes you nothing.

No, YOU think he owes me something. Isn't that what you've been arguing? That because he changed his mind, or broke his promise, or whatever you want to call it, that he's liable to pay me damages? At the very least, he owes me a house, right? Since our many conversations about our future together involved discussion of the kind of house we would live in, and that I would be a full-time mom?

 

[waitasec]

a lot of americans think they are owed something for some reason when things go wrong
that's why our insurance premiums are so high...

 

[Alceste]

a lot of americans think they are owed something for some reason when things go wrong
that's why our insurance premiums are so high...

You are a rather litigious race, aren't you.

 

[waitasec]

You are a rather litigious race, aren't you.

ha ha
my race is cuban


americans cater to a litigious bunch of wack jobs