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But you said you were okay with abortion...

Draka

Wonder Woman
It just wouldn't and couldn't be binding unless they made out a contract stating the promise. The thing is, you're not supposed to trust anyone when they say things like that. If they say things like "I promise I will get an abortion" or "I am on the pill". A woman can say when she's not pregnant that she will get an abortion and when she is pregnant, she has a whole different attitude- that kind of thing happens all the time. The pill, condoms, and other contraception don't work 100% of the time- even men know this. The fact is that any sexual encounter outside of a few (being infertile, woman past a certain age, etc) may end up in pregnancy. And it is a fact that no woman can get pregnant all by herself.

At the risk of sounding too moralizing, "If you don't want a baby, keep it in your pants". ;)

There's a song from the Eagles called "Get Over It". I think it may be appropriate in this discussion. ;)

Tried saying this much as well. Don't think he wants to hear it. He's too busy trying to paint a poor poor victim picture of the guy who just can't not have sex.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Tried saying this much as well. Don't think he wants to hear it. He's too busy trying to paint a poor poor victim picture of the guy who just can't not have sex.

Or a guy who is pathologically, ludicrously attached to the idea of never having to pay any money to raise his own children, but fails to get legal advice and draw up a binding contract for his sexual partners to ensure that they will not attempt to collect child support from him.

"Boo hoo! Poor Harry! He was an idiot, and now he's stuck with CONSEQUENCES of his decisions. No fair, only women should face consequences!"
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Why is it when I hear "promises to abort" I start thinking of "I'll leave my wife, I promise". Things said before sex are things said in the heat of the moment and should not be actually taken to be contractual. Honestly. :facepalm:
Exactly. According to Koldo, we should have a law that forces a man to pay his mistress a lifetime of marital support for refusing to divorce his wife, even though he promised to.

According to Koldo, we should have a law that forces the person filing for divorce to pay for all the financial costs of divorce, including the relocation of the ex-spouse, since after-all, s/he promised to love him/her forever.

According to Koldo, any bet made between friends should be legally enforcable.

Any other situations you guys can think of? After all, we can't let all those promise breakers to go legally unpunished!
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Exactly. According to Koldo, we should have a law that forces a man to pay his mistress a lifetime of marital support for refusing to divorce his wife, even though he promised to.

According to Koldo, we should have a law that forces the person filing for divorce to pay for all the financial costs of divorce, including the relocation of the ex-spouse, since after-all, s/he promised to love him/her forever.

According to Koldo, any bet made between friends should be legally enforcable.

Any other situations you guys can think of? After all, we can't let all those promise breakers to go legally unpunished!

I can think of many scenarios, I promise you. (Did you record that?)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
According to Koldo, we should have a law that forces the person filing for divorce to pay for all the financial costs of divorce, including the relocation of the ex-spouse, since after-all, s/he promised to love him/her forever.
I didn't realize that you've met my ex. :sarcastic
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Hey, Koldo, how is Harry going to be able to prove to the court that if Ana hadn't expressed a willingness to have an abortion if she got pregnant, he wouldn't have had sex with her anyway?
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Hey, Koldo, how is Harry going to be able to prove to the court that if Ana hadn't expressed a willingness to have an abortion if she got pregnant, he wouldn't have had sex with her anyway?

Prediction:

"But you see, that's irrelevent. What's only relevent is that she broke a promise, and she must pay. Anything that Harry did or said or anything is irrelevent because it's more important that Ana pay for her mistakes."

I have room for one more prediction. After that, I'm gonna have to go throw up. :p
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
Exactly. According to Koldo, we should have a law that forces a man to pay his mistress a lifetime of marital support for refusing to divorce his wife, even though he promised to.

According to Koldo, we should have a law that forces the person filing for divorce to pay for all the financial costs of divorce, including the relocation of the ex-spouse, since after-all, s/he promised to love him/her forever.

According to Koldo, any bet made between friends should be legally enforcable.

Any other situations you guys can think of? After all, we can't let all those promise breakers to go legally unpunished!

Correction....female promise breakers. I never heard any support for going after the multi-millionaire who promised me all kinds of goodies for having sex with him in the back of his stretch limo in Manhattan. ;)
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
You didn't--rather, it's the point that you're forgetting/ignoring.

The argument that Harry shouldn't have to pay child support, because Ana made the choice she did, is also an argument that current child support laws should exempt Harry (men in his situation). Only that would result in another unfairness--Ana paying double the child support that she otherwise would have to pay, just because she wants a baby.

In other words, the argument that Harry should not have to pay child support is an argument that Ana should have to pay double child support.

How is that an unfariness?
It is not because she wants a baby. It is because she is breaking her promise.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
Correction....female promise breakers. I never heard any support for going after the multi-millionaire who promised me all kinds of goodies for having sex with him in the back of his stretch limo in Manhattan. ;)

In fairness, he did acknowledge that my ex owes me a house, although he was rather conservative in saying he only owes me HALF a house, and no child support, even though I was promised a whole house and two kids to go with it.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Exactly that: You cannot force a woman to have an abortion.

I agree. But the same goes for several other things. So it doesn't matter.

You also cannot legally enforce a verbal promise; as others have noted, to make such a law would create ridiculous, dangerous, and unprovable (he said/ she said) circumstances. We don't have such laws for any other verbal promises, for all those reasons above, so I fail to see why we should make an exception in this case.

Whether we have a law that enforces a verbal promise is not relevant.
The matter is whether there should be one.
The 'he said/she said' problem wouldn't exist.
Either you prove 'he said/she said' or no action will be taken by a judge.
And i don't care what you find to be ridiculous.

Written agreements are something different than a verbal promise, and even then, if you get a written agreement from your sweetheart that she will abort, you will also likely have to have it looked over by a lawyer to make sure that it is a reasonable agreement, otherwise judges will likely throw it out if they feel the person was coerced, lacked full understanding, or otherwise was entering into an unwise and unfair agreement (see pre-nup laws; even they aren't ironclad if a judge feels that they were unfair).

As i said, it doesn't matter how things are. It is all about how they should be.

Additionally, relying solely upon a verbal promise as your ticket out of caring for your child that you helped create is simply dumb. People should be aware that people change their minds, that the decision to abort is exceedingly complex, and if they aren't aware, they are idiots. I don't think that we should make laws to protect stupidity.

I am also against laws that protect stupidity. However, what i see as stupidity is to make a promise, break it and expect to face no consequences.

Sex automatically comes with the risk of incurring financial loss. You accept that risk everytime you consent to sex. Likewise, the cell phones might not have broken, even though there was the risk; maybe you were smart and put yours in an Otter box. ;)

In the analogy, there is no risk of financial loss.
Once you smash the cellphones several times against a wall, they will break. This is certain.

You have failed to make that case. How exactly is choosing to keep the child "relieving her of the responsibility" of breaking her promise? She has to pay dearly for breaking her promise to abort, namely, by carrying a child to term, by delivering it, and then by caring for it.

She is not paying by her promise when she takes care of the baby.
That is a result of her #1 responsibility.

Maybe you are unclear of what "not aborting" entails. Generally, that means you carry a fetus to term, deliver it, and then (if you don't choose adoption), you raise it.

I find it incredibly strange that basically what it boils down to is that you don't think that Ana is being penalized enough. It's not that you don't understand that she's already being penalized for her decision; it's just not enough for you. And meanwhile, you are willing to let Harry off scot free for his responsibility in choosing to have sex in the first place. You are so concerned with Ana taking responsibility for her promise, that you are willing to completely let Harry drop all responsibility for choosing a course of action that resulted in the production of a child. Why are you not okay with one party not taking (what you deem to be) full responsibility, but are completely okay with the other party taking no responsibility at all?

It doesn't matter to me if you don't have one of your limbs, for example. You might be penalized enough by life, but that doesn't exempt you from going to jail for stealing my car.

It doesn't matter if she screwed herself financially by breaking her promise. The financial loss Harry went through has to be restituted because she was one who caused it.

She is suffering the consequences of her #1 responsibility. Period.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Because people "agree" to all sorts of things when they haven't given them enough thought, and because they are prone to changing their minds all the time. Trying to enforce legal penalties on people for being people is both unreasonable and impractical, in my opinion.

The same goes for written agreements though.

I think the hypothetical law we're discussing here is far closer to draconian than "just," to be honest.

Why?

She would have to secure a living both for her and her child, in addition to raising and taking care of him/her. Putting all child support payments on her shoulders gives her an additional burden that is extremely taxing and forces her to work harder than if the father were to take responsibility for said payments.

Did you actually read what i proposed?
This seems not to be case. Otherwise you wouldn't be saying this.

One would think that raising a child is enough of a responsibility, no?

Or does she have to face all kinds of trials and tribulations as a form of poetic justice for "breaking her promise"?

Those are distinct responsibilities.

She doesn't 'willingly' break them, though: she didn't choose to have an unexpected pregnancy. The way I see it, the law you're proposing would be like both cellphones breaking completely by chance and all the blame being solely put on the woman.

She did WILLINGLY break them.
Breaking them is choosing not to abort.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
It just wouldn't and couldn't be binding unless they made out a contract stating the promise. The thing is, you're not supposed to trust anyone when they say things like that. If they say things like "I promise I will get an abortion" or "I am on the pill". A woman can say when she's not pregnant that she will get an abortion and when she is pregnant, she has a whole different attitude- that kind of thing happens all the time. The pill, condoms, and other contraception don't work 100% of the time- even men know this. The fact is that any sexual encounter outside of a few (being infertile, woman past a certain age, etc) may end up in pregnancy. And it is a fact that no woman can get pregnant all by herself.

It doesn't matter, in this topic, how things are. It is how they should be that matters.
 
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