But you said you were okay with abortion...

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I told you the man only gave raw material, and the woman MADE the baby. You answered by saying that the woman gave raw material too... well, that is not at all contradicting the fact that the woman has spent 9 months working some of her raw material and some of mans raw material to create the baby.

So the man only gave raw material, the baby was made by the woman.

So you're saying that it didn't become a baby until sometime after conception? Interesting.

How long after conception, exactly?

 

[Me Myself]

You're obviously confused. The woman only gave raw material, too. The contribution of two raw materials makes a baby.

Are you to argue that a baby is a baby since conception? If you were, then sure , the woman is to accept her responsibility and not kill it and the man is to accept his responsibility and pay support or raise (depending on the couples agreement)

If not, then the 2 raw materials merely make a zygote, and it is the woman who transforms, with 9 months, that zygote into a baby, so the woman would be the one making the baby.

 

[Me Myself]

So you're saying that it didn't become a baby until sometime after conception? Interesting.

How long after conception, exactly?

For me it is a human being since the conception, sure.

When I argue the case a man must have the choice is in places where women have this choice, and where allegedly the zygote is not a human being until it is born. Then the woman decided to make the baby, even if she didn't decide to make the zygote she decided to make the baby by not aborting.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Are you to argue that a baby is a baby since conception? If you were, then sure , the woman is to accept her responsibility and not kill it and the man is to accept his responsibility and pay support or raise (depending on the couples agreement)

If not, then the 2 raw materials merely make a zygote, and it is the woman who transforms, with 9 months, that zygote into a baby, so the woman would be the one making the baby.

According to you, then, the woman is to accept two terms of responsibility:

1) Not to terminate the pregnancy and to carry it to term
2) To raise the baby

And the man is to accept one term of responsibility:

1) To raise the baby

Is that correct?

 

[Me Myself]

No, I don't. This is why I think your definitions are incomplete (or at least imprecise) and a poor basis for an argument.

Like I said earlier, I consider dictionaries descriptive, not proscriptive. However, you seem to consider the Oxford English Dictionary some sort of authority. I have no idea why you would do this, but consistency demands that if you're continue to hang onto that definition of "child" out of some idea that the OED is authoritative, you must also accept that definition of "human being".

Personally, I'm happy to set both definitions aside and talk about things as they actually are. You're free to do this as well, but this would mean conceding a loss on this argument of yours.

I am assuming it lost, and saying the woman has the right to consider it a "thing" until it is born. But then, she was the one who made this baby, not the man, so she still had the choice and the man didn't.

 

[Me Myself]

According to you, then, the woman is to accept two terms of responsibility:

1) Not to terminate the pregnancy and to carry it to term
2) To raise the baby

And the man is to accept one term of responsibility:

1) To raise the baby

Is that correct?

Both have the responsibility to not kill the baby o.0. Actually, everyone has that responsibility.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I am assuming it lost, and saying the woman has the right to consider it a "thing" until it is born. But then, she was the one who made this baby, not the man, so she still had the choice and the man didn't.

Both the man and the woman had instrumental roles.

I don't understand this mentality. Just because the baby isn't a baby right from conception doesn't mean that the man didn't have anything to do with the baby existing.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Both have the responsibility to not kill the baby o.0. Actually, everyone has that responsibility.

Nice spin.

Who's responsibility is it to raise the baby?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Or better yet....what is the man's responsibility while the woman is pregnant?

 

[Me Myself]

Both the man and the woman had instrumental roles.

I don't understand this mentality. Just because the baby isn't a baby right from conception doesn't mean that the man didn't have anything to do with the baby existing.

he had something to do with the zygote existing, not the baby.

If I leave my mechanical engineering kit at your house and you use it to make a robot and the robot explodes and kills 6 people, that's your fault. I only gave you the parts.

Or in this case, I would have contributed for part of the intelligence or AI of the robot, say I let it in your house. You boost it up with your AI machinations and make this new AI and now use it and the robot kills someone.

I am not going to jail! I didn't tell you to use my AI for that! I merely left it at your house!

 

[Sunstone]

Or better yet....what is the man's responsibility while the woman is pregnant?

I'm a staunch believer in the rule that the man should fetch his own beer during his partner's pregnancy. At least during the third trimester.

 

[Me Myself]

Nice spin.

Who's responsibility is it to raise the baby?

Both, or any of them who can. The other should absolutely pay child support.

Or better yet....what is the man's responsibility while the woman is pregnant?

I would say the man should at least pay half of any medical treatment for the baby and the mother. I doubt this law exists today... but I think it should.

 

[Me Myself]

I'm a staunch believer in the rule that the man should fetch his own beer during his partner's pregnancy. At least during the third trimester.

thats an abomination! 0_0

damn you liberals! :cover:

 

[Willamena]

Are you to argue that a baby is a baby since conception? If you were, then sure , the woman is to accept her responsibility and not kill it and the man is to accept his responsibility and pay support or raise (depending on the couples agreement)

If not, then the 2 raw materials merely make a zygote, and it is the woman who transforms, with 9 months, that zygote into a baby, so the woman would be the one making the baby.

I think you're mistaken again. Both parents have the same responsibility not to kill anyone. They also both have the same responsibility to pay support to the child.

But this is about Ana and Bill, not abortion. Both have an equal responsibility to the child's welfare. Even in Equador.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

he had something to do with the zygote existing, not the baby.

But the baby existing has something to do with the zygote.

If I leave my mechanical engineering kit at your house and you use it to make a robot and the robot explodes and kills 6 people, that's your fault. I only gave you the parts.

Or in this case, I would have contributed for part of the intelligence or AI of the robot, say I let it in your house. You boost it up with your AI machinations and make this new AI and now use it and the robot kills someone.

I am not going to jail! I didn't tell you to use my AI for that! I merely left it at your house!

A more apt analogy would be if you and I both turned the taps on for the bathtub, left, and I never came back to turn it off before the tub overflowed and it leaked into the apartment downstairs.

"I shouldn't have to pay for the damage! There wasn't a flood when I left! Me turning on the taps had nothing to do with it!"

 

[Me Myself]

A more apt analogy would be if you and I both turned the taps on for the bathtub, left, and I never came back to turn it off before the tub overflowed and it leaked into the apartment downstairs.

"I shouldn't have to pay for the damage! There wasn't a flood when I left! Me turning on the taps had nothing to do with it!"

It would be more apt, as long as we were in your house and you knew that the bathtub was still running like 8 months before the flood

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It would be more apt, as long as we were in your house and you knew that the bathtub was still running like 8 months before the flood

But you do get my point, right?

Even if I decide not to turn off the taps or pull the drain plug, the flood is the logical consequence of what you and I did together... even though we didn't have a flood at the moment we turned on the taps.

 

[Me Myself]

But you do get my point, right?

Even if I decide not to turn off the taps or pull the drain plug, the flood is the logical consequence of what you and I did together... even though we didn't have a flood at the moment we turned on the taps.

you say that if we were in your apartment, and we both left the bathtub on and you knew, KNEW that the water was flowing and that there WOULD BE a flood and you were the only one who could do something about it, AND CHOOSE not to, it will legally be partly my fault when the bathtub floods your house and I should be paying something to you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

you say that if we were in your apartment, and we both left the bathtub on and you knew, KNEW that the water was flowing and that there WOULD BE a flood and you were the only one who could do something about it, AND CHOOSE not to, it will legally be partly my fault when the bathtub floods your house and I should be paying something to you?

No, not to me. We would both have to pay to the flooded person downstairs who didn't have anything to do with our decision to turn those taps on in the first place.

 

[Willamena]

Hands up, everybody who wants to know what these two are doing in the bath together.