But you said you were okay with abortion...

[MysticSang'ha]

You make perfect sense to me. If you can't handle the risks, don't engage in the behavior. Unplanned pregnancy just isn't something women do to men. It's something men and women do together. I'm really surprised so many men seem to feel like it isn't fair that she "gets to" decide whether or not to have an abortion. Who the hell do they think should be making a decision like that that for her, and how does that make them somehow not responsible for getting her pregnant in the first place?

It's the "so what" attitude toward the risks and complications from menstruation, from pregnancy, from childbirth, from post-partum, and from menopause.

It's almost as if when we present this as a fact of life to some men......SOME men (not all).....that it's taken as some sort of challenge to a competition.

Me: "After 4 months of severe nausea and vomiting and being under close supervision by a doctor for weight loss, I experienced normal weight gain until the middle of the third trimester when my blood sugar levels were starting to borderline into gestational diabetes. I wound up having a 15 hour painful back labor, pushed for 3 hours, the midwife was almost able to turn my son back around to have a safer delivery when the OBGYN walked in, grabbed the forceps, dug them into my vagina, and started yanking his head. I started losing blood and almost hemorraghed, the team then cut into my perineum so that I could better push the baby out. After another 30 minutes of people running back and forth trying to stop the bleeding, getting the baby out before he suffered from too much distress, and being cut into more and more while I was awake and lucid, at 4'11" I pushed out a baby that weighed 8 pounds 8 ounces.

I was still under close supervision with the blood loss since the placenta delivery was even more difficult. I heard my son crying, but then people after making sure he was okay were doing what they could to stop the bleeding with me.

This is me, a real life situation in 1990's United States, having complications and facing the real life risks of pregnancy and childbirth. It wasn't just a situation of "Ouch! That's painful!"

Women face monumental risks from pregnancy and childbirth. Much more than varying levels of discomfort, nausea, and pain."

Some men (not all, but some): "So what?"

Me: "I think it's important that women have the choice to decide whether or not they're willing to put their bodies and health at risk to carry a pregnancy to term."

Some men (not all, but some): "Oh yeah? Well, if SHE can choose to have an abortion, then HE should be able to decide whether or not to face a loss of asset acquisition....because, you know.....it's EXACTLY the same kind of grief that a woman has to face with pregnancy."

Me: "My health was at severe risk. I chose to carry the pregnancy to term. But not all women should be forced to face that bodily risk."

Some men (not all, but some): "So what? Yeah yeah yeah, pregnancy and childbirth hurts yadda yadda yadda I GET THAT. But you can't make a man face a devastating loss of income every month just because you pushed something out of a vagina and it was uncomfortable. Forcing a man to pay is horrible. It's unfair. Think of him, why don't you? Why are you going on and on about how your birth story is SOOOO important? Are you just wanting the attention? You want a trophy or something from pushing a baby out? Like I said.....SO WHAT? It's more important that the man is suffering from making support payments! Stop making it about your real life birth story!!"

Now that I got that fun stuff out of my system, I have to playfully muse....

Sooooooo, property acquisition is being equated to what happens to a woman's body.....this sounds really familiar, but I can't quite place where I've heard comparisons like this before.....hmmmmm. *taps forehead*

 

[Me Myself]

Men "didn't sign up" for a woman having his baby? Do they think she signed up for it?

If I leave the sink of your bathtub open and forgot to turn it off you KNOW I did but purposefully do not turn it off (not because you have forgotten it is on but simply because you chose not to) Whose really at fault if your bathroom floor floods?

If I knew that for some reason, you WILL find out before the flood if I let your bathtub on when I forgot too, then it is even less my responsibility.

The current law says there is no human being yet till 9th month. The women accepted the human being to happen whether she wanted it initially or not. The man didn't.

Hence, she had an extra right to choose given by the law, one that is not given to the man. Hence, it is unequal.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

She gets pregnant. She has the option to have the abortion like she agreed to. If she does, everything stays the same. If she doesn't, the father has no responsibility, since that's not what he signed up for.

In an unwanted pregnancy, it's not like the woman signed up for a choice between abortion and having a child either.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that a man should be able to opt out of paying for at least an abortion - or that abortions should be covered by taxes. The suggestion is that perhaps one person making the most expensive life-altering decision for someone else without their consent is unjust.

The man isn't being asked to pay for the most expensive option. The man isn't required to pay for all of the latest and greatest child furniture, fashions, and accessories, or for 12 years of private school... the man is only asked to pay for half of the reasonable costs.

And speaking of what is reasonable, I brought up a point in that other thread that you never really addressed: in any other situation, when one person's actions affect the amount that another owes, that first person is only obligated to limit costs to keep them within the range of what is reasonable. If you want to argue that the man should not be liable for the costs of raising a child, I think you first need to demonstrate that having the child and raising it is an unreasonable course of action in this situation.

I continue to await your demonstration.

 

[Willamena]

If I leave the sink of your bathtub open and forgot to turn it off you KNOW I did but purposefully do not turn it off (not because you have forgotten it is on but simply because you chose not to) Whose really at fault if your bathroom floor floods?

Obviously it's the plumbing sub-contractor, who made it possible for the knob to be turned.

 

[InfidelRiot]

I am pro-choice, not just for women, but also for men. If a woman can decided to abort or keep the child, the man should also be allowed equal compensation in deciding whether or not he wants to support the child when the woman gives birth.

 

[NIX]

It's like people are playing connect the dots on hard drugs in these threads.

 

[Willamena]

I am pro-choice, not just for women, but also for men. If a woman can decided to abort or keep the child, the man should also be allowed equal compensation in deciding whether or not he wants to support the child when the woman gives birth.

And that's fine, it's your opinion, but the law provides for the child.

 

[Scott C.]

I believe the man should share the financial responsibility for the child. It's his son or daughter and he shares responsibility for the pregancy and the child. I find it reprehensible that a man would think he's not responsible for the child he conceived, based on the fact that he thought the woman would abort the fetus. It's amazing the messed up situations that arise by people thinking they can have sex for personal gratification with no responsibility, as if partners are their personal toys and children are the unwanted and unfortunate consequence.

 

[ChristineES]

If I leave the sink of your bathtub open and forgot to turn it off you KNOW I did but purposefully do not turn it off (not because you have forgotten it is on but simply because you chose not to) Whose really at fault if your bathroom floor floods?

If I knew that for some reason, you WILL find out before the flood if I let your bathtub on when I forgot too, then it is even less my responsibility.

The current law says there is no human being yet till 9th month. The women accepted the human being to happen whether she wanted it initially or not. The man didn't.

Hence, she had an extra right to choose given by the law, one that is not given to the man. Hence, it is unequal.

If a man has sex with a woman, she may get pregnant and have a baby. It is not unequal-- just because the woman is the one who carries the baby does not mean the baby is not equally his child. We have already discussed what a man can do to keep from having a baby. It may not seem fair that the man can't decide what the woman does with the pregnancy, but do you think it is equal for a woman to gain weight, have morning sickness, have many complications at risk (I had toxemia in my first pregnancy-- I could have died). I had borderline gestational diabetes in my second. During the 3rd trimester, I had to have my husband tie my shoes for me because I couldn't reach my feet. Any "equality" is covered.

 

[InfidelRiot]

We have already discussed what a man can do to keep from having a baby.

The same can be stated for a woman. There are also preventative measures for her. I have already posted above that if the woman has the right to get an abortion, to not want to support a child, then it should also be a man's right to not support a child the woman decides to birth. Pro-choice for women and men.

 

[ChristineES]

The same can be stated for a woman. There are also preventative measures for her. I have already posted above that if the woman has the right to get an abortion, to not want to support a child, then it should also be a man's right to not support a child the woman decides to birth. Pro-choice for women and men.

We've also discussed ways women can keep from birth, too. And a man should take care of any baby he is father to-- no ifs, ands, or buts. Most women don't go up to a man, put a newborn in his arms and say "It's yours, you take care of it" and walk away. Why should the mother be the only parent taking care of the baby? I don't care if the man didn't want it-- he helped make it. It is a consequence of having sex-- and a woman shouldn't have to deal with those consequences all by herself since she didn't make the baby all by herself. Edit: And he shouldn't expect her to abort it just because he doesn't want it.

 

[InfidelRiot]

women don't go up to a man, put a newborn in his arms and say "It's yours, you take care of it" and walk away.

I guess you don't watch True Blood.

 

[Willamena]

This is the only civilized consideration that need factor into the issue.

 

[Alceste]

The same can be stated for a woman. There are also preventative measures for her. I have already posted above that if the woman has the right to get an abortion, to not want to support a child, then it should also be a man's right to not support a child the woman decides to birth. Pro-choice for women and men.

But the woman does NOT have the right to not take care of a living, born child. She only has one additional birth control option that is still available to her after all other options have been exhausted. If she decides to go through with the pregnancy for which they are both equally responsible, a child may be the result.

It amazes me that some men would use the possibility of abortion as an excuse not to take any responsibility for their own behavior, or to take care of their own born children. This may shock you, but people have mixed feelings about abortion. You simply can not expect women to decide to have abortions as casually as you might decide to wear a condom.

 

[Me Myself]

But the woman does NOT have the right to not take care of a living, born child. She only has one additional birth control option that is still available to her after all other options have been exhausted. If she decides to go through with the pregnancy for which they are both equally responsible, a child may be the result.

It amazes me that some men would use the possibility of abortion as an excuse not to take any responsibility for their own behavior, or to take care of their own born children.

Why? Women use abortion itself for that. At least the man wouldn't be killing anyone

 

[Me Myself]

We've also discussed ways women can keep from birth, too. And a man should take care of any baby he is father to-- no ifs, ands, or buts. Most women don't go up to a man, put a newborn in his arms and say "It's yours, you take care of it" and walk away. Why should the mother be the only parent taking care of the baby? I don't care if the man didn't want it-- he helped make it. It is a consequence of having sex-- and a woman shouldn't have to deal with those consequences all by herself since she didn't make the baby all by herself. Edit: And he shouldn't expect her to abort it just because he doesn't want it.

false, it is a consequence of actually HAVING the baby, which the woman decide to do.

 

[Me Myself]

If a man has sex with a woman, she may get pregnant and have a baby. It is not unequal-- just because the woman is the one who carries the baby does not mean the baby is not equally his child. We have already discussed what a man can do to keep from having a baby. It may not seem fair that the man can't decide what the woman does with the pregnancy, but do you think it is equal for a woman to gain weight, have morning sickness, have many complications at risk (I had toxemia in my first pregnancy-- I could have died). I had borderline gestational diabetes in my second. During the 3rd trimester, I had to have my husband tie my shoes for me because I couldn't reach my feet. Any "equality" is covered.

Oh I am not saying at all for the man to decide what the woman should have with their body. Simply decide if they want the baby or not, just like the woman decided. If the woman wants the baby, its hers! if she doesnt, she can flush it out in a pool of blood! if the man wants the baby... well as long as the woman doesnt flush it out he might have it and if he doesnt, well, he should be at least given the chance to not have it, just as the woman did.

 

[Renji]

Oh I am not saying at all for the man to decide what the woman should have with their body. Simply decide if they want the baby or not, just like the woman decided. If the woman wants the baby, its hers! if she doesnt, she can flush it out in a pool of blood! if the man wants the baby... well as long as the woman doesnt flush it out he might have it and if he doesnt, well, he should be at least given the chance to not have it, just as the woman did.

Can't see the angle of "being fair" in that post.

 

[Renji]

false, it is a consequence of actually HAVING the baby, which the woman decide to do.

I think what Christine says is that being a parent is the "product" ( or a possible effect) if having sex, knowing that there is a possibility of having a baby after some time. And it is the right of that child to be with his father. No ifs or buts.

 

[Me Myself]

I think what Christine says is that being a parent is the "product" ( or a possible effect) if having sex, knowing that there is a possibility of having a baby after some time. And it is the right of that child to be with his father. No ifs or buts.

Actually that part has many ifs and buts given not only current legislation but I also would say morality in general. I dont think you thought it true when you said no ifs or buts neither o.o

Going to sleep for now though. Be well man!