But you said you were okay with abortion...

[Koldo]

People don't have "rights" to "own" a child in Canada.

I didn't mean it like this though.
By rights, i meant the right to visit, to request guardianship, etc.

 

[Koldo]

Why? Because it's a man's body affected rather than a woman's?

Why it isn't as severe?
Because there is another being involved in this case that is going to be born pretty soon.

 

[Koldo]

With respect to child support, if "Harry" doesn't want any risk of paying it, he should be wearing a condom, properly, every time. He might even want to have some morning after pills on hand in case it breaks, since the less time Ana has to dwell on the broken condom, the less chance there is that she will change her mind and decide to turn an "accident" into an "opportunity"! If Harry decides to take no steps of his own to prevent an unplanned pregnancy, including leaving the entire issue of birth control up to Ana to figure out, he's an idiot. He can't suddenly decide he wants to control the outcome after all his opportunities to do so have passed and he failed to take advantage of them.

Condoms have a considerable failure rate even in perfect usage.
Plus, Harry can't force Ana to take morning after pills.

 

[Alceste]

Condoms have a considerable failure rate even in perfect usage.
Plus, Harry can't force Ana to take morning after pills.

Two percent? That's not so bad. Why are you hung up on "forcing" her to do anything? Offer them, I said. Offer. As in, "Gosh, too bad about the condom breaking, but if you're worried about pregnancy it just so happens I have these morning after pills lying around... you're welcome to them if you like."

 

[McBell]

Saying that paying child support is equal to slavery is completely underestimating the actual cost in time and money to actually raise the child.

It is interesting how this fact has been completely ignored in all three threads...

interesting because one claims to be arguing from a "fairness" angle and another claims to be clinging to "truth"...

 

[Alceste]

It is interesting how this fact has been completely ignored in all three threads...

interesting because one claims to be arguing from a "fairness" angle and another claims to be clinging to "truth"...

No kidding. "It's not fair that I have to take steps to avoid making a woman pregnant if I don't believe in abortion! If I knock a woman up, she should just have to bear my children! Why? Because I said so and she has to do what I say! Otherwise it's not fair! But it's not fair that I have to help raise them! Wah wah wah!"

Nix pointed out that life's not fair, but it made no difference.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I hope you're right, but I've seen a lot of grown men with children kvetching and moaning about having to still pay child support after they've left the mother and kids to fend for themselves. My aunt's ex-husband gave her three boys, stuck around until they were a few years old, then ran off with his secretary. He liked to live in a big house and drive flashy cars, and every month was a massive battle to try to get child support out of him. He didn't want to give her one thin dime to raise his kids, but every Christmas he'd buy them the most expensive, flashy presents. Kind of a bribe, I guess, but they just saw it as "HEY! LOOK HOW MUCH MONEY ME AND MY NEW FAMILY HAVE! WE CAN AFFORD TO THROW IT AWAY! HOPE THIS PLAYSTATION TAKES YOUR MIND OFF BEING POOR FOR A WHILE!"

Two of those kids are drug addicts now and the youngest just got his g/f pregnant. The oldest is not a drug addict - he's a married father of two. He had a lifetime of practice "being the dad", starting when he was about 8, so he's really good at it.

Oh, I'm fully aware of the many stories...ones I know of and have lived through....but I gotta keep thinking that after discussing the impact that if/when the guys who hold on to the line of thinking that becoming a father when you weren't wanting to is "unfair" will eventually reconsider that position. And then will be able to discuss the matter with their partner with maturity and reason on what to do next.

 

[Alceste]

Oh, I'm fully aware of the many stories...ones I know of and have lived through....but I gotta keep thinking that after discussing the impact that if/when the guys who hold on to the line of thinking that becoming a father when you weren't wanting to is "unfair" will eventually reconsider that position. And then will be able to discuss the matter with their partner with maturity and reason on what to do next.

Well, a few hard cases aside, doing one's best to be a father to one's kids does seem to be the norm.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

He was aware of that. But Ana told him she wouldn't mind the abortion so he was at ease with this.

So what? It's her body.

Alternative scenario: Harry and Ana agree to have sex. Afterward, Ana decides that she doesn't want to have sex, but Harry has sex with her anyway. Has he committed rape?

Bonus question: if a woman's right to control what happens to her body allows her to change her mind about having sex, why shouldn't it allow her to change her mind about having an abortion?

 

[Alceste]

So what? It's her body.

Alternative scenario: Harry and Ana agree to have sex. Afterward, Ana decides that she doesn't want to have sex, but Harry has sex with her anyway. Has he committed rape?

Bonus question: if a woman's right to control what happens to her body allows her to change her mind about having sex, why shouldn't it allow her to change her mind about having an abortion?

Or this: They agree to have an abortion, then Ana gets pregnant and Harry decides he wants the baby after all. Can he force her not to have the abortion?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So what? It's her body.

Alternative scenario: Harry and Ana agree to have sex. Afterward, Ana decides that she doesn't want to have sex, but Harry has sex with her anyway. Has he committed rape?

Bonus question: if a woman's right to control what happens to her body allows her to change her mind about having sex, why shouldn't it allow her to change her mind about having an abortion?

According to the opposing side, she shouldn't be allowed to change her mind because there's another human being to consider that trumps her autonomy.

It's the same argument used against women who want to work outside the home.

Against women who sexually teased men "too much" and needed to consider his out-of-control hormones were calling the shots.

Against women who are compelled to lead in the house, the congregation, or in government.

Abortion is no different....a woman's mind and body isn't as important as the husband's wishes, the rapists out-of-control tendencies, the deity who commanded her to stay quiet, and here the viability of the unborn fetus.

Sad, really.

 

[lunakilo]

Oh. It is another name for whipped cream.

Causes you to get fat another way
There are probably healthier ways to stay not-pregnant ...

The most common methods of birth control always have a small chance of not working properly though.

But you usually know if the condom broke, and you can take one of those ups-I-messed-up-pills if that happens.

 

[Debater Slayer]

According to the opposing side, she shouldn't be allowed to change her mind because there's another human being to consider that trumps her autonomy.

I have a solution for this: we all become platypuses. I mean, think about it... we get to stay mammals and have the advantage of not fighting over abortion of eggs.

We'd also look this good:

Personally, I'm in for the change.

 

[Koldo]

Two percent? That's not so bad.

Consider the millions of people who use it.
It fails thousands and thousands of times.

Why are you hung up on "forcing" her to do anything? Offer them, I said. Offer. As in, "Gosh, too bad about the condom breaking, but if you're worried about pregnancy it just so happens I have these morning after pills lying around... you're welcome to them if you like."

Because she can reject it.
Harry can't force her to take the morning after pill.
There is only so much he can do.

 

[Alex_G]

I agree with most of what you're saying, but at the end there where you equate child support payments with "slavery", are you arguing that BOTH the mother and the father should be able to "break their bonds of slavery"by paying nothing to raise their child, or just the father? If it's a breach of BOTH their human rights to obligate them to spend money on raising their child, what should they do with it? Leave it outside with the dogs?

Sorry for the delay in responding, had gone to bed not that long after posting!

Ye ok that last paragraph was slightly extreme, which prob wasnt too sensible of me. << >> But its never as fun until someone plays the slavery card

My point regarding the slavery relates to being allowed a say in the matter. The female has the choice to take the pregnancy to term, or to have an early abortion, which for arguments sake you could assume as being a free choice on her part given there not be any special circumstances in personal/cultural preference regarding the decision that would bias her choice one way or the other. So the female is only ‘enslaved’ by the mighty task of raising a child by virtue of her express decision to keep the pregnancy. (Something she should take into consideration when making such a choice). Because the decision to keep is more than simply not choosing the abortion, it includes the adoption of responsibility for the child until they are legal adults, which is no small task. A decision that should really be made irrespective of the male, ‘with or without him’, but instead her decision to keep, and thus take on the responsibility speaks for him as well without him getting a say. A pretty damn big decision to be allowed to be made on the part of someone else.


So in contrast to this, the male who lets say for arguments sake has sexual relations with the woman for mutual pleasure purposes, in a situation where both didn’t want to get pregnant as evident by employing clear contraceptive measures, and was not much more than a casual acquaintance with the woman. I think it’s reasonable that the male could assume if an accident occurred the desire to not get pregnant still stands, and the default course of action being to rectify it, especially if there’s nothing he could know to suggest otherwise. When she decides to keep she changes the agreement. And most importantly, I think that to equate the male partners involvement in the sex described above as strong enough evidence to show a choice to support a potential child through to a legal adult is one hell of a leap, and for it to be enforceable to all such men is where the lack of choice or say comes in, which isn’t really very fair.


I’m really mounting an argument against such support being enforceable in all scenarios without question, or at least pointing out where I think it has issues worth noting.
Im really not trying to defend people who should support but dont, or dont want to for the wrong reasons. The morality of it i think can only be analysed on a case by case basis.

 

[Pegg]

Imagine the following scenario:

'Harry is dating Ana. They thoroughly spoke about how an unplanned pregnancy would be dealt it, and it was agreed that abortion would be an acceptable method. Months later, Ana got pregnant. And she decided she wouldn't go through the abortion anymore. Ana didn't try to deceive Harry when she agreed with abortion back then; she simply had a change of mind after she got pregnant.'

Both sides ( Harry and Ana ) agree to this version of the story.

How should the judiciary system ( laws ) deal with this situation?
Should Ana be forced to undergo an abortion ( of her fetus ), even though her health is being ( more or less ) compromised by this invasive procedure ?
Should Harry be forced to financially support the newborn, even though Ana had previously agreed to abort the fetus in cases of unplanned pregnancy ?
Should Harry be able to renounce his rights to the child to avoid financially supporting it?
How should this issue be settled?

Harry needs to accept that Ana has changed her mind about killing their baby. Men must accept that the choice rests with the woman. If she is not willing to abort, then that child is as much his as it is hers.

 

[Koldo]

So what? It's her body.

Alternative scenario: Harry and Ana agree to have sex. Afterward, Ana decides that she doesn't want to have sex, but Harry has sex with her anyway. Has he committed rape?

Yes.

"John and Mary agree that vasectomy is the best choice for them. At the day of the procedure John decides he doesn't want to do it anymore, but he doesn't tell Mary about it. Months later, Mary gets pregnant." Has he committed a crime?

Bonus question: if a woman's right to control what happens to her body allows her to change her mind about having sex, why shouldn't it allow her to change her mind about having an abortion?

She can change her mind.

 

[Koldo]

Or this: They agree to have an abortion, then Ana gets pregnant and Harry decides he wants the baby after all. Can he force her not to have the abortion?

With a slight change it becomes a good question: Should he be able to force her not to have the abortion?

 

[Koldo]

But you usually know if the condom broke, and you can take one of those ups-I-messed-up-pills if that happens.

Harry can't force Ana to take one of these pills though.

 

[lunakilo]

Harry can't force Ana to take one of these pills though.

No he cannot (he probable could, but he definitely shouldn't) force Ana to that that pill. He can ask and Ana can decide to say no thank you.
You are correct that it is impossible for Harry and Ana to be 100% sure that Ana will not get pregnant if they had sex.
They can only make sure that it is very unlikely that she will get pregnant.

So, let us assume they made every effort known to man (and woman ) to ensure that Ana didn't get pregnant when they had sex but she got pregnant anyway.

It still doesn't change the facts
* That both Ana and Harry should have known about this risk.
* That Ana is a moron for making a promise she had no way of knowing if she would be able to keep.
* That Harry is a moron for not realizing that Ana could change her mind
* That Ana has broken her word to Harry by not having the agreed upon abortion, and in my opinion has no MORAL right to require Harry to help support the baby
* That Harry is the father of the baby whether he wants to be or not and unless Ana raped him he is as responsible for making the baby as Ana is
* That Ana has the LEGAL right to require Harry to help support the baby