By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[YoursTrue]

I'd like to add just as Adam became a living soul until Adam died.
God breathed the breath of life into lifeless Adam - Genesis 2:7 - than Adam came to life.
So, Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned back to non-life.
A person can Not return to a place he never was before, so Adam simply returned back to the dust of the ground.

Yes. I am quoting from two translations of Genesis 2:7 - one says being, the other says soul. Either way, Adam BECAME a living being or soul. He was not before that.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Then the LORD God formed the man out of the dust from the ground and breathed the breath of life into his nostrils, and the man became a living being.
American Standard Version
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Often in ways intended to deride my faith too.

Well, I posted the definition of faith, explained the definition of faith, you said you had faith, said you knew God but continue to ask for man’s objective evidence of that faith that is only found by a person having their own personal encounter with the Living God, who will provide each person that witness when they come to Him through Jesus Christ.
The rest of humanity, if they reject Jesus Christ and make their own demands of God for proof any other way will get that proof at White Throne Judgement or Death. Romans 1 says the visible creation we live in is evidence enough of the invisible God and Creator and that’s accurate.
Now since none of the skeptics or other people who claim to have evidence that anything in the Bible is a myth or just stories or not true, you must've been there and made that observation and can show all your evidence and findings to the contrary, present your complete and thorough account with your objective evidence on how that
happened with your witnesses ( on a different thread) because we @YoursTrue and others were enjoying fellowship before some people attempted to ruin and derail it. By not answering the ORIGINAL QUESTION presented As a Christian, be specific on what you consider to be true.
As for me, I am presenting you The Lord Jesus Christ, The King of the Universe, The Creator of everything as the One and Only God who gave us His account as written in the Bible in many languages for all people. You can even get a copy of this account right here on this forum, now as a Christian I believe this whole account is true as God has written through men by the Holy Spirit who is also a person and God who is the only person alive that was there and did the work, a beautiful and good work. I praise and honor my King and Lord who has done all these things for us and give Him the Highest Praise! What a Mighty God we serve!
Thank-you

 

[Polymath257]

I translate that into “no answer will be a good answer” for you.

I’m asking no more than I would for the existence of anything else. Why would I make a special exemption for souls?

 

[McBell]

I translate that into “no answer will be a good answer” for you.

Of course you do.
You have to.
Because your position is nothing more than "This is what I believe and I will believe it until it is proven wrong and since just like god, soul cannot be proven to exist outside wishful thinking I know that my belief is perfectly safe"

Personally, I do not have a problem with you clinging to that straw.
I do find it entertaining the lengths you go to in order to convince yourself you have some sort of higher ground with it.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I translate that into “no answer will be a good answer” for you.

I translate your words into "I have no answer that will convince you," and that's undoubtedly correct, but there are two possibilities why that is the case. Either he's a motivated thinker evaluating evidence and arguments through a confirmation bias dedicated to protecting his faith-based belief from your compelling evidenced argument, or, he's an educated and experienced critical thinker who requires evidence that you don't have before believing you.

And if it's the latter, that's either because although you've guessed correctly, you haven't found the evidence yet which confirms that you have, or because you're wrong. Either way, he's correct to dismiss the claims about souls or any other similar claim.

By and large with non-theists and atheists, on this forum, it is more of the pounding of positions that it is a sharing of ideas or thoughts.

This is an interesting phenomenon to me - the difference between the way the faithful and the critical thinkers frame this activity we both participate in here. Each group makes its best arguments, and the former is offended or feels attacked or sees the disagreement as mean-spirited, inappropriate, or immoral. You see yourself as sharing thoughts and those disagreeing with you as pounding their position despite the fact that each is doing the same thing as the other.

Some of it might be the one-sidedness of these discussions. Yes, both sides are making their cases according to their beliefs, values, and agendas, but that's where the symmetry ends. It really is a rout, and the faithful surely sense that and their impotence in these discussions with critical thinkers, who come armed with facts and reasoned arguments.

That might be some of the explanation, but I think the general disdain theists feel for atheists plays a role as well, since so many Abrahamists have been taught that these discussion are battles between good versus evil and that atheists are bad people with bad intent, trying to make themselves gods in order to live licentious, hedonistic lives unaccountably.

Whatever the explanation, see if you don't notice that I'm correct here. Whenever you read some form of "you're a meanie" in these threads, it will always be a believer directing it to somebody rebutting him and never the other direction.

 

[YoursTrue]

I’m asking no more than I would for the existence of anything else. Why would I make a special exemption for souls?

I have come to the understanding that soul=life in a person OR animal. According to the Bible. There are small sides to this, but that can be discussed later perhaps. So I'll keep it brief and maybe another time go into more detail. But the Bible says that God CAN DESTROY both body AND soul in a final judgment. When we go back to the ground (in essence) in death, our bodies decompose. I once worked for a cemetery and it's a pretty gruesome job to unearth a coffin, maybe have to look inside it. Not pretty. So we know the body decomposes. And that in itself is interesting because it starts out as a few cells.
As well, the Hebrew and Greek terms as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal has. If you'd like more information on this, I would be happy to share it with you.

 

[YoursTrue]

Of course you do.
You have to.
Because your position is nothing more than "This is what I believe and I will believe it until it is proven wrong and since just like god, soul cannot be proven to exist outside wishful thinking I know that my belief is perfectly safe"

Personally, I do not have a problem with you clinging to that straw.
I do find it entertaining the lengths you go to in order to convince yourself you have some sort of higher ground with it.

A belief is not necessarily a higher ground, but it can be true. I'm going to say again that gorillas, monkeys and lions do not seem to have such discussions. (There is no "evidence" they do...)

 

[McBell]

A belief is not necessarily a higher ground, but it can be true.

There are a lot of people who believe their beliefs give them some sort of higher ground.
Some of them even wave it around like a flag for all to see.

I'm going to say again that gorillas, monkeys and lions do not seem to have such discussions. (There is no "evidence" they do...)

How much time have you spent around gorillas, monkeys, and lions?
Even watching gorillas in the zoo one can see they do in fact comunicate with each other.
They just do not seem to feel the need to constantly chatter.

You do know that there is a group of gorillas in Africa that communicate with each other and even humans using sign language, right?

 

[F1fan]

Of course you do.
You have to.
Because your position is nothing more than "This is what I believe and I will believe it until it is proven wrong and since just like god, soul cannot be proven to exist outside wishful thinking I know that my belief is perfectly safe"

Personally, I do not have a problem with you clinging to that straw.
I do find it entertaining the lengths you go to in order to convince yourself you have some sort of higher ground with it.

Years ago I came up with a cynical attitude by believers, and that is: It's what I believe therefore how could I possibly be wrong?

I suspect the main reason theists don't have any realization they are incorrect in their beliefs, or that it's even possible they are incorrect, is because they never arrived at their religious conclusions through reasoning via evidence. They adopted their "truth" through passive social learning and it became a sort of integrated set of givens. We non-believers must look like clueless freaks. But I do get a sense that some do have a suspicion that skeptics might be correct, and we see their cognitive dissonance creep in, and then the mental gymnastics to maintain the script.

 

[YoursTrue]

There are a lot of people who believe their beliefs give them some sort of higher ground.
Some of them even wave it around like a flag for all to see.

Right. Like national flags, right?

How much time have you spent around gorillas, monkeys, and lions?
Even watching gorillas in the zoo one can see they do in fact comunicate with each other.
They just do not seem to feel the need to constantly chatter.

You do know that there is a group of gorillas in Africa that communicate with each other and even humans using sign language, right?

That's possible, I haven't looked at that, but I was thinking someone might come up with the idea that "we don't know if gorillas, lions, etc. talk about the possibility of whether God exists..."

 

[YoursTrue]

There are a lot of people who believe their beliefs give them some sort of higher ground.
Some of them even wave it around like a flag for all to see.


How much time have you spent around gorillas, monkeys, and lions?
Even watching gorillas in the zoo one can see they do in fact comunicate with each other.
They just do not seem to feel the need to constantly chatter.

You do know that there is a group of gorillas in Africa that communicate with each other and even humans using sign language, right?

I personally don't like going to zoos, I've been to a couple and was not entranced, but I look forward to different times where people and animals get along, animals are not caged and mistreated. I have a feeling, although gorillas haven't spoken to me about it, that they'd rather not be in a zoo.

 

[YoursTrue]

There are a lot of people who believe their beliefs give them some sort of higher ground.
Some of them even wave it around like a flag for all to see.


How much time have you spent around gorillas, monkeys, and lions?
Even watching gorillas in the zoo one can see they do in fact comunicate with each other.
They just do not seem to feel the need to constantly chatter.

You do know that there is a group of gorillas in Africa that communicate with each other and even humans using sign language, right?

I assume the gorillas are taught by humans, not by gorilla teachers. Although you probably think the teachers are human-apes teaching gorilla-apes. But that's ok. But maybe gorillas will evolve to teach other gorillas sign language and make up words, signs and things like that. Right? Betcha believe that. And then, better yet -- maybe the teacher=gorilla-apes will build cars, or maybe they won't figuring it will pollute the atmosphere, etc. Hey, why not? You or I and others can write a movie script about it! Why not?? make money for a few crackpots...that think hey that's possible...

 

[F1fan]

I have come to the understanding that soul=life in a person OR animal.

The word "soul" tends to be a metaphor for many different ideas, some that are evidence and observed, and others that are not. What you say here is rather mundane. A living organism is a natural process, and science has reduced these processes and has come far in describing and explaining what goes on. Religious folks are eager to find some scrap to pin their God/Creator onto, and soul is one such word/idea.

I'm also suspicious of your tactic here, by defining "soul" as the state of life. But how long until you start adding religious ideas like "spirit" and "god" to soul, and smuggle in these ideas to make them appear credible and evidenced? This will work in Sunday school but not in debate with critical thinkers who know to look for these tricks of language.

According to the Bible.

Rather, according to your interpretation of the Bible, which itself is often vague and makes references to non-factual things like God.

There are small sides to this, but that can be discussed later perhaps. So I'll keep it brief and maybe another time go into more detail. But the Bible says that God CAN DESTROY both body AND soul in a final judgment.

The Bible has no credibility as a book read at face value. There are no Gods known to exist. So what makes your statement here true versus some ideas ancient people believed true? Where is the definitive evidence in the 21st century?

When we go back to the ground (in essence) in death, our bodies decompose. I once worked for a cemetery and it's a pretty gruesome job to unearth a coffin, maybe have to look inside it. Not pretty. So we know the body decomposes. And that in itself is interesting because it starts out as a few cells.

The same with plants, dogs and cats, rats, horses, trees, you name it. Humans are not special biologically. The only reason many humans think humans are special is because humans have decided we are. Talk about bias. But how special is a convicted murderer when they are executed? Jesus was executed too, so does that mean executed people have a specialness that the rest of us don't?

See how interpretation can feed the imagination into false conclusions?

As well, the Hebrew and Greek terms as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal has. If you'd like more information on this, I would be happy to share it with you.

Is doing homework about the broad and historical uses of a word helpful? Words have many meanings and evolve. I learned yesterday that the word "appointed" has a different poiltical meaning today than it did in the 18th century. This difference is import for the Supreme Court in examining the meaning of the 14th Amendment. Back then the results of elections meant the people appointed a candidate to an office. Today this has narrowed to being an officer selected for a political job.

So even if the word "soul" has some varying historical meaning it doesn't suggest what it meant was factual. Modern knowledge has a history of devaluing old meanings and replacing the archaic with practical.

 

[Polymath257]

I assume the gorillas are taught by humans, not by gorilla teachers. Although you probably think the teachers are human-apes teaching gorilla-apes. But that's ok. But maybe gorillas will evolve to teach other gorillas sign language and make up words, signs and things like that. Right? Betcha believe that. And then, better yet -- maybe the teacher=gorilla-apes will build cars, or maybe they won't figuring it will pollute the atmosphere, etc. Hey, why not? You or I and others can write a movie script about it! Why not?? make money for a few crackpots...that think hey that's possible...

Actually, this has happened: gorillas taught by humans to do sign language have 1) invented new words, and 2) taught their young sign language.

This is NOT evolution: it is social learning.

Other apes have 'culture' that varies by location and is passed from adults to young, even without human intervention.

That other great apes don't have the *physical* ability to form spoken language (because of the anatomy of their throat), they do have the *mental* capacity do acquire language. Also, in some cognitive tasks, they can be superior to human beings (like pattern recall).

In many ways, some of the other great apes are where the ancestors of humans were a mere 2 million years ago. That is an instant in the geological time scale.

 

[McBell]

Right. Like national flags, right?

That is one example, yes.

That's possible, I haven't looked at that, but I was thinking someone might come up with the idea that "we don't know if gorillas, lions, etc. talk about the possibility of whether God exists..."

I have no idea what animals talk about amongst themselves.
I am also not arrogant enough to claim that since I do not know that they can not be.

 

[McBell]

Actually, this has happened: gorillas taught by humans to do sign language have 1) invented new words, and 2) taught their young sign language.

This is NOT evolution: it is social learning.

Other apes have 'culture' that varies by location and is passed from adults to young, even without human intervention.

That other great apes don't have the *physical* ability to form spoken language (because of the anatomy of their throat), they do have the *mental* capacity do acquire language. Also, in some cognitive tasks, they can be superior to human beings (like pattern recall).

In many ways, some of the other great apes are where the ancestors of humans were a mere 2 million years ago. That is an instant in the geological time scale.

It basically proves their "no communication between animals" position nothing but wishful thinking.
Though I strongly suspect they will not learn anything from it and continue to promote their belief protecting flat out false narrative.

 

[YoursTrue]

There are a lot of people who believe their beliefs give them some sort of higher ground.
Some of them even wave it around like a flag for all to see.


How much time have you spent around gorillas, monkeys, and lions?
Even watching gorillas in the zoo one can see they do in fact comunicate with each other.
They just do not seem to feel the need to constantly chatter.

You do know that there is a group of gorillas in Africa that communicate with each other and even humans using sign language, right?

Dogs can learn tricks, too. Nothing special about it. So far they can't write books. Perhaps you think they can or will eventually write books, though. Do you think so?

 

[YoursTrue]

It basically proves their "no communication between animals" position nothing but wishful thinking.
Though I strongly suspect they will not learn anything from it and continue to promote their belief protecting flat out false narrative.

Instinct is not the same as building communication systems, like radio and tv. Or maybe you think they just haven't evolved to that point yet. Yes, dogs can learn tricks, so can dolphins and gorillas. Doesn't mean they can read, publish newspapers, unless of course you know something about that.

 

[YoursTrue]

It basically proves their "no communication between animals" position nothing but wishful thinking.
Though I strongly suspect they will not learn anything from it and continue to promote their belief protecting flat out false narrative.

I never said animals do not communicate with each other. They still don't have newspapers and books, radio and TV. You know, I'm sure unwittingly you have really made some things very clear -- to me --

 

[YoursTrue]

That is one example, yes.


I have no idea what animals talk about amongst themselves.
I am also not arrogant enough to claim that since I do not know that they can not be.

I figured about flag waving. Glad you at least agreed with something I said. Flags, flags -- I have a feeling that gorillas can wave flags, too.