By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[ElishaElijah]

Fellowship? Is that what you call it. To me it looks like you are deciding who is and who isn't Christian based on whether they follow your rules. I don't recall our Savior mentioning you or that you set the rules.

I think that is what this thread is all about. Telling others that their relationship with Christ is bogus, because they don't follow the same rules that some chose for themselves. That is what I think.

There are over 2 billion Christians in this world. Groups of them may agree among themselves, but all of them together do not agree on what being a Christian means, how the Bible is best interpreted or what doctrine they follow.

You claim to be Christian. That is all I can know. I may not agree with how you believe, but it would be the height of hubris and conceit for me to claim I know who is and who isn't and whether you are one or not. It may be by their fruits, but since we are all sinners, it behooves us to be damned careful how we decide. As to science, I recommend that you leave it to those that understand it. If you want to learn, just ask or read a book.

And that threat of death, come on. It isn't like you have any say in that.

The Bible is the measure to test who is or who isn’t a Christian, by that Word is how everyone is judged and have to answer to God for.
Death isn’t a threat as you falsely say but a reality that we all will face, that is when everyone will have their objective truth. That’s what I said.
I follow the Lord Jesus Christ, show me anywhere that He denied that the Word of God that we possess is His Word, He upheld and confirmed the whole Bible as His Word, true and authentic.
If a person doesn’t believe that then why would they consider themselves a Christian?

This is what Jesus said, I would say this is objective evidence and when you get that.

”“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16‬:‭19‬-‭31‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

 

[Polymath257]

I'm thinking that maybe gorillas can handle forks, maybe knives to cut their food? Maybe they do not feel the need to use such when they're eating, thouigh. And so did not socially develop it without evolution, of course. What do you think?

Social change is not the same as evolution. While some evolutionary change might be needed in some case for the culture to be possible, they two are mostly unrelated.

Finally! A breath of fresh air.,..lolol! On the other hand -- God gave humans the ability to do certain intellectual things that gorillas and monkeys and turtles cannot. And likewise, humans cannot generally swing from trees for transport. Except Tarzan and the like, of course. Also, the bodies of humans are different in many substantial ways from monkeys and gorillas, despite the comparison and suppositions of evolutionary scientists. So now, which supposed ape-species came first? Human-apes or gorilla=apes? Or um -- a closer combo said by scientists -- the bonobo-ape? So far though I haven't seen the "social conscience" of a chimpanzee-ape or bonobo-ape to wear a religious symbol around their throats, have you?

Humans are also exceptionally good endurance runners (as a species. I am certainly not good at it ).

Once again, species develop over time. There is usually NOT a hard line separation over the course of evolution. So your question of which came first doesn't really make sense. We *can* ask when the different lines of decent split off from each other. And I gave those answers to the best of what we know currently.

Social conscience and religiosity are not the same. I have seen some claims that some chimps show behavior that could be classified as 'religious ritual'. Frankly, I'm not convinced.

But, once again, that is a *social* development and is very different than *evolution*, which is, by definition, genetic. Evolution can give rise to the complex brains required for social development to occur, but after that, the genetics aren't relevant.

Nothing *genetic* changed when humans developed radio, or started to write. Nothing *genetic* changed when humans started to build cities. Those were NOT examples of evolution. They are examples of social change.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

The Bible is the measure to test who is or who isn’t a Christian, by that Word is how everyone is judged and have to answer to God for.
Death isn’t a threat as you falsely say but a reality that we all will face, that is when everyone will have their objective truth. That’s what I said.
I follow the Lord Jesus Christ, show me anywhere that He denied that the Word of God that we possess is His Word, He upheld and confirmed the whole Bible as His Word, true and authentic.
If a person doesn’t believe that then why would they consider themselves a Christian?

This is what Jesus said, I would say this is objective evidence and when you get that.

”“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’ “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”“
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16‬:‭19‬-‭31‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

I know what you believe. That's good for you. All I can say is you claim it.

However, it is my understanding that you don't get to mandate how you believe about things onto others. And whether they take on the mantle of your personal beliefs or not regarding Christianity, isn't a measure of their salvation. Whether you turn to the Bible or not, it is YOU that is dispensing judgment.

It is not false to recognize an implied threat of doom and it is often the last resort commentary from those that believe Christianity a certain way. I find hubris in anyone making that sort of passive aggressive implied threat as if they could.

If you are truly Saved, then I rejoice for you. But you don't get to dictate who is and who isn't.

 

[Polymath257]

The Bible is the measure to test who is or who isn’t a Christian, by that Word is how everyone is judged and have to answer to God for.

According to *your* belief system. Others, who also believe in the divinity of Jesus, disagree. They are also legitimately Christian, but by different standards than yours.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I know what you believe. That's good for you. All I can say is you claim it.

However, it is my understanding that you don't get to mandate how you believe about things onto others. And whether they take on the mantle of your personal beliefs or not regarding Christianity, isn't a measure of their salvation. Whether you turn to the Bible or not, it is YOU that is dispensing judgment.

It is not false to recognize an implied threat of doom and it is often the last resort commentary from those that believe Christianity a certain way. I find hubris in anyone making that sort of passive aggressive implied threat as if they could.

If you are truly Saved, then I rejoice for you. But you don't get to dictate who is and who isn't.

You asked for proof and objective evidence of what I have obtained, you said you were a Christian but talk like an unbeliever who doesn’t understand spiritual things or believe what Jesus said. Probably just let it go at that, even Jesus tells us when we we obtain the objective evidence of God.
Each person gets that when they are born again or at death and the Judgement. Not sure why this is so hard to grasp. Why would anyone be upset with that? Everyone has the same opportunity, same Bible, same Creation to observe God’s invisible attributes.

 

[ElishaElijah]

According to *your* belief system. Others, who also believe in the divinity of Jesus, disagree. They are also legitimately Christian, but by different standards than yours.

Not sure why you’re even commenting since you don’t know or understand the Bible, you couldn’t even bring yourself to post the end of Ecclesiastes (your favorite Bible book) for skeptics on what the wisest man’s conclusion was after all was said.
What does the Bible say on who is a Christian, if you know? By the way, the devil believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ and trembles.
Again for the many, many times The Bible is the standard and Word of God for all Christians.
I have the Word of God and the Holy Spirt, you have some skulls and bones to interpret.

 

[metis]

I understand. It was like the snake talking to Eve.

serpent

 

[metis]

I think that is what this thread is all about. Telling others that their relationship with Christ is bogus, because they don't follow the same rules that some chose for themselves. That is what I think.

You're not the only one.

Ditto, and Jesus' teaching that there are only Two Commandments that one must follow is blown off.

 

[Muffled]

I do not think that you understand. You declared that all of the supposed events of the flood did not happen. That was the implication of your local flood claim. In other words you are saying that the purpose of the Flood was not the one given in the Bible. Your version of the flood would allow people to avoid it by taking to the high grounds

I do not believe I declared that.

I believe a local flood still fits in with the text.

I believe I am not saying that.

I believe floods rarely give people a chance to escape. The water comes in a rush and there is no where to go. The only way to escape is to already be on a boat or have one handy.

 

[Muffled]

Of course, you can believe whatever you want, Muffled, but I disagree with your personal religious beliefs and don't consider them to be objective facts.

I believe I don't give a flying fickle finger of fate for supposed objective facts. Facts can deceive.

 

[Muffled]

What objective test will distinguish a supernatural event from an imaginary event in the absence of objective evidence?

I believe there is none. When it comes to history one would have to time travel back to the event to witness it first hand but I still think listening to what God says works better since He was there and witnessed the events.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do not believe I declared that.

You did, but didn't understand how you did that.

I believe a local flood still fits in with the text.

That would be an error on your part. You make the boat unneeded. It would only kill a fraction of humanity. You would only kill local animals. Even for Noah and family to survive they would only need a fishing pole.

I believe I am not saying that.

Yes, creationist rarely understand the consequences of what they say.

I believe floods rarely give people a chance to escape. The water comes in a rush and there is no where to go. The only way to escape is to already be on a boat or have one handy.

Ummmm . . . no. That is not how most floods work. And you wanted a local flood. One can go up.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I believe I don't give a flying fickle finger of fate for supposed objective facts. Facts can deceive.

And religious beliefs can be deceptive. I doubt that you believe that other people's non-Christian beliefs are correct. In fact, I doubt you believe that other Christians with differing doctrines and scriptural interpretations are correct in their beliefs. I can say this because I've read your prior posts on these topics.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Fellowship? Is that what you call it. To me it looks like you are deciding who is and who isn't Christian based on whether they follow your rules. I don't recall our Savior mentioning you or that you set the rules.

I think that is what this thread is all about. Telling others that their relationship with Christ is bogus, because they don't follow the same rules that some chose for themselves. That is what I think.

There are over 2 billion Christians in this world. Groups of them may agree among themselves, but all of them together do not agree on what being a Christian means, how the Bible is best interpreted or what doctrine they follow.

You claim to be Christian. That is all I can know. I may not agree with how you believe, but it would be the height of hubris and conceit for me to claim I know who is and who isn't and whether you are one or not. It may be by their fruits, but since we are all sinners, it behooves us to be damned careful how we decide. As to science, I recommend that you leave it to those that understand it. If you want to learn, just ask or read a book.

And that threat of death, come on. It isn't like you have any say in that.

Well said, Dan.

 

[Polymath257]

Not sure why you’re even commenting since you don’t know or understand the Bible, you couldn’t even bring yourself to post the end of Ecclesiastes (your favorite Bible book) for skeptics on what the wisest man’s conclusion was after all was said.

I have no problem quoting the end of Ecclesiastes: "Fear God and keep his commandments, for that is the whole duty of everyone.
For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every secret thing, whether good or evil".

Now, does that follow from anything previous to this? For example,
"For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other.
They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is
vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knows
whether the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward to the
earth? So I saw that there is nothing better than that all should enjoy their work, for that
is their lot; who can bring them to see what will be after them?"

What I like about Ecclesiastes is the skepticism and ability to doubt, to question. The last verses go
directly against that.

Again for the many, many times The Bible is the standard and Word of God for all Christians.
I have the Word of God and the Holy Spirt, you have some skulls and bones to interpret.

Meh. You do you.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

On the other hand -- God gave humans the ability to do certain intellectual things that gorillas and monkeys and turtles cannot.

In your opinion, of course.

 

[YoursTrue]

serpent

Right. Very good.
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time." (BSB) Revelation 20.

 

[YoursTrue]

In your opinion, of course.

In my opinion based on my observation of mankind and -- the Bible. There was Tarzan, but I doubt he produced offspring of tree swingers. Not sure.

 

[YoursTrue]

Ditto, and Jesus' teaching that there are only Two Commandments that one must follow is blown off.

So let me see if I have this straight as far as you interpret/understand it -- are you saying Jesus implied it's ok to break the other commandments?

 

[YoursTrue]

serpent

Yeah, sometimes I say snake. But yes, as I posted, Revelation 20 does say the voice Eve heard was really that of the serpent -- who is?? the Devil and Satan. but thanks anyway. You're right. The one speaking to Eve was -- the Serpent.