By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[YoursTrue]

That is completely true. The reality is that since we have found those documents in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, we have found that it is 99%+ correct.

I was born in the United States. I learned English and when I was young that was the only language I knew. Later in school I took French. I tried learning other languages, including Hebrew (not Greek though) but I am not as good as some others who learn quickly. I was good in English, though. Had good teachers.
William Tyndale, of course, was put to death for translating the Bible into English. Battle for the Bible ~ Background | Secrets of the Dead | PBS.
Very interesting discussion, and they mention Wycliffe and I would like to learn more about him also.

 

[Kenny]

I was born in the United States. I learned English and when I was young that was the only language I knew. Later in school I took French. I tried learning other languages, including Hebrew (not Greek though) but I am not as good as some others who learn quickly. I was good in English, though. Had good teachers.
William Tyndale, of course, was put to death for translating the Bible into English. Battle for the Bible ~ Background | Secrets of the Dead | PBS.
Very interesting discussion, and they mention Wycliffe and I would like to learn more about him also.

Amazing and wonderful!

I learned Spanish and English from 3 years old. Took one year of French - perhaps I will try to learn French.

Amazing you learning Hebrew!

 

[blü 2]

The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit. How you translate that will vary person to person.

What objective test will inform the impartial onlooker whether any text is inspired by the Holy Spirit or not?

"If there is a claim in the NT that it's beneficial to read the scriptures, that statement is confined to the Tanakh, since there was no NT when that claim was written"

I’m not sure that holds. The Bible is a compilation of books that were written at different time periods spanning millenniums. Every book was written when other books weren’t written yet. To conclude that the New Testament is not inspired just because it happened after the TaNaKh is just a viewpoint.

One I share with people of the Jewish faith, however ─ and after all, the Tanakh is their book.

I would disagree on the basis on what is written. For an example, the Book of Revelation is quite inspired.

No offense, I hope, but the Book of Revelation is gibberish. Though, to be fair, it must have been fun to write.

Historically this statement has no foundation or substance. The belief that Jesus was the Messiah was started by Jewish people.

And the belief that Hitler was right was started by Christian people. So I'm not persuaded just yet that this is the test. In each case it depends on which people in that group, and why they so decided.

I would call this a fabrication if I go by the historical accounts written.

In my view no different approach is required for reading the books of the bible than reading the Iliad or The Book of the Dead or Gilgamesh or the steles and wall writings of the Egyptians or Caesar's Gallic Wars ─ what, where, when, who, why? ─ windows onto how our ancient ancestors saw the world. The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius are considerably more sophisticated, for example.

That is true… but one could also say your answers are inspired by AI.

Other way round at the moment, but in a few years' time, who can say? Auden's remark "How do I know what I think till I hear what I say?" may then be out of date ...

I disagree… Sin… by definition is “missing the mark”. Ask you spouse if you ever “missed the mark”.

You can have wrong without a god. For sin you need not only a god, but one who's offended.


But I suspect we can leave it there. Thanks for the conversation.

 

[blü 2]

I wouldn’t agree with that. First, they knew Satan had already disobeyed and saw the consequences.

Really? Where does Genesis say that?

Secondly, there is no concept of doing “wrong innocently”

We're talking about people in a story from whom knowledge of what is right and what is wrong has been deliberately withheld.

Consequently they have no way of knowing that eg disobedience is wrong.

Not only that, but in the story the Snake tells the truth ("You shall not die") and God lies ("In the day that you eat of it you shall die"). And God in the story DOES possess knowledge of right and wrong (and says so Genesis 3:22).

So the Snake and the humans are the moral winners of the story, and God is portrayed as defensive, concerned only with protecting his hindquarters, and no regard for fairness. Incidentally, I disagree with identifying the Snake with Satan. For one thing, the Snake speaks only the truth, as a result of which the knowledge of right and wrong is brought to humanity; and Satan is a courtier in God's heavenly HQ among the other gods, and God's tester of ideas rather than an embodiment of evil as the later version becomes. And God's morality in the story of Job is appalling ─ as I may have said earlier.

no more than one is “innocently going into a clothing store, grab 1/2 dozen shirts and taking it without paying and then say “i did it innocently”.

"Did not know the nature and quality of his act, or if he did, did not know it was wrong" ─ the so-called M'Naghten Rules as to when a defense of insanity is allowed in a criminal trial, originating in England and widely used in the US. It covers the same territory that we're discussing with A&E.

​

 

[YoursTrue]

Amazing and wonderful!

I learned Spanish and English from 3 years old. Took one year of French - perhaps I will try to learn French.

Amazing you learning Hebrew!

(not much Hebrew, just a little. I need to put aside some time -- ) Spanish AND English. How wonderful.

 

[YoursTrue]

Amazing and wonderful!

I learned Spanish and English from 3 years old. Took one year of French - perhaps I will try to learn French.

Amazing you learning Hebrew!

At least we can read the Bible now in our native tongues. Men made great sacrifices to translate...

 

[Polymath257]

ALL are souls ( both human and animal ) I find at Numbers 31:28 (KJV)

OK, but where are they in *reality* as opposed to in some book?

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Nonsense. Elements and chemicals were put together for the Urey Miller experiment. And fuzz seemed to come about with nothing else. It's like when I pour soda into a cup, there's fuzz involved.

You are correct in you first word and sentence. What you wrote here is nonsense and incomprehensible. It is illustrative of your current state of the knowledge of science that you keep claiming you accept. In light of this, I'm wondering how you can accept science on any sound basis and have that claim mean something.

You really don't know what happened and how it happened.

What happened when? You have to be specific dear. You are all over the place and, as always, difficult to follow.

Nope, sorry, life itself tells me that it simply could NOT have come about by evolution as explained by most scientists.

I don't know what life tells you or what that really means given the ambiguity and lack of evidence. I'm pretty sure what some people have told you. But science and everyone on this forum that has tried to explain things to you and correct your errors has told you dozens, perhaps hundreds of times, that evolution, the theory and phenomenon, is not a mechanism or explanation for the origin of life. That you keep repeating erroneous claim tells me how little you know, understand or care about these well-supported issues and that you don't seem to have any real interest in science at all. It makes me wonder about what else you may just be paying lip service to and not really understand either.

So go beyond evolution. How in fact do you think he is your savior?

I wonder why you even care. Are you going to join me in sharing that joy? Are you going to thank God for another Saved person? I haven't really seen you do that with anyone. Other than a few that may received that for tribal reasons that have nothing to do with salvation. Mostly, you have been rather sharp with anyone that isn't your sort of Christian.

From -- what? Or for what? But I don't think you want to talk about it.

I don't want to talk about it with people that have no real interest in my Christianity and are set to try to tear it down, because it isn't "their truth" or "their Christianity".

I am a Christian and a believer and there is nothing you can do about that. You can insult it, attack it, and me too, but nothing you say will change that, or has any authority over that. Get that straight.

You have a BEAUTIFUL, WONDERFUL day!

 

[Dan From Smithville]

When the apostles went before the Sanhedrin, the Sanhedrin didn't like their testimony or preaching, did they? No, they did not. Acts 5:
The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28“We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”
29Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Thank you for reminding me of this scripture.

You are welcome!

You often remind me of a lot of scripture too. And for equivalent reasons as well.

 

[metis]

I learned Spanish and English from 3 years old. Took one year of French - perhaps I will try to learn French.

Amazing you learning Hebrew!

I still working on English.

 

[Kenny]

At least we can read the Bible now in our native tongues. Men made great sacrifices to translate...

And praise God for the printing press! It brought the word of God to the masses for their personal studies.

 

[YoursTrue]

And praise God for the printing press! It brought the word of God to the masses for their personal studies.

Yes, and someone said and I believe it, that science books change their claims (data) often but the Bible texts do not. Plus, I'm sure you know about the Masoretes, who took great care with copying each letter perfectly.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are correct in you first word and sentence. What you wrote here is nonsense and incomprehensible. It is illustrative of your current state of the knowledge of science that you keep claiming you accept. In light of this, I'm wondering how you can accept science on any sound basis and have that claim mean something.

What happened when? You have to be specific dear. You are all over the place and, as always, difficult to follow.

I don't know what life tells you or what that really means given the ambiguity and lack of evidence. I'm pretty sure what some people have told you. But science and everyone on this forum that has tried to explain things to you and correct your errors has told you dozens, perhaps hundreds of times, that evolution, the theory and phenomenon, is not a mechanism or explanation for the origin of life. That you keep repeating erroneous claim tells me how little you know, understand or care about these well-supported issues and that you don't seem to have any real interest in science at all. It makes me wonder about what else you may just be paying lip service to and not really understand either.

I wonder why you even care. Are you going to join me in sharing that joy? Are you going to thank God for another Saved person? I haven't really seen you do that with anyone. Other than a few that may received that for tribal reasons that have nothing to do with salvation. Mostly, you have been rather sharp with anyone that isn't your sort of Christian.

I don't want to talk about it with people that have no real interest in my Christianity and are set to try to tear it down, because it isn't "their truth" or "their Christianity".

I am a Christian and a believer and there is nothing you can do about that. You can insult it, attack it, and me too, but nothing you say will change that, or has any authority over that. Get that straight.

You have a BEAUTIFUL, WONDERFUL day!

Days will get better when the prophecies of a "new earth" and "new heavens" are fulfilled. I believe it.
Revelation 21 among other scriptures describes a new earth and new heavens.
1-8

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,a for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them.
They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.
‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”
And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 6And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Days will get better when the prophecies of a "new earth" and "new heavens" are fulfilled. I believe it.
Revelation 21 among other scriptures describes a new earth and new heavens.
1-8

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,a for the first heaven and earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them.
They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.
‘He will wipe away every tear from their eyes,’ and there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain,
for the former things have passed away.”
And the One seated on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Then He said, “Write this down, for these words are faithful and true.” 6And He told me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death.”

So you agree with my post that you are responding to?

Thank you.

You have a decidedly delicious, dazzling, daring, dynamic day!

 

[Kenny]

Yes, and someone said and I believe it, that science books change their claims (data) often but the Bible texts do not. Plus, I'm sure you know about the Masoretes, who took great care with copying each letter perfectly.

YES! For them the texts were so holy that they wouldn’t continue if there was a mistake with many steps to make sure it was correct!

 

[YoursTrue]

So you agree with my post that you are responding to?
P
Thank you.

You have a decidedly delicious, dazzling, daring, dynamic day!

Yes you wished me a good day,etc. and I know and believe that will happen. You have a dandy Dan day.

 

[YoursTrue]

YES! For them the texts were so holy that they wouldn’t continue if there was a mistake with many steps to make sure it was correct!

Precisely. God made sure by means of His holy Spirit.

 

[YoursTrue]

You are correct in you first word and sentence. What you wrote here is nonsense and incomprehensible. It is illustrative of your current state of the knowledge of science that you keep claiming you accept. In light of this, I'm wondering how you can accept science on any sound basis and have that claim mean something.

What happened when? You have to be specific dear. You are all over the place and, as always, difficult to follow.

I don't know what life tells you or what that really means given the ambiguity and lack of evidence. I'm pretty sure what some people have told you. But science and everyone on this forum that has tried to explain things to you and correct your errors has told you dozens, perhaps hundreds of times, that evolution, the theory and phenomenon, is not a mechanism or explanation for the origin of life. That you keep repeating erroneous claim tells me how little you know, understand or care about these well-supported issues and that you don't seem to have any real interest in science at all. It makes me wonder about what else you may just be paying lip service to and not really understand either.

I wonder why you even care. Are you going to join me in sharing that joy? Are you going to thank God for another Saved person? I haven't really seen you do that with anyone. Other than a few that may received that for tribal reasons that have nothing to do with salvation. Mostly, you have been rather sharp with anyone that isn't your sort of Christian.

I don't want to talk about it with people that have no real interest in my Christianity and are set to try to tear it down, because it isn't "their truth" or "their Christianity".

I am a Christian and a believer and there is nothing you can do about that. You can insult it, attack it, and me too, but nothing you say will change that, or has any authority over that. Get that straight.

You have a BEAUTIFUL, WONDERFUL day!

A believer in what? Surely not the Bible, no matter that a person claims if they believe in evolution.

 

[Kenny]

Precisely. God made sure by means of His holy Spirit.

He does use people

 

[metis]

YES! For them the texts were so holy that they wouldn’t continue if there was a mistake with many steps to make sure it was correct!

If one mistake was made on a page, no matter how small, that page had to be destroyed. These pages were on skins which got sewn together.