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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Please post those scriptures that you believe support your beliefs regarding what happens to evil people when they die.
I will try to do that, I don't know what I will find, I don't know if the Bible uses the word evil or what words are used?

This will take some time, thank you for your patience. :sparklingheart:
 
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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Is eternal torment In harmony with the majority of the Bible?

KJV(i) 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. -Malachi 4:1

Berean Standard Bible
Yet a little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found. -Psalm 37:10

New King James Version
But the wicked shall perish; And the enemies of the LORD, Like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish. Into smoke they shall vanish away. -Psalm 37:20

New International Version
For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land. -Psalm 37:9

English Standard Version
For the evildoers shall be cut off, but those who wait for the LORD shall inherit the land. -Psalm 37:9

New American Standard Bible
For evildoers will be eliminated, But those who wait for the LORD, they will inherit the land. -Psalm 37:9

Contemporary English Version
All sinners will disappear, but if you trust the LORD, the land will be yours. -Psalm 37:9

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Evildoers will be cut off [from their inheritance], but those who wait with hope for the LORD will inherit the land. -Psalm 37:9

International Standard Version
Those who do evil will perish. But those who wait on the LORD will inherit the land. -Psalm 37:9

Berean Literal Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life. -John 3:16

Berean Literal Bible
The one believing in the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." -John 3:36

Douay-Rheims Bible
The Lord keepeth all them that love him; but all the wicked he will destroy. -Psalm 145:20

Berean Standard Bible
but the wicked will be cut off from the land, and the unfaithful will be uprooted. -Proverbs 2:22

Berean Standard Bible
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. -Matthew 7:13

“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. -John 5:28-29 NIV; Revelation 20:12, 2nd Thess 1:8
 
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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
Good News Translation
I have the same hope in God that these themselves have, namely, that all people, both the good and the bad, will rise from death. Acts 24:15

New Living Translation
I have the same hope in God that these men have, that he will raise both the righteous and the unrighteous. Acts 24:15
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Good News Translation
I have the same hope in God that these themselves have, namely, that all people, both the good and the bad, will rise from death. Acts 24:15

I think this covers a lot of people don't you? :sparklingheart:
Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

What do you think that means?
Do you think it means that the physical bodies of both good and bad people will literally come out of their physical graves in graveyards and come back to physical life?

Below is what I think resurrection means. What I believe is that when our body dies, our spirit (soul) is resurrected and passes from one world into another. After our spirit is resurrected it continues to live forever in a spiritual body, not in a physical body.
* Please note that on the context of the afterlife the words spirit and soul have the same meaning.

The Resuscitation of Man from the Dead and His Entrance into Eternal Life

421. When the body is no longer able to perform the bodily functions in the natural world that correspond to the spirit’s thoughts and affections, which the spirit has from the spiritual world, man is said to die. This takes place when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease. But the man does not die; he is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in the world, while the man himself continues to live. It is said that the man himself continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit, for it is the spirit that thinks in man, and thought with affection is what constitutes man. Evidently, then, the death of man is merely his passing from one world into another. And this is why in the Word in its internal sense “death” signifies resurrection and continuation of life. Heaven and Hell, p. 351

The physical body returns to the earth and the spirit returns to God, who resides in heaven.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

After the physical body dies, the spirit (soul) takes on a spiritual body. (We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!)

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
I offer my kindness to each and everyone. :heartribbon: I feel Jesus words have meaning, Why did Jesus say these words at Matthew 7:14 ?
1 Corinthians 9:24

24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.



If you consider from Worldly Terms, why do only a Few become Olympic Gold Medalist?


No Pain, No Gain: China's Gymnastics Training for 5 million children

Derek Redmond's inspirational 400m Race at Barcelona 1992 | Throwback Thursday
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Does anyone feel it should be necessary to use the Christian scriptures, to gain understanding about a Christian subject?
2 Timothy 3:16-17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



The Holy Scriptures/Bible is the Holy Book of the Christians that Defines what it means to be Christian. Without Deep In-Depth Study, Understanding and Totally Devoted Practice of the Holy Scriptures/Bible Christians do Not Exist. Through Adherence to the teachings of the Holy Scriptures/Bible Christian Identity is Constructed, Maintained and Advanced.
 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
What are the names of some of the church fathers that called Jesus an angel?


Apostle John died around 99 A.D.
Justin Martyr (110-165 A.D.)
Justin Martyr’s Dialogue w/ Trypho Ch. 126 “who He is that is called at one time the Angel of great counsel (Isaiah 9:6 LXX), and a Man by Ezekiel, and like the Son of man by Daniel, and a Child by Isaiah, and Christ and God to be worshipped by David, and Christ and a Stone by many, and Wisdom by Solomon, and Joseph and Judah and a Star by Moses, and the East by Zechariah, and the Suffering One and Jacob and Israel by Isaiah again, and a Rod, and Flower, and Corner-Stone, and Son of God, you would not have blasphemed Him who has now come, and been born, and suffered, and ascended to heaven; who shall also come again, and then your twelve tribes

Justin Martyr’s Dialogue w/ Trypho Ch. 34 “..although the words of the Psalm expressly proclaim that reference is made to the everlasting King, i.e., to Christ. For Christ is King, and Priest, and God, and Lord, and Angel, and man, and captain (Josh. 5:13-15), and stone, and a Son born, and first made subject to suffering, then returning to heaven, and again coming with glory, and He is preached as having the everlasting kingdom: so I prove from all the Scriptures.”

Irenaeus of Lyons 102-220 A.D.
Against Heresies Book III, Ch. 6: “And again, when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, I have come down to deliver this people.”

Fragments of Irenaeus Ch. 54: “He is the First-begotten, after a transcendent manner, the Creator of man; All in all; Patriarch among the patriarchs; Law in the law; the Priest among priests; among kings Prime Leader; the Prophet among the prophets; the Angel among angels; the Man among men; Son in the Father; God in God; King to all eternity… the Leader of the angelic host; God of God; Jesus Christ our Saviour.”

Clement of Alexandria (150-215 A.D.)
Clement of Alexandria’s “The Instructor” Ch. 5 “The Spirit calls the Lord Himself a child, thus prophesying by Esaias: “Lo, to us a child has been born, to us a son has been given, on whose own shoulder the government shall be; and His name has been called the Angel of great Counsel.” Who, then, is this infant child?”

Novation (200-258 A.D.)
Novation On the Trinity Ch. 18 “And since this cannot be applicable or fitting to the Father, who is God only, but may be applicable to Christ, who is declared to be not only God, but angel also, it manifestly appears that it was not the Father who thus spoke to Hagar, but rather Christ, since He is God; and to Him also is applied the name of angel, since He became the “angel of great counsel (Isaiah 9:6 LXX).

Eusebius (265-339 A.D.)
Eusebius’ The Proof of the Gospel Book 1 Ch. 1 IT seems now time to say what I consider to be desirable at present to draw from the prophetic writings for the proof of the Gospel. They said that Christ, (Whom they named) the Word of God, and Himself both God and Lord, and Angel of Great Counsel, would one day dwell among men, and would become for all the nations of the world, both Greek and Barbarian, a teacher of true knowledge of God, and of such duty to God the Maker of the Universe, as the preaching of the Gospel includes.

Eusebius’ “Preparation for the Gospel” Book 7 Ch. 15 “And this Beginning is before all originate things which followed, on which account also they are wont to call it the Image of God, and Power of God, and Wisdom of God, and Word of God, nay further the Great ‘Captain of the host of the Lord,’ and ‘Angel of the great Counsel.’”

Origen (184-253 A.D.)
Contra Celsum Book 5 Ch. 53 And this was the work of one who, as the prophecy regarding Him said, was not simply an angel, but the Angel of the great counsel: for He announced to men the great counsel of the God and Father of all things regarding them, (saying) of those who yield themselves up to a life of pure religion,

Contra Celsum Book 8 Ch. 27 “He who by his piety possesses the favour of the Most High, who has accepted the guidance of Jesus, the Angel of the great counsel, being well contented with the favour of God through Christ Jesus, may say with confidence that he has nothing to suffer from the whole host of demons.”

Athanasius of Alexandria (293-373 A.D.)
Against the Arians Discourse 3 Ch. 25 “yet none of created and natural Angels did he join to God their Creator, nor rejecting God that fed him, did he from Angel ask the blessing on his grandsons; but in saying, ‘Who delivered me from all evil (Gen. 48:15-16),’ he showed that it was no created Angel, but the Word of God, whom he joined to the Father in his prayer, through whom, whomsoever He will, God does deliver. For knowing that He is also called the Father’s ‘Angel of great Counsel”

Theodoret of Cyrus (393-457 A.D.)
The whole passage (Exodus 3) shows that it was God who appeared to Moses. But Moses called Him an “angel” in order to let us know that it was not God the Father whom he saw — for whose angel could the Father be? — but the Only-begotten Son, the Angel of Great Counsel.”
 
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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
"Church fathers" said and did many things, some of which were against Church teaching.
I agree with you they say all kinds of different things, but still some of their words are noteworthy.

Where do you think they got their information that Jesus was the Angel of Great Council? [ I have found some evidence ].
 
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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I don't quite understand why these paintings we're painted in the first place?

14th century painting



The Angel of Great Counsel in Iconography​

Many paintings, the words "the angel of great council" is from the LXX Septuagint - Isaiah 9:6

 
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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
This debate has been going on for around 2,000 years, is there any Bible text that identifies Jesus as an angel before this debate even started? YES!
 
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walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I hope for the day when their will be peace on earth, kindness and goodwill to everyone. :sparklingheart:
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I hope for the day when their will be peace on earth, kindness and goodwill to everyone. :sparklingheart:
I believe that day will come, but that's because I am a Baha'i.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.”

 

walt

Jesus is King & Mighty God Isa.9:6-7; Lk.1:32-33
I believe that day will come, but that's because I am a Baha'i.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.”

I am happy we both find comfort in each-others Holy Scriptures. :)
 

Lisa Sims

Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
But, we know “the dead know nothing.” When he dies, man’s “spirit goes out; he returns to the ground. In that day his thoughts / plans perish.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms
Dearest H__
The entire Bible is rife with information about the Spirit World, where lives every person who has ever lived on earth in one sphere or another who are completely able to channel messages or speak through mediums of one ilk or another--and you would stand on one obscure verse from Ecclesiastes?

Jesus' (and Friend's) Second Coming Message Series From Spirit, 1914 to today, contains statements from both Saul and Samuel given through one of his inspired/developed mediums concerning the "Woman of Endor" who channeled Samuel at Saul's request. They both say she was a gifted medium and not an evil woman.

"I am the same Saul that called up Samuel, or rather who caused the woman of Endor to do so...I want to confirm what Samuel said as to the woman of Endor. She was not a witch or evil woman, but was a medium and received communications from the higher spirits of the spirit world. She has been abused for centuries, and should not be further thought of as a wicked woman..." Saul, 8/7/1915

"I am the same Samuel whom the woman of Endor called from the spirit world to show Saul his doom; and as I come to you tonight, I came to her at that time, only my purpose is not the same, and I am not the same spirit in my qualifications... Well, the woman of Endor was not a witch and did not practice the black art. She was a good woman possessed of powers to call up the dead, as they were called. She did not engage in practices of doing harm to mortals, such as putting spells upon them or using charms, but she was a true medium and, while not possessed of much spirituality, yet she was a woman of good morals, and had around her many spirits of the higher order whose only desires were to do good to mortals. She was one who was careful to have no evil spirits come and communicate, and her powers with the higher ones were very great. Had she been of what you call the lower class of mediums, I would never have responded to her call; she was in rapport with men and other spirits whose thoughts were turned to the higher things of the spirit world, and, hence, she had no difficulty in having us appear when she desired it for the consolation of help to mortals. Samuel, 7/21/1915

"Thank God the people are more enlightened now, and will soon recognize the fact that a good medium is one of the greatest gifts of God to suffering humanity. The time will come when mediums will be looked upon as were the prophets of old by the Jewish people, but without having the ingratitude of the people visited upon them, as it was visited at times on these of old prophets." Saul, 8/13/15

And a message from one who liked to quote the verse you mentioned from Ecclesiastes:

"...Well, I realize the falsity of my teachings and the wrong and injury that are being wrought among those who have been followers of me; and how great will be their surprise when death comes to them, for what I said was impossible they will find to be true - that they are more alive than they ever were while living in the flesh..." Charles Taze Russell, 7/31/1918

Love and blessings...
Lisa
 
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Lisa Sims

Not BORN AGAIN Yet, But I'm On My WAY!
But also, when the Bible says something that wasn't true like in the case where it appears that Samuel's "spirit" is summoned by the witch of En-dor.
Dear I Am Hugh,

I must give you the same rebuke I just gave H__

Love and blessings...
Lisa
 
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