By Their Fruits You Shall Recognize Them

[beloved57]

No, I think I'm going to mind actually. I got that from numerous posts in which you have stated that God has already decided who He is going to save and who He is going to damn and there is absolutely nothing we can do to change His mind. You tell me how that could be interpreted in any other way than I have interpreted it.

Oh, thats right, those who God saves and those who He damns is a settled issue before you or I was ever born. If God did not choose, elect you to be saved, you are on your way to a christless eternity regardless of your behaviour.:yes:

 

[Katzpur]

Oh, thats right, those who God saves and those who He damns is a settled issue before you or I was ever born. If God did not choose, elect you to be saved, you are on your way to a christless eternity regardless of your behaviour.:yes:

And this is exactly why I stated that it sounds to me as if a person can behave anyway he wants and it won't matter. You laughed and said, "How did you get that from what I have said?" If my behavior is exemplary and I'm not among His chosen, I'll be damned anyway. If I live a wicked and depraved life but am among His chosen, I'll be saved anyway. I guess I was right in how I understood you after all.

 

[beloved57]

And this is exactly why I stated that it sounds to me as if a person can behave anyway he wants and it won't matter. You laughed and said, "How did you get that from what I have said?" If my behavior is exemplary and I'm not among His chosen, I'll be damned anyway.

Thats right. I know athiest and buddah priest and christian scienctist with exemplanary behaviour but they are not believers in christ. Heck the apostle paul prior to his conversion said he lived a exemplanary life

phil 3


4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

See you believe in salvation by good behaviour, you are not a believer !:no:

If I live a wicked and depraved life but am among His chosen, I'll be saved anyway.

That is true, a person is not saved by how they live. But by the grace Of God..:yes:

 

[Katzpur]

Thats right. I know athiest and buddah priest and christian scienctist with exemplanary behaviour but they are not believers in christ.

Oh, so now you have to believe in Christ. You just got through saying you couldn't do anything at all to make a difference and now you're telling me that you have to believe in Christ. Suppose this Buddhist priest is on God's list of people He's going to save. According to you, he was on that list before he was ever born. What's God going to do with him now, since he ended up being a Buddhist priest?

That is true, a person is not saved by how they live. But by the grace Of God..:yes:

Then how do you know that the three people you mentioned are not saved? You contradict yourself every time you open your mouth, you know that? Maybe this atheist, this Buddhist priest and this Christian Scientist will be saved by God's grace (despite the horrible way they evidently lived their lives). Ever stop to think of that?

See you believe in salvation by good behaviour, you are not a believer !:no:

​

Don't you dare tell me what I believe! EVER! ​

 

[UnTheist]

That is true, a person is not saved by how they live. But by the grace Of God..:yes:

Hmm. There are many, many problems with that statement, and your view of how a just God would want you to live your life is quite bizzare
Your argument states that I can kill 300 people, rape women, curse my parents a thousand times, burn babies, and if I pray to God to take my sins away, I have a better chance of salvation than an Atheist that based his whole life on good deeds and helping other humans, simply because he didn't believe in something he couldn't sense in any way.

 

[Katzpur]

Hmm. There are many, many problems with that statement, and your view of how a just God would want you to live your life is quite bizzare
Your argument states that I can kill 300 people, rape women, curse my parents a thousand times, burn babies, and if I pray to God to take my sins away, I have a better chance of salvation than an Atheist that based his whole life on good deeds and helping other humans, simply because he didn't believe in something he couldn't sense in any way.

And that's only the half of it! It's not a matter of one person having a better chance of salvation than someone else. It's a case of one person having a 100% chance of beging saved and another one having a 100% change of being damned. It's a cast-in-concrete decision that was made for both of these individuals before either of them even takes his first breath.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It is quite possible for some people preaching on TV, not to be in heaven and Charles Manson to become saved and see God. With God, all things are possible.

 

[beloved57]

Hmm. There are many, many problems with that statement, and your view of how a just God would want you to live your life is quite bizzare
Your argument states that I can kill 300 people, rape women, curse my parents a thousand times, burn babies, and if I pray to God to take my sins away, I have a better chance of salvation than an Atheist that based his whole life on good deeds and helping other humans, simply because he didn't believe in something he couldn't sense in any way.

Thats not what I said, I said that salvation is not based on human peformance or good behaviour , but on grace.

 

[beloved57]

It is quite possible for some people preaching on TV, not to be in heaven and Charles Manson to become saved and see God. With God, all things are possible.

Well if manson was a elect and the tv evangelist are not, well yeah you have judged correctly..

 

[beloved57]

And that's only the half of it! It's not a matter of one person having a better chance of salvation than someone else. It's a case of one person having a 100% chance of beging saved and another one having a 100% change of being damned. It's a cast-in-concrete decision that was made for both of these individuals before either of them even takes his first breath.

Thats right your eternal destiny was decided by God in eternity past and you cannot change it..:no:

 

[beloved57]

Oh, so now you have to believe in Christ. You just got through saying you couldn't do anything at all to make a difference and now you're telling me that you have to believe in Christ. Suppose this Buddhist priest is on God's list of people He's going to save. According to you, he was on that list before he was ever born. What's God going to do with him now, since he ended up being a Buddhist priest?

Then how do you know that the three people you mentioned are not saved? You contradict yourself every time you open your mouth, you know that? Maybe this atheist, this Buddhist priest and this Christian Scientist will be saved by God's grace (despite the horrible way they evidently lived their lives). Ever stop to think of that?

Don't you dare tell me what I believe! EVER! ​

You do believe in salvation by good behaviour and works, you are not a believer, in fact, why did christ even shed his precious blood, since you can live so holy and with good behaviour..? Thats your god your good behaviour..:yes:

 

[beloved57]

Oh, so now you have to believe in Christ. You just got through saying you couldn't do anything at all to make a difference and now you're telling me that you have to believe in Christ

No you got it wrong, you do not have to believe in christ as a condition to get saved, a saved person believes in christ ! Thats the reason why they believe, because they are saved, duh..

 

[James the Persian]

Thats right your eternal destiny was decided by God in eternity past and you cannot change it..:no:

So why not take your hateful proselytism elsewhere? What do you think you will achieve. Apparently if we were 'elect' we'd already agree with you and as we don't we're not (doesn't that just make you feel smug and superior?). Given that belief, what's the point of preaching to us?

Calvinism is about as Christian as Valentinianism. Scripture tells us that God wills that all men will be saved and yet you tell us that He only chose to save a few. Scripture tells us to work out our salvation, yet you say that nothing we can do can change the decision to save or damn us God made in the past. Scripture tells us to go out and preach the Gospel and yet you tell us that to do this is utterly pointless, as God has already determined who will or will not be saved. Not only does your faith turn God from the God who is love into a petty and tyrannical demon, but it denies His gift of free will to man in the process, makes a mockery of the Fall and denies the efficacy of the Incarnation. A less Christian faith I find hard to imagine.

Just as Valentinus wrapped pre-Christian pagan belief in Christian imagery to produce his Gnostic sect, Calvin wrapped non-Christian theology with a more than an insignificant debt to the dualist Mani in Christian imagery, producing TULIP (which you apparently are unable to defend as being the message of the early Church). Neither Valentinianism nor your faith, for all the Christian language, bears any resemblance at all to the faith handed down to the Apostles and you should remember that we are told that we will be judged with the measure by which we judge others. Personally, I think I'm more likely to see Kat in heaven, assuming I'm worthy of such, than you, judging by that criterion, even though I disagree with her faith as you have shown a willingness to condemn others to hell which she certainly never has. All I can do is pray that you receive God's mercy.

James

 

[*Paul*]

The gospel is Tulip? It follows then that anyone who disagrees with tulip isn't a Christian, even a bible believeing fundie like me. Scary.

 

[wizanda]

At first I looked at that scripture and thought well for once Paul may have said things right, yet when it comes down to it, allot of what Paul said is nice to look at, yet doesn’t provide much use or substance in being a light to many, as Christ instructed.
Since i see Paul as so anti-Christ now it is hard to see light, when all he has brought is darkness.

Lets take Rome for instance, most sexual promiscuity it is said and sexual problems. In fact we look at any Christian family and we find the children doing more to become corrupted, in a chance to rebel.

Many people will come on here and I have met whom are now atheist, due to Christianity and Sunday school influence.
So where is the love? Love is just…not Philadelphia as Paul established being Christian love, which only stems as far as your friends and colleagues as the Pharisee, or any sect do.

Yet since wisdom is sought first, to translate some of the figurative as in the woman or test is also wisdom and so in understanding the things of God first; then all is easy to you.
As since God means searching all out, before anything else, you are not self contained in boredom with dull coloured eyes, as Paul prescribes and had.
Yet that of the light where your eyes glisten with life and colour, where the very substance, that your quantum’s are made from is that of faith of God and not self sustained with ego, which in Paul’s version of loving your self and Christ will fail (built on sand).
As you see from any Christian if challenged on faith, they fall to pieces and attack others.

So my idea of fruit is those who drop fruit as a tree does and don’t count it.
That the light is truly bright in them, as what is the point of being so dull and boring and then saying how Christ gave you live or showed you how to find that God is the life? Sort of embarrasses Christ and we wonder why the churches are emptying.

Also by sweeping stuff under the carpet as that scripture says, most let it fester, so is that really a light or darkness?

 

[cardero]

Sorry for the delay... I have been out in the wilderness for the last five days.

The fruit is what is important as you pointed out. If you pick a grape, there is no need to examine the plant any further for identification purposes. However, you might want to examine and prune it, in order to improve the fruit:

John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. NIV

I think that what I am trying to understand is if the religion is the tree and the fruit it's members, if one or many of the fruits do a disservice in the name of God or bring reproach upon their religion is this a fair assumption that the tree and the fruit that they bear is unedible for human consumptiom or unacceptable in the eyes of God? If this is so, can any of the trees bearing fruits today be an exemplary example for this kind of recognition? Could the scripture have had individual intention or meaning; for example, that we are own trees and are good works the fruit from these trees?

 

[beloved57]

paul says:

The gospel is Tulip? It follows then that anyone who disagrees with tulip isn't a Christian, even a bible believeing fundie like me. Scary.

That is correct, how can you be a believer and not believe the gospel which is tulip ? BTW, you are not bible believing either if you reject the bible teaching of the gospel which tulip exemplifies ! All the truthes tulip teach are in the bible :yes:


jtp says:

So why not take your hateful proselytism elsewhere? What do you think you will achieve.

I am just uncompromisingly witnessing to the truth of the kingdom, the achievement or results are in Gods Hands, but know this !

isa 55: 11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Given that belief, what's the point of preaching to us?

2 cor 2


14Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.
15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Scripture tells us to go out and preach the Gospel and yet you tell us that to do this is utterly pointless, as God has already determined who will or will not be saved

Duh, how is it pointless, preaching the gospel reveals their salvation to them, the elect, thats their good news....

That was pauls passion in his preaching !

2 tim 2 10Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Not only does your faith turn God from the God who is love into a petty and tyrannical demon, but it denies His gift of free will to man in the process, makes a mockery of the Fall and denies the efficacy of the Incarnation. A less Christian faith I find hard to imagine.

There you go, keep expressing your dislike for the God of scripture who only loves His elect !

Just as Valentinus wrapped pre-Christian pagan belief in Christian imagery to produce his Gnostic sect, Calvin wrapped non-Christian theology with a more than an insignificant debt to the dualist Mani in Christian imagery, producing TULIP (which you apparently are unable to defend as being the message of the early Church). Neither Valentinianism nor your faith, for all the Christian language, bears any resemblance at all to the faith handed down to the Apostles and you should remember that we are told that we will be judged with the measure by which we judge others. Personally, I think I'm more likely to see Kat in heaven, assuming I'm worthy of such, than you, judging by that criterion, even though I disagree with her faith as you have shown a willingness to condemn others to hell which she certainly never has. All I can do is pray that you receive God's mercy.

Ah hush up, Tulip is taught in scripture wether you believe it or not, thats for sure...:yes:

 

[porkchop]

what on earth is " tulip"? have i stumbled into a gardening thread?

 

[Sunstone]

**MOD POST**

Rude, insulting, and inflammatory posts are violations of RF Rule #4 and are not allowed. Anyone who has not read the rules is strongly advised to read them. If you cannot abide by the rules of this Forum, get out of this thread now.
​

 

[Halcyon]

Calvinism is about as Christian as Valentinianism.

:sad4:

Just as Valentinus wrapped pre-Christian pagan belief in Christian imagery to produce his Gnostic sect...

Well, Jewish anyway...

Neither Valentinianism nor your faith, for all the Christian language, bears any resemblance at all to the faith handed down to the Apostles...

Depends who you ask... meh, i won't derail the thread anymore.