Calling Linguists (Again)

[Rival]

Shalom, fellow language lovers

In the Germanic languages (or others too?) there is a tendency to use a preposition with a verb, where the preposition isn't necessarily needed (there is a word for this that I forget)

For instance:

Wake up
Sit down
Live at

etc.

What is the reason for this use of prepositions?

'Go in and wake him' makes as much sense as 'Go in and wake him up'
"Why don't you sit?" as much as "Why don't you sit down?"

Thanks!

 

[Tumah]

Sure they're necessary!

Its like, you can say 'turn right at the stop light' or you can say 'turn at the stop light'. Technically, they're both correct, but when you add (right) to the directions they become clearer.

Its the same thing. You can say, "its time to wake up and get out of bed" or you can say "its time to wake and get out of bed". Technically they're both correct, but in the first case you tell the subject in which direction to wake (ie. up), which makes the directive clearer. In the second case, the subject won't know which direction to wake to.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

"Wake me before you go-go," wouldn't have been nearly as big of a hit for Wham!

 

[RabbiO]

Phrasal verbs.

 

[Rival]

Sure they're necessary!

Its like, you can say 'turn right at the stop light' or you can say 'turn at the stop light'. Technically, they're both correct, but when you add (right) to the directions they become clearer.

Its the same thing. You can say, "its time to wake up and get out of bed" or you can say "its time to wake and get out of bed". Technically they're both correct, but in the first case you tell the subject in which direction to wake (ie. up), which makes the directive clearer. In the second case, the subject won't know which direction to wake to.

Will you wake sideways if I say you have only 126 more frubals than me?

Make more posts for me to like!!!

 

[Iti oj]

Shalom, fellow language lovers

In the Germanic languages (or others too?) there is a tendency to use a preposition with a verb, where the preposition isn't necessarily needed (there is a word for this that I forget)

For instance:

Wake up
Sit down
Live at

etc.

What is the reason for this use of prepositions?

'Go in and wake him' makes as much sense as 'Go in and wake him up'
"Why don't you sit?" as much as "Why don't you sit down?"

Thanks!

Isn't there a difference between sitting up and sitting down . You can lay down or around .

 

[LuisDantas]

Some verbs actually change meaning from their prepositions. E.g., to sign in and to sign up are two very different things (or so many websites tell me).

 

[SomeRandom]

To wake up carries connotations of actually getting out of bed and starting the day. To wake simply means to exit sleep. Both are correct, but the "up" adds a little more emphasis to the verb I guess.
To sit is something you tell a dog. So it may be more of a thing of manners. To ask someone to sit down adds propriety to the request.

 

[Aupmanyav]

In the Germanic languages (or others too?) there is a tendency to use a preposition with a verb, where the preposition isn't necessarily needed (there is a word for this that I forget)

I am not a linguist but Sanskrit does it regularly. 'Ramah Videhavan Dharmah' (Rama is personified dharma). 'Ramah Dehavan Dharma' would also have sufficed, but to stress on the point, for better 'flow' of the words, more lyrical.

 

[Rival]

Some verbs actually change meaning from their prepositions. E.g., to sign in and to sign up are two very different things (or so many websites tell me).

They do but I'm talking specifically about the redundant ones.

 

[Augustus]

Wake up
Sit down
Live at

They aren't all the same. The first 2 are phrasal verbs, but the 3rd is just a verb/preposition collocation.

Some verbs actually change meaning from their prepositions. to sign in and to sign up are two very different things

They are phrasal verbs so are really treated as a single word. The meaning is not changed by the preposition, the term simply doesn't exist without both parts.

Neither part necessarily carries its standard individual meaning so meaning comes only from the whole phrase.

To say the meaning comes from the preposition is a bit like changing 'set' to 'sit' and saying the meaning comes from the letter i.

(I might be wrong about this, but think it is all correct)

What is the reason for this use of prepositions?

Not sure you can say much more than it's just convention.

Although it's often quite logical (sit down, etc.)

 

[Rival]

To wake up carries connotations of actually getting out of bed and starting the day. To wake simply means to exit sleep. Both are correct, but the "up" adds a little more emphasis to the verb I guess.
To sit is something you tell a dog. So it may be more of a thing of manners. To ask someone to sit down adds propriety to the request.

I'm rather a fan of being economic with language and making it as direct as possible, so telling someone"Sit," or "Come," really works for me.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

stand up....stand still....stand by.... stand in...stand to...stand alone... and stand for. Are all combinations that have entirely different meanings. and do not all contain the usual meaning of stand.

I suspect the redundancy in sit down, has come about by change in usage. At one time the difference between sit, and sit down, might have been obvious.

 

[Rival]

stand up....stand still....stand by.... stand in...stand to...stand alone... and stand for. Are all combinations that have entirely different meanings. and do not all contain the usual meaning of stand.

I suspect the redundancy in sit down, has come about by change in usage. At one time the difference between sit, and sit down, might have been obvious.

This isn't what I'm referencing tho...

Say you want someone to stand. Why not just say "Stand," and for sit "Sit"? Say someone is sitting on a chair and you want the person to stand, you would or could say "Please stand." There's no need for 'up' here. Or asking a person who is standing to sit, no need for 'down'.

 

[Estro Felino]

Shalom, fellow language lovers

In the Germanic languages (or others too?) there is a tendency to use a preposition with a verb, where the preposition isn't necessarily needed (there is a word for this that I forget)

For instance:

Wake up
Sit down
Live at

etc.

What is the reason for this use of prepositions?

'Go in and wake him' makes as much sense as 'Go in and wake him up'
"Why don't you sit?" as much as "Why don't you sit down?"

Thanks!

Lol...That's why I like speaking a Romance language, we don't have phrasal verbs...they're so confusing.
This happens in German too, where many many verbs are "Trennbare Verben", that is, they have a prefix in the infinitive form that goes after the verb when this is conjugated.
Aufwachen. Wach auf! Wake up
Zuhoeren: Hoer zu! Listen
Ausgehen: Geh aus! Go out

In Latin the meaning of a verb would change when a prefix was added. So... unlike Germanic languages, in Latin lots of verbs which look like normal verbsa are actually compound verbs,

For example the verb to prefer comes from Latin praefero which is made up of the basic verb fero which means to take, and the prefix prae which means before. So its meaning was something like: consider something before (other things) .
Or the verb extract comes from Latin extraho, and it was made up of : ex (from, out) and traho (to draw), so to pull out.

I tend to use the English verbs coming from Latin, maybe unwillingly, but surely because I am sure about their meaning.

 

[Rival]

Lol...That's why I like speaking a Romance language, we don't have phrasal verbs...they're so confusing.

I'm delving into Old French at the minute. I love it so much. Latin is my favourite branch too; I don't like Germanic branches, haha. (though I'm forced to speak one!)

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm rather a fan of being economic with language and making it as direct as possible, so telling someone"Sit," or "Come," really works for me.

In English, that's considered "being short." Which comes across as being rude or impatient. It's also a sign of condescension. In English such "economic usage" is reserved for speaking to toddlers or pets, perhaps because people think they're simple. Direct English, I find, makes it lose its flavour. It's messy and drunk and that's sort of the point sometimes.

 

[Rival]

In English, that's considered "being short." Which comes across as being rude or impatient. Direct English, I find, makes it lose its flavour.

I'm really not a fan of English anyway lol

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

This isn't what I'm referencing tho...

Say you want someone to stand. Why not just say "Stand," and for sit "Sit"? Say someone is sitting on a chair and you want the person to stand, you would or could say "Please stand." There's no need for 'up' here. Or asking a person who is standing to sit, no need for 'down'.

Stand Down.... is in very common usage especially in the forces. as is stand easy, and stand at ease...or stand to attention. All have very specific meanings. and responses.
As I said previously I do not thinks the redundancies have always been redundant , but we have lost the distinctions in meaning. I suspect that the word to sit did not mean as sit, as in a chair. ... People certainly sat but there were few chairs. and those were reserved for the nobs. If you ask a child to sit up, that is quite different to saying sit down as he would already be sitting.

Perhaps to sit down meant to sit down on a bench with the underlings, and sit Up meant sit up on a chair with the lords. by now it is lost in the mists of time... but once how and where you sat was very important... it is even mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Lol...That's why I like speaking a Romance language, we don't have phrasal verbs...they're so confusing.
This happens in German too, where many many verbs are "Trennbare Verben", that is, they have a prefix in the infinitive form that goes after the verb when this is conjugated.
Aufwachen. Wach auf! Wake up
Zuhoeren: Hoer zu! Listen
Ausgehen: Geh aus! Go out

In Latin the meaning of a verb would change when a prefix was added. So... unlike Germanic languages, in Latin lots of verbs are compound verbs,

For example the verb to prefer comes from Latin praefero which is made up of the basic verb fero which means to take, and the prefix prae which means before. So its meaning was something like: consider something before (other things) .
Or the verb extract comes from Latin extraho, and it was made up of : ex (from, out) and traho (to draw), so to pull out.

I tend to use the English verbs coming from Latin, maybe unwillingly, but surely because I am sure about their meaning.

Ausgehen: Geh aus! Go out

English also has, in common usage... Out you go...and... Go out.
they are reserved for rather different usages.

You might say, when wafting a wasp out the window, "out you go". Or even to a naughty child.
But rarely if ever to an equal.