Calvanism leaves me feeling ill

[Kolibri]

That is the disgusting thing about Calvinism - the idea that some people do not have a choice in regards to salvation - and that simply is not true! Will there be a mass repentance on the part of mankind preventing God from having to step in and cleanse this earth again? No. But every single one of us has the ability to draw on power beyond what is normal and to apply practical wisdom in order to protect ourselves. And in the case of serious sin we are told that it is the practice of these things that rob us of our potential inheritance, it isn't the fact that we stumbled but that we refuse to get back up and continue working on the issues.

These thoughts can be found in the following verses:

"However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, (or "in jars of clay.") so that the power beyond what is normal may be God's and not from us." - 2 Corinthians 4:7
"But I say to you that everyone who keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." - Matthew 5:28
"Turn my eyes away from looking at what is worthless; Preserve me alive in your way." - Psalm 119:37 (This can be considered both a commitment and a suitable topic of prayer.)
"For the righteous one may fall seven times, and he will get up again. But the wicked will be made to stumble by calamity." - Proverbs 24:16

Do we all have struggles as imperfect humans? Serious struggles? Yes. But none of us are individually without hope. We have to realize that "discouragement" is a tool of Satan. He makes sure that all integrity keepers will have to put up with a "hard fight for the faith.". (Exodus 6:9; Jude 3) And yet we are promised, "the one who has endured (or "who endures.") to the end will be saved." - Matthew 24:13

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Thank you for the clarification. Can I ask, in a Calvinistic view, God chooses who will be saved, our asking for salvation would be null because we wouldn't know if we are saved even though we asked. We can only assume that we are the elect; however, who is it for a Christian to say for sure they are.

Only those whom the Father gives will come to Jesus. From Scripture Christians who believe and trust in Jesus as Lord can be confident they are among the elect and be secure in their salvation.

In the Calvinist view a person who wasn't elect wouldn't even "ask" for salvation in the first place, not truly. Seek and ye shall find, Jesus said. Those who are not saved will not seek God to begin with but prefer their own ways.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Those who are not saved will not seek God to begin with but prefer their own ways.

Wouldn't it be, those who are not saved and do not want to seek God will not seek Him rather than saying those who will not save will have no interest in God (even though some do and that is why they are Christian)?

 

[Kolibri]

Only those whom the Father gives will come to Jesus. From Scripture Christians who believe and trust in Jesus as Lord can be confident they are among the elect and be secure in their salvation.

In the Calvinist view a person who wasn't elect wouldn't even "ask" for salvation in the first place, not truly. Seek and ye shall find, Jesus said. Those who are not saved will not seek God to begin with but prefer their own ways.

Perhaps the issue of who gets drawn by God and who does not is encapsulated by what is said at Proverbs 1:7

"The fear of (or "reverence for.") Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge. Only fools despise wisdom and discipline."

The irreverent will not even begin to know because it is an attitude problem they have with discipline and/or wisdom.
But to those willing to be corrected "he gives undeserved kindness." - 1 Peter 5:5d

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Im not sure how my idea of Calvanism is all that off if off at all. Yes, I know sinners choose to sin. But the desire to sin is not their choice. For instance, if there is a beautiful female that wants to fornicate with me and I even more passionately want to do the same, the desire to do that is out of my control. And I know myself all to well that if she is consenting, the fear of going to hell is not going to be victorious over my eagerness to satiate such a strong and natural human desire, and I'll fall into the sin. Whether or not I do it is in my control however, but the desire to do it is just natural and has nothing to do with choice.

I know this very much because for a six year period of my life I wanted to be a chaste ascetic and have purged all concupiscent desires so as to be pure and desire God alone. No matter how much prayer, effort, or fasting I did, there was no possible way I could make the strong desire to commit sins of the flesh go away.

Also, something like sexual perversion or homosexuality is not a choice either. You could not choose to be a homosexual anymore than you can choose to be a heterosexual. The choice is whether or not you want to act out on what you are naturally disposed to.

The problem is, we look at homosexuals, or sex addicts, perverts, gambling addicts, sociopaths, alcoholics, or drug addicts as if it is a choice! No! It is not a choice! An alcoholic can choose whether or not they take that first drink, but they don't get to choose whether or not they are an alcoholic.

I would know because I am one lol. And with all my heart I desired to be free of that and ALL addictions and prayed and fasted incessantly for years that I would be.

The desires themselves are not choices? I'd agree, though would add we often cultivate bad desires by the situations we place ourselves in.

Nevertheless, if a desire was not your choice, as you have said it is still your choice whether to act on it or not.

Simply because the desire was not your choice, does it excuse you? Our choice to act on our desires is still our choice, and we are accountable for it. Why wouldn't we be?

Also, you didn't make calvanism any more repulsive to me.

I was trying to make it less repulsive but oh well, haha.

Either way, some people are created with no possibility of salvation. Isn't that correct?

If so...that could have been you! That could be your son, your daughter, your father, your mother, your friend, or your spouse. A person who has no chance of salvation! To me that is disgusting and my heart breaks for those poor people that they ever had to be born in the first place!

No one deserves salvation. You speak as if everyone has a right to salvation, but we don't. As I stated earlier, we all deserve Hell for our actions and rebellion, that God would save anyone is a marvel, amazing grace!

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Wouldn't it be, those who are not saved and do not want to seek God will not seek Him rather than saying those who will not save will have no interest in God (even though some do and that is why they are Christian)?

No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Those who you refer to who do seek after God were drawn by the Father in the first place.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No one comes to Jesus unless the Father draws him. Those who you refer to who do seek after God were drawn by the Father in the first place.

I see. The non-Calvinistic view is that we choose to come to Christ while the Calvinistic views that the Father draws us, we have no choice?

If that be the case, my concern is that in the Calvinist view, there is no relationship with Christ. When one has a relationship with Christ (just as a relationship with a person) both parties make a choice and attempt to get to know each other. They want to know each other.

To use this with the Christian and Father: Of course, the Father knows the to-be Christian. However, to make it a relationship, that Christian must choose on his on accord to follow Christ. It is great that the Father pulls a Christian to Christ. On the other hand, I find it equally great that a Christian would want to come to Christ not because Christ pulls him but because he wants to. That make's it a relationship.

For example, if I called my friend to be with me and she accepts, she accepts because she wants to be with me not just because I am calling her. Since she wants to be with me, she makes the act (not me, I just made the nudge), and I am happy that she has said yes because she wanted to not because I wanted her to.

In a relationship, both parties must want to be with each other. What keeps it a relationship is that each party knows "the other party has chosen" to be with him not because "he has chosen the party" to be with him. The ball is put on the other person (its about the other person) not about oneself.

 

[Spiderman]

Okay fine...no one "deserves" salvation...but do all women deserve to suffer severe pains and risk of death from childbirth because Eve listened to some talking snake that told her the fruit would enlighten her?

Do all of the descendants of ham deserve to be cursed and slaves because ham wanted others to see his fathers drunken nakedness?

Do people deserve hell?...an eternal punnishment for what they did thousands of years prior? If a person has an impulse to do something perverse or wicked or not believe a certain doctrine, does that person deserve to be tortured and miserable and suffer for ever and ever and ever?

If that is the definition of justice...Justice is horrifying, depressing, and disgusting!

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Moreover, if God has predetermined who will be saved, why is the Bible full of choices to obey God in the Garden (Genesis 3:12 f.), to obey Moses in the Wilderness (Exodus 32:26), to serve God under Joshua (24:15),

As I said before, Calvinists do not believe there is no choice, and it is not contradictory to predestination. Adam is indeed a special case, as he had no fallen nature. God permitted his choice but it all worked according to His divine plan. Regarding Genesis 3:12 specifically it doesn't actually say anything about a choice, though seeing as Adam was held responsible for his actions he probably did.

Concerning Exodus 32:26, Moses asks "who is on the Lord's side?" All the Levites then came forward. From a Calvinist perspective that fits perfectly with God's guiding hand, it was not a mere coincidence it was the Levites who came forward. From the Arminian perspective, all sorts of Israelites should have come forward based on their free will, seems like it would have been a random bunch, not an entire tribe. Verse 29 then builds on this by saying they have now been ordained for the Lord's service.

Joshua 24:15 doesn't actually speak about choosing God but choosing between two false gods if you read the context, and indeed people choose between all sorts of sin.

Look, Calvinists don't believe choice doesn't exist. The main point is that with regards to salvation, we always choose to rebel against God and follow our own sinful desires, and so God in His grace chooses to save some and draw them to Himself.

all the way to John the Baptist’s call to repent, and Jesus’ further call to believe the Gospel, and Paul’s declaration, “whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10), and Jesus’ command to “preach the Gospel to every creature”?

and the command to care for the sick, feed the hungry...

Yep, all of that is true. Indeed anyone who does believe will be saved. John 6:44 tells us that people only will come if the Father draws them though, remember.

And yes, we should preach the Gospel to everyone. We do not know who the elect are, it is our Christian duty to spread the good news to all.

And yep, we should care for the sick and feed the hungry too, don't see how that'd contradict Calvinist doctrine.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Okay fine...no one "deserves" salvation...but do all women deserve to suffer severe pains and risk of death from childbirth because Eve listened to some talking snake that told her the fruit would enlighten her?

Do all of the descendants of ham deserve to be cursed and slaves because ham wanted others to see his fathers drunken nakedness?

Do people deserve hell?...an eternal punnishment for what they did thousands of years prior? If a person has an impulse to do something perverse or wicked or not believe a certain doctrine, does that person deserve to be tortured and miserable and suffer for ever and ever and ever?

If that is the definition of justice...Justice is horrifying, depressing, and disgusting!

People are not being sent to Hell for the actions of those thousands of years ago. There is a choice to act on impulses or not. We choose to rebel against God. Before God we will feel the weight of our sin before His perfect holiness.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I see. The non-Calvinistic view is that we choose to come to Christ while the Calvinistic views that the Father draws us, we have no choice?

If that be the case, my concern is that in the Calvinist view, there is no relationship with Christ. When one has a relationship with Christ (just as a relationship with a person) both parties make a choice and attempt to get to know each other. They want to know each other.

To use this with the Christian and Father: Of course, the Father knows the to-be Christian. However, to make it a relationship, that Christian must choose on his on accord to follow Christ. It is great that the Father pulls a Christian to Christ. On the other hand, I find it equally great that a Christian would want to come to Christ not because Christ pulls him but because he wants to. That make's it a relationship.

For example, if I called my friend to be with me and she accepts, she accepts because she wants to be with me not just because I am calling her. Since she wants to be with me, she makes the act (not me, I just made the nudge), and I am happy that she has said yes because she wanted to not because I wanted her to.

In a relationship, both parties must want to be with each other. What keeps it a relationship is that each party knows "the other party has chosen" to be with him not because "he has chosen the party" to be with him. The ball is put on the other person (its about the other person) not about oneself.

When God saves us we are saved from slavery to sin and are given true freedom in Christ. Those who are slaves to sin will naturally choose to rebel against God, though He in His grace will save His people. They are "born again" and naturally choose to serve God. Choice is not removed, we will choose according to our nature.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Look, Calvinists don't believe choice doesn't exist. The main point is that with regards to salvation, we always choose to rebel against God and follow our own sinful desires, and so God in His grace chooses to save some and draw them to Himself.

That's right .. nobody deserves 'being saved' by merit alone .. we are ALL dependent on Almighty God's Mercy..

..another thing .. when it's said 'God chooses to save some' , it doesn't necessarily follow that we lose our free-will to choose .. "Almighty God is closer to us than our jugular vein"

ie. Our souls have connection with Almighty God, and our deeds and their intentions affect that connection

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Those who are slaves to sin will naturally choose to rebel against God, though He in His grace will save His people.

How can He save people who, by their sinful nature, have no choice but to rebel against Him?

They are "born again" and naturally choose to serve God. Choice is not removed, we will choose according to our nature.[/QUOTE]

For them to chose God (and for God to pull them) they'll have to believe that their sinful nature does not prevent them from knowing God (hence their nature doesn't make them rebel against God); since that isn't possible (right?) they cannot be saved.

Not all people with a sinful nature rebel against God. If God is indeed pulling them to Him, they will know; there is no rebellion if God is continuing to pull people towards Him. It's the sinners position (not a denial or bad choice) to realize this and make that choice once he/she knows they are called. Many are not rebelling, they just don't know.

 

[Spiderman]

People are not being sent to Hell for the actions of those thousands of years ago. There is a choice to act on impulses or not. We choose to rebel against God. Before God we will feel the weight of our sin before His perfect holiness.

What im saying is that someone who died outside of God's grace and went to Hell a thousand years ago is still suffering for something they did a thousand years ago and a hundred thousand years from now they will have been suffering for something they did a hundred thousand years ago. I can't see that as anything but the epitome of injustice and cruelty!

Words do not express or describe how depressing and horrifying such a reality is!

 

[Desert Snake]

I'm pretty sure you don't understand 'Calvinism'.

 

[Desert Snake]

So this whole idea that God made some people vessels of wrath predestined for hell just makes me sick! How is that fair to the people that through no choice of their own were simply created destined for eternal misery and separation from God.

So, if you are a Calvinist, im not saying you make me ill , but rather the idea that people are created destined for hell and those very people could be your son or daughter or spouse or friend, is an idea that just makes me feel sick when I think of it as possibly the truth.

It just isn't fair to them who didn't decide to be that way that they should have to suffer eternal punishment for just being who they are and who they were created to be. I feel there are many beautiful depictions of God, but fail to see the beauty in Calvinism. Maybe you can help me out?

.......^

I think that's why he asked the question and is venting because he wants to understand the thought of Calvinism--that God has chosen who will go to hell and who will not (even though we do not know who will)

That's an interesting way of asking a question, don't you think? Nowhere does it say, "I'm probably wrong about this, but........?"

 

[Spiderman]

what part are you saying I do not understand?

I'm pretty sure you don't understand 'Calvinism'.

 

[Desert Snake]

what part are you saying I do not understand?

The part where some are pre-destined to Hell. Show me where Calvin states that, or is part of official church dogma, I'm betting it isn't there, and I haven't even checked.

 

[Spiderman]

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."

Predestination (Calvinism) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He didn't say predestined for hell in those words but I can't see how it means otherwise. They were not created for heaven were they?

 

[Kolibri]

What im saying is that someone who died outside of God's grace and went to Hell a thousand years ago is still suffering for something they did a thousand years ago and a hundred thousand years from now they will have been suffering for something they did a hundred thousand years ago. I can't see that as anything but the epitome of injustice and cruelty!

Words do not express or describe how depressing and horrifying such a reality is!

that is because it is not reality. it is the logical result of a teaching that has no basis on scripture.

Adam was not told he would suffer in hell. He was told he would return to the state he was before he created - dust. There was no pre-human existence for Adam. So there is no post-human existence either. Life after death is only possible because God has the power to restore life, and chooses to exercise it in the resurrection. Meanwhile the person that has died is non-existent. From our perspective, sleeping till someone loud enough wakes him/her from his/her dreamless slumber.