Calvanism leaves me feeling ill

[jhwatts]

A few thoughts on this issue.

If Christ died to save all humanity, all humanity would be saved. He cannot fail at anything he does, hence this cannot be the case.

If God decides to save a person and that person can reject God, then God can only attempt to save that person. Why bother praying the prayer God please save so and so. You should pray the prayer God please attempt to save so and so.

If a person can reject God then this would make God a failure at his effort to save a person. God cannot fail at anything.

If a person can make a choice concerning his salvation, then his salvation is partially dependent on that persons action and his action is a work in some fashion. This makes a persons salvation dependent on that persons works. Salvation is dependent on works but they are the works of Christ, not a persons.

There is no doubt that predestination is taught in the bible. The question at hand is did God predestine a person because he simply chose to or because he seen or simply knew what choice that person would make. Something to consider God does not learn. He is a all knowing who has always known and alway will know all things.That eliminates the possibility of him foreseeing what you will do and making the choice.

Something to consider. The bible says at more than on location that the names of those saved have been written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation of the world. God is not adding any new names to it. Those decisions concerning who will be saved were made before this world was ever in existence.

 

[Kolibri]

The bible says at more than on location that the names of those saved have been written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation of the world. God is not adding any new names to it. Those decisions concerning who will be saved were made before this world was ever in existence.

When it comes to salvation, the Bible does indeed talk about groups of people that will saved and groups of people that will not.
But nowhere does it list individuals that were predestined to die condemned/saved.

We can review any specific scriptures you have in mind if you like.

 

[jhwatts]

Here is a starting point. Please explain your position concerning this verse.

Rev 17:8 (KJV)The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

 

[Kolibri]

very interesting scripture. Setting aside the identity of this beast, we are focusing on "those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world". Or at least that does seem to the topical part of the verse.

First what is the "founding of the world"?

Luke 11:50,51 links the "founding of the world" to the time of Abel, so this would be from the time Adam and Eve started producing children that were redeemable. Even Cain was redeemable till he murdered his brother as he was warned by God to get the mastery over his anger. (Ge 4:6,7) Die-hard opponents of God's will never get there names written in the book of life. That is still their own choice and doing. These ones that be be amazed at this wild beast's restoration are people that are not at all looking to God's Kingdom as the solution. They are putting their hopes and dreams into political entity instead. (Re 17:11)

It is also possible to have one's name erased from the book of life. (Re 3:5) So the names written in there are not automatically written in indelible ink.

 

[jhwatts]

very interesting scripture. Setting aside the identity of this beast, we are focusing on "those whose names have not been written in the scroll of life from the founding of the world". Or at least that does seem to the topical part of the verse.

First what is the "founding of the world"?

Luke 11:50,51 links the "founding of the world" to the time of Abel, so this would be from the time Adam and Eve started producing children that were redeemable. Even Cain was redeemable till he murdered his brother as he was warned by God to get the mastery over his anger. (Ge 4:6,7) Die-hard opponents of God's will never get there names written in the book of life. That is still their own choice and doing. These ones that be be amazed at this wild beast's restoration are people that are not at all looking to God's Kingdom as the solution. They are putting their hopes and dreams into political entity instead. (Re 17:11)

It is also possible to have one's name erased from the book of life. (Re 3:5) So the names written in there are not automatically written in indelible ink.

Its seems very implied trying to assume that this scripture some how links the “foundation of the world” with the beginning of humanity. The foundation clearly is its beginning of this world in a physical sense. See this scripture.

Job 38 4-7 (KJV) Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. * 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Cain and Abel is a wonderful picture of Gods sovereignty and Gods Grace. It is also a picture of salvation. Both Cain and Abel brought God what they had done. God simply chose to show one favor and other not. Its was nothing that either one had done, only what God had decided.

Ge 4: 3-5 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. * 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: * 5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect.

It is also possible to have one's name erased from the book of life. (Re 3:5) So the names written in there are not automatically written in indelible ink. (This verse cannot be be viewed as all inclusive of all but is directed at the church of Sardis. I do believe it is possible however names can be removed. Moses himself asked God to blot his name out. I cannot find any scripture that would imply that it can be assumed to be true for every person )

Re 3:4-5 (KJV) 4 "Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy." 5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

 

[JM2C]

Moreover, if God has predetermined who will be saved, why is the Bible full of choices to obey God in the Garden (Genesis 3:12 f.), to obey Moses in the Wilderness (Exodus 32:26), to serve God under Joshua (24:15), all the way to John the Baptist’s call to repent, and Jesus’ further call to believe the Gospel, and Paul’s declaration, “whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10), and Jesus’ command to “preach the Gospel to every creature”?

and the command to care for the sick, feed the hungry...

Didn't you just summarized predestination? IOW, it’s happening right in front of you or staring at you.

 

[Spiderman]

Calvinism is a total LIE but mainly because of that ONE point you mention. God does make specific groups of people that are "vessels of wrath" for a specific and set time, but the true "vessel" of wrath is the part of ALL of us that is under law (God's wrath) which is our outer, natural man. He is under LAW and is spiritually DEAD because of it.

See Romans 8:10. Our body is dead because of sin. No reviving it. See Romans 4:15. The law always brings God's WRATH. We have been under his wrath since he put us under law in Genesis 2:17. That's right as soon as he gave the command, we were under law and his wrath. That started death! Not when "Adam" sinned as we are taught. Adam didn't "plunge" man into death. God did when he put man under law by giving the command "do not eat from that tree". Man can not fulfill the law. Only God can. Man dies 100% of the time under law.

We are truly made up of TWO people. One spiritual inside and one natural on the outside. 2 Cor 4:16 The natural one is under law (death) since the Lord God gave the command to "not eat of the tree". This outer man will die for all people. It/he/she is the TRUE vessel of wrath that will die 100% of the time.

My strong conviction is that Calvinism has most things correct except that some are predestined for "hell". "Hell" is not what man has taught us it is. It's not "forever punishment" but rather "an age of refining and purifying" until we "die enough" to repent and finally believe the truth and accept his free gift of eternal life. Some of us are in HELL right now in God's Holy fire via the trials and tribulations of THIS LIFE. Mark 9:49 says "ALL will be SALTED (purified) with fire". No one will get away from the fire of God. It is how his true being and FULL LIFE appears to us in the natural.

God's fire is NOT LIKE NATURAL FIRE. It doesn't destroy the person, but really reveals who they really are (which Christians call the "second birth"). It makes things pure and removes the "dross" and causes them to be "reborn" spiritually from within from God's seed who is his son. Here is the Strong's definition of the word "fire" as in "Lake of fire". It's the word "pur" where we get English "pure" and "purify" from.

pur: fire
Original Word: πῦρ, πυρός, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: pur
Phonetic Spelling: (poor)
Short Definition: fire, trials
Definition: fire; the heat of the sun, lightning; fig: strife, trials; the eternal fire.
HELPS Word-studies
4442 pýr – fire. In Scripture, fire is often used figuratively – like with the "fire of God" which transforms all it touches into light and likeness with itself

God's Spirit, like a holy fire, enlightens and purifies so that believers (for all not just "believers") can share more and more in His likeness. Indeed the fire of God brings the uninterrupted privilege of being transformed which happens by experiencing faith from Him. Our lives can become true offerings to Him as we obey this imparted faith from God by His power.

[This is illustrated by God's fire burning continuously at the entrance of the Tabernacle where the priests made sweet-savor offerings. Compare Lev 6:12,13 with 1 Pet 2:5,9.]

We need not fear God's "fire". It's holy and GOOD. More like strong, loving discipline that causes us to repent and accept his free gift of faith so we will live. See Hebrews 12:7-11. This is what God's Holy fire does. God bless.

Yes if the fire is trials and a crucible of purification then what a beautiful and holy fire that is! A fire that doesn't destroy but purifies.

And good point that Adam and Eve were under the law of wrath the moment they were commanded to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Our Hell for many of us is the fire of trials here and now on earth that attacks our perishing and mortal flesh.

 

[jhwatts]

Calvinism explains a lot in terms of Gods plan and how things are concerning humanity. I'm thinking a lack of understanding of is probably the reason of feeling ill about it. I'm committed to defending it. You might try the mp3 below. This C.H. Spurgeon message really helped to see it differently.

SermonAudio.com - Email

 

[Kolibri]

Calvinism explains a lot in terms of Gods plan and how things are concerning humanity. I'm thinking a lack of understanding of is probably the reason of feeling ill about it. I'm committed to defending it.

I honestly never gave Calvinism much thought before joining RF. I mean, I knew it existed and I read a couple articles about it, but it never stood out to me because the body of teaching that it encompasses did not impact my daily awareness. And I was kinda taken aback by the vehemence shown Paul over the misconception that he taught salvation per-destination in regards to individuals among other things.

Does Jehovah have the ability to foresee and the future and manipulate events. Yes. Does he use it to pre-determine salvation for individuals. I think not.

The rest of Calvinism, I am still unaware of, (if there is more) as I have not gone back yet to review.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Then you don't understand Calvinism. You cannot like it no more than you can grow wings and fly, because you have not been predestined to the grace required to accept the Gospel.

But conveniently, you have.

 

[Glaurung]

But conveniently, you have.

Have you actually read my posts? I explicitly reject Calvinism here and in other places.

Calvanism leaves me feeling ill | Page 3 | ReligiousForums.com

 

[Sand Dancer]

Have you actually read my posts? I explicitly reject Calvinism here and in other places.

Calvanism leaves me feeling ill | Page 3 | ReligiousForums.com

I'm not here enough to know the sarcastic posters. Forgive.

 

[we-live-now]

A few thoughts on this issue.

If Christ died to save all humanity, all humanity would be saved. He cannot fail at anything he does, hence this cannot be the case.

If God decides to save a person and that person can reject God, then God can only attempt to save that person. Why bother praying the prayer God please save so and so. You should pray the prayer God please attempt to save so and so.

If a person can reject God then this would make God a failure at his effort to save a person. God cannot fail at anything.

If a person can make a choice concerning his salvation, then his salvation is partially dependent on that persons action and his action is a work in some fashion. This makes a persons salvation dependent on that persons works. Salvation is dependent on works but they are the works of Christ, not a persons.

There is no doubt that predestination is taught in the bible. The question at hand is did God predestine a person because he simply chose to or because he seen or simply knew what choice that person would make. Something to consider God does not learn. He is a all knowing who has always known and alway will know all things.That eliminates the possibility of him foreseeing what you will do and making the choice.

Something to consider. The bible says at more than on location that the names of those saved have been written in the Lambs book of life before the foundation of the world. God is not adding any new names to it. Those decisions concerning who will be saved were made before this world was ever in existence.

Man, you are right on!

I love your thoughts. You are hearing from the Spirit.

My heart confirms 100% what you are saying and says a whole-hearted... "AMEN"!

The TRUE God can NOT be rejected. The false god can.

Everyone's name is written in the book of life... at least when it is "time" 1 Tim 1:6. When their "time" comes, God WILL speak inside their hearts and HIS WORD ARE LIFE.

Amen.

 

[we-live-now]

Yes if the fire is trials and a crucible of purification then what a beautiful and holy fire that is! A fire that doesn't destroy but purifies.

And good point that Adam and Eve were under the law of wrath the moment they were commanded to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Our Hell for many of us is the fire of trials here and now on earth that attacks our perishing and mortal flesh.

Nice! I am astounded by your faith. It takes a LOT OF faith to agree with those "crazy" words that went through my "hands".

I can't take any credit for any of that. It's just what I hear and I hear so much each day. All very good, but sometimes we need to first "take down the old (strongholds) before we can see the NEW". 2 Cor 10:3-6. I do share more at my blog: www.kickedoutofchurch.com.

Yes, I was asked to leave my mainstream, "non-denominational" church for seeing God in a new and awesome way. A way that included all people eventually.

 

[RedDragon94]

To play devil's advocate, There is scripture that I think aptly defends the calvinist mindset.

Romans 9:17-21

"For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?"

Did God make Pharaoh disbelieve in him without giving him a choice?

 

[Thana]

Did God make Pharaoh disbelieve in him without giving him a choice?

That seems to be what that passage implies

 

[Kolibri]

Did God make Pharaoh disbelieve in him without giving him a choice?

No. Often the Bible will use the idea "to cause" to mean "to permit"

Romans 9:17 is a quote from Ex 9:16. And Romans 9:18 references Ex 10:1 and Ex 14:4.

However, some translations render the Hebrew account to read that Jehovah “let [Pharaoh’s] heart wax bold” (Ro); In support of such rendering, the appendix to Rotherham’s translation shows that in Hebrew the occasion or permission of an event is often presented as if it were the cause of the event, and that “even positive commands are occasionally to be accepted as meaning no more than permission.” Thus at Exodus 1:17 the original Hebrew text literally says that the midwives “caused the male children to live,” whereas in reality they permitted them to live by refraining from putting them to death. After quoting Hebrew scholars M. M. Kalisch, H. F. W. Gesenius, and B. Davies in support, Rotherham states that the Hebrew sense of the texts involving Pharaoh is that “God permitted Pharaoh to harden his own heart—spared him—gave him the opportunity, the occasion, of working out the wickedness that was in him. That is all.”—The Emphasised Bible, appendix, p. 919; compare Isa 10:5-7.

Corroborating this understanding is the fact that the record definitely shows that Pharaoh himself “hardened his heart.” (Ex 8:15, 32, KJ) He thus exercised his own will and followed his own stubborn inclination, the results of which inclination Jehovah accurately foresaw and predicted. The repeated opportunities given him by Jehovah obliged Pharaoh to make decisions, and in doing so he became hardened in his attitude. (Compare Ec 8:11, 12.) As the apostle Paul shows by quoting Exodus 9:16, Jehovah allowed the matter to develop in this way to the full length of ten plagues in order to make manifest his own power and cause his name to be made known earth wide.

"For the scripture says to Phar'aoh: 'For this very reason I have let you remain: to show my power in connection with you and to have my name declared in all the earth.' So, then, he has mercy on whomever he wishes, but he lets whomever he wishes become obstinate." - Romans 9:17,18 NWT (2013 Edition)

 

[RedDragon94]

Then you don't understand Calvinism. You cannot like it no more than you can grow wings and fly, because you have not been predestined to the grace required to accept the Gospel.

Do you know who God has elected? Are you God? Don't tell me that every Calvinist out there has it perfect. The Bible says that we should "work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." And the overall attitude of Calvinism, I feel at times, doesn't fear God in this way. Calvinism does not exclusively equal the gospel.

 

[RedDragon94]

That seems to be what that passage implies

Did God love Pharaoh at all?

 

[Thana]

Did God love Pharaoh at all?

I believe He loves us all, so yes I suppose.

But that's just my belief, don't take my word for it.