Can a Genesis God be Explained from a Science Perspective? (part 1)

[Subhankar Zac]

If taken literally, it's impossible.

 

[McBell]

cause and effect ARE a necessity.

Until you bring god into the picture....
Then you throw cause and effect out the window like week old garbage.

where's YOUR logic?

Perhaps pulled out from the same hat as yours?

 

[Thief]

Until you bring god into the picture....
Then you throw cause and effect out the window like week old garbage.


Perhaps pulled out from the same hat as yours?

the hall of mirror trick stops .....with God as the primary Cause

 

[Alan McDougall]

Here is my attempt pathetic as it might be?


The God of my Geneses

Existence -was -Existence-is -Existence-will be.

Within the writhing cosmic cloud of magnetic flux energy, that the always was, it took on new form, evolved and coalesced again into a dense oneness of primordial glowing energy, which is and was and will be, the primordial source that moves between the everlasting cycle of order to chaos and chaos back to order.

It became thought.

Within a Timeless zone before existence came to be , a pool of infinite pure thought it held within it all the hopes, dreams, for creating new order within the realms of existence and reality and these immense waves of pure magnetic thought gradually coalesced and a mighty sentient consciousness emerged out of previous chaos.

It knew itself and called itself contemplated and said to itself I am who I say I am.

Back before anything was conceived , I am Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark I created and said "let there be" light' and there was light. From the light came love and life.

I experienced time only in my dreams and the cup of my dreams ran over as do rivers that overflow their banks. I dreamed infinity of dreams in the first instant, and infinity multiplied by infinity out from the timeless zone of now. I thought and created the programs and processes of all possibilities in one awesome moment.

I awoke and thought the first creative thoughts within my infinitely primordial mind and out of the realm of previous chaos I began to recreate outside the absolute timeless realm and started the first realities based on new planes realms dimensions and textures and set the linear clocks of time to run forever.

Now I became aware of infinite potential within vast unplowed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of Radiant Light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence, before the timeless moment of creation.

I walked down the road of forever and sat down on the throne of infinity. I am the light being and my everlasting purpose is to create and cause existence, I am both nothing and everything I am the light that dispels the dark.

I evolved into spirit and in agony twisted boiled dissolved reformed writhed and shook before existence or creation were and began to organize itself into a mighty being of thought and infinite intelligence.

I grew out of nothingness by my own will, before anything was and with the mobility of its original thoughts and will created all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be.

As spirit I drifted ever in and out of awareness and within the fluxes of thought out of my mind of pure energy. I tossed out the foams of singularities started the flow of time and withdrew into myself outside time or space and sustaining creation as a static force of infinite power.

At the moment of the thundering dawn of creation, I sent out the primordial heat and energy to light up the universes for the seeds of life to be planted within them. I waited and watched my creation grow and expanded and this filled my being with joy and satisfaction and I knew my workmanship had been good.

After my creative event at the dawn of existence I withdrew of myself to allow for the void to come into existence and great incandescence's blazed outwards as I set entropy and time into motion.

Polarities separated and the sons of light and the sons of dark flew apart and set up the tension enmity between good and evil forever. A deep and infinite chasm came between my perfect and the depravity of the terrible one, who served only himself and love and hate were came to be.

I separated existence and withdrew myself into everlasting light and let it, the evil one exist in its darkness.

The opposing forces split the chasm light blazed to banish the dark and the dark flowed like evil tar to blot out the light forever.

I experienced time only in my dreams said God. God first dreamed. The cup of dreams ran over like unto rivers that overflow their banks. For God dreamed Infinity of dreams in an instant, and the Infinity multiplied by infinity for an Eternity created all possibilities in one awesome now. It was the Realm of Chaos. I began to create outside the Absolute Realm and started the first realities based on dimensions and textures.

There was no cause to my existence I simply, existed forever in the glory of my light. Having no Cause I am therefore both the effect and affect and shaper of everything.

On the panorama of bleak blackness," I am" "The Absolute", sowing seeds of universal radiant energy. Reality is the gem of my creation and the beauty of my achievement. I am he who lives, forever and forever, I illuminated the darkness with beams of dazzling light, radiant and translucent glory to share it with those who love me.

My acts of creation were the first event of my purpose reason for my existence. I formulate everything in the thoughts of my Mind and knew the first numbers and called them "Zero" and "One",
With the simplicities and realities of the fundamental, "I made everything".

I took these first fundamentals and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam where before there was but nothing. I am the Almighty One. If you are wise, do just one thingrespect me for I am The Lord of creation and reason you exist?

I am the great Infinite Ocean that contains all things.

I sang the songs of creation and the new universe began to vibrate with countless frequencies of light, glory translucent and everlasting with the vibrations of the song of existence. The singer sang the song, the painter the painting, the creator the creation.

The universe then began to weave, dance, and vibrate flux and vortex into one colossal maelstrom, spiral in perfect order from the mind of the eternal one The Universe danced and sang with joy. The dancer danced and sang along with his new creation.

I am life giver. Back before anything was conceived , I am Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark and said "let there be" light' and there was light.

I am life which the Lord created in the beginning of his works, before all else, when he set the heavens in their place, I was there, before he made the earth, I was his darling child and played the creation game, in eternal joy with him. I was his craftsman and his companion and delight. Wisdom and word is my name and I was with him before all creation. He is the ancient of days and I am his life and wisdom.

We together created mighty super-strings and weaved them together with colossal strands of energetic light colored in beautiful magnificent opalescence into the very fabric of reality and a new unimaginably beautiful universe was born in glory and delight.

What am I, I am who I say I am!

"My comments I tried to imagine how god came to be and avoid infinite regression"

Regards

Alan

 

[Milton Platt]

Here is my attempt pathetic as it might be?


The God of my Geneses

Existence -was -Existence-is -Existence-will be.

Within the writhing cosmic cloud of magnetic flux energy, that the always was, it took on new form, evolved and coalesced again into a dense oneness of primordial glowing energy, which is and was and will be, the primordial source that moves between the everlasting cycle of order to chaos and chaos back to order.

It became thought.

Within a Timeless zone before existence came to be , a pool of infinite pure thought it held within it all the hopes, dreams, for creating new order within the realms of existence and reality and these immense waves of pure magnetic thought gradually coalesced and a mighty sentient consciousness emerged out of previous chaos.

It knew itself and called itself contemplated and said to itself I am who I say I am.

Back before anything was conceived , I am Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark I created and said "let there be" light' and there was light. From the light came love and life.

I experienced time only in my dreams and the cup of my dreams ran over as do rivers that overflow their banks. I dreamed infinity of dreams in the first instant, and infinity multiplied by infinity out from the timeless zone of now. I thought and created the programs and processes of all possibilities in one awesome moment.

I awoke and thought the first creative thoughts within my infinitely primordial mind and out of the realm of previous chaos I began to recreate outside the absolute timeless realm and started the first realities based on new planes realms dimensions and textures and set the linear clocks of time to run forever.

Now I became aware of infinite potential within vast unplowed fields of nothing, I strode with great beams of Radiant Light toward the infinite horizon of eternity, sowing seeds of existence, before the timeless moment of creation.

I walked down the road of forever and sat down on the throne of infinity. I am the light being and my everlasting purpose is to create and cause existence, I am both nothing and everything I am the light that dispels the dark.

I evolved into spirit and in agony twisted boiled dissolved reformed writhed and shook before existence or creation were and began to organize itself into a mighty being of thought and infinite intelligence.

I grew out of nothingness by my own will, before anything was and with the mobility of its original thoughts and will created all that ever was, all that is, and all that will ever be.

As spirit I drifted ever in and out of awareness and within the fluxes of thought out of my mind of pure energy. I tossed out the foams of singularities started the flow of time and withdrew into myself outside time or space and sustaining creation as a static force of infinite power.

At the moment of the thundering dawn of creation, I sent out the primordial heat and energy to light up the universes for the seeds of life to be planted within them. I waited and watched my creation grow and expanded and this filled my being with joy and satisfaction and I knew my workmanship had been good.

After my creative event at the dawn of existence I withdrew of myself to allow for the void to come into existence and great incandescence's blazed outwards as I set entropy and time into motion.

Polarities separated and the sons of light and the sons of dark flew apart and set up the tension enmity between good and evil forever. A deep and infinite chasm came between my perfect and the depravity of the terrible one, who served only himself and love and hate were came to be.

I separated existence and withdrew myself into everlasting light and let it, the evil one exist in its darkness.

The opposing forces split the chasm light blazed to banish the dark and the dark flowed like evil tar to blot out the light forever.

I experienced time only in my dreams said God. God first dreamed. The cup of dreams ran over like unto rivers that overflow their banks. For God dreamed Infinity of dreams in an instant, and the Infinity multiplied by infinity for an Eternity created all possibilities in one awesome now. It was the Realm of Chaos. I began to create outside the Absolute Realm and started the first realities based on dimensions and textures.

There was no cause to my existence I simply, existed forever in the glory of my light. Having no Cause I am therefore both the effect and affect and shaper of everything.

On the panorama of bleak blackness," I am" "The Absolute", sowing seeds of universal radiant energy. Reality is the gem of my creation and the beauty of my achievement. I am he who lives, forever and forever, I illuminated the darkness with beams of dazzling light, radiant and translucent glory to share it with those who love me.

My acts of creation were the first event of my purpose reason for my existence. I formulate everything in the thoughts of my Mind and knew the first numbers and called them "Zero" and "One",
With the simplicities and realities of the fundamental, "I made everything".

I took these first fundamentals and weaved them into the fabric of the reality, creating all the limitless universes on the infinite timeless foam where before there was but nothing. I am the Almighty One. If you are wise, do just one thingrespect me for I am The Lord of creation and reason you exist?

I am the great Infinite Ocean that contains all things.

I sang the songs of creation and the new universe began to vibrate with countless frequencies of light, glory translucent and everlasting with the vibrations of the song of existence. The singer sang the song, the painter the painting, the creator the creation.

The universe then began to weave, dance, and vibrate flux and vortex into one colossal maelstrom, spiral in perfect order from the mind of the eternal one The Universe danced and sang with joy. The dancer danced and sang along with his new creation.

I am life giver. Back before anything was conceived , I am Infinite pure "mind" and "thought" there is no dark only light within my infinite domain, so I moved upon the great void of dark and said "let there be" light' and there was light.

I am life which the Lord created in the beginning of his works, before all else, when he set the heavens in their place, I was there, before he made the earth, I was his darling child and played the creation game, in eternal joy with him. I was his craftsman and his companion and delight. Wisdom and word is my name and I was with him before all creation. He is the ancient of days and I am his life and wisdom.

We together created mighty super-strings and weaved them together with colossal strands of energetic light colored in beautiful magnificent opalescence into the very fabric of reality and a new unimaginably beautiful universe was born in glory and delight.

What am I, I am who I say I am!

"My comments I tried to imagine how god came to be and avoid infinite regression"

Regards

Alan

All that is missing is the science.......

 

[Native]

1-."In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

What in science do we know controls all things and holds the Universe together that could be called God?

(I haven´t read all the discussion pages yet, so excuse me if . . . )

Can a Genesis God be Explained from a Science Perspective?

"Gravity" is scientifically thought to "hold everything together, but then again, something is stronger since the Universe seemingly is expanding, so "gravity is not god/God" and we have to look otherwhere for your assumed deity. (Who/which you seem to take for granted in your initial question!?)

"God" can be interpreted in many ways (or not at all) in the monotheistic religions, but otherwise "he" had/have a female counterpart/wife in most of the other cultural tellings of creation, so IMO we cannot speak of "a god" but of "a pair of deities of creation".

Besides this, the biblical story of creation is misunderstood with its "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", meaning the Sky and the Earth. Most of the (best) cultural Stories of Creation describe a primordial stage of "rivers of water and dust" which creates "firm matter" and this term is misinterpreted as "the Earth", but it really means "clay or firm matter" from which all stars and planets are created in the ancient known part of the Universe. This misinterpretation is a known biblical interpretative problem, called "the two time created Earth".

OK. If I should give my short answer to your question "What in science do we know controls all things and holds the Universe together that could be called God?", it would be: Electromagnetism.

 

[gnostic]

Can a Genesis God be Explained from a Science Perspective?

No, it can't be explained, because science cannot explain someone (e.g. God, Creator, etc) or something (e.g. Genesis Creation myth, the Eden episode, Noah's Flood, etc), when it is more than probable that the God creating his creation didn't happen the way Genesis had narrated.

1. The 6-day creation,
2. creating stuffs with mere words (e.g. "Let there be light"),
3. creating a fully-grown man from dust and a fully-grown woman from man's rib,
4. the existence of fruit that gives everlasting life or that gives knowledge,
5. talking serpent,
6. man living for 900+ years.

Science seek to UNDERSTAND and EXPLAIN how NATURE works. All of these in my list above, that come from Genesis 1 to 5, are not natural; they are all supernatural, as in they are primitive superstitions, written by author(s) and scribes, who have no understanding of how nature works.

Science don't do "supernatural", because they are not testable.

If Genesis is not testable, then it is unfalsifiable. And if Genesis is unfalsifiable, then it is unscientific.

How do you test a god?

The only way to find out what is true or false about Genesis god, is to summon God and tell him to create something from nothing for all the people to see. This would be only the way to test god's supposed magic or divine creative power.

Can you pull God out of the hat, Dante?

You can only look at the Genesis God from theological and mythological perspectives, not any science perspective.

Yes that was my assertion that Laws fit the definition of God and it is logical that God also fits the definition of the Laws.

You talk of natural law, but nothing presented in Genesis, about God himself, or his creation, have anything to do with natural. Everything about it defy the law of nature.

That's because God fall under the supernatural category. Under supernatural, anything and everything is possible, and that's not science...or law.

You might as well as have a mad tea-party with the Hatter, Cheshire Cat and March Hare. That is just as likely to happen as God creating the world in 6 days or the talking serpent.

 

[Native]

You can only look at the Genesis God from theological and mythological perspectives, not any science perspective.

"Genesis" speaks of the creation as such and thus logically of the very same subject as the modern scientific formation of the Universe.

Unfortunately, we have inherited a monotheistic religion wich speaks of just "one god" of creation and a telling which is personalized by historic interpretors - and unfortunately many western people have forgotten the mythical and symbolic language which is used in order to explain the ancient perception of the creation.

You talk of natural law, but nothing presented in Genesis, about God himself, or his creation, have anything to do with natural. Everything about it defy the law of nature.

Science seek to UNDERSTAND and EXPLAIN how NATURE works. All of these in my list above, that come from Genesis 1 to 5, are not natural; they are all supernatural, as in they are primitive superstitions, written by author(s) and scribes, who have no understanding of how nature works.

These sentenses are a typical case of someone who have forgotten the ancient mytho-cosmological language and because so, judge it to be "superstitious and supernatural". You can find descriptions of the laws of nature in many other cultural religious descriptions of creation. It´s just that the biblical one is distorted and simplified.

Besides this, modern cosmology have numerous metaphysical ideas. And if their mathematical calculations and assumed laws doesn´t fit the cosmological observations, they just invent some metaphysical "dark this or that" in order to repair on the observed contradictions and falsified "laws". And every contradiction is evidences of lacks of natural understanding of the creative/formational forces and motions.

Personally, I get more logics out of the many cultural ancient Stories of Creation than from modern science. It´s just a question of interpreting "deities" as "formative forces" and of connecting the mythical telling to concrete celestial objects and motions.

 

[Etritonakin]

If Genesis is read carefully -with an open mind -considering what is allowed by definitions of the words translated -it is not against what is known by science -though the existence of God has not been confirmed by science.

Genesis does not actually say the Earth is only 6,000 years old -and the rest of the bible also does not support that idea.
As the God of the bible is described as "a God who hides himself", finding proof of his activities and involvement would be quite difficult without him revealing himself.
If God set evolution in motion and made changes along the way, we might not even know what sort of evidence would be left -just as our changes to DNA might be assumed to be natural to future generations if no records were left and those changes were buried in all other available data.

I was thinking recently about what "science" would do if God somehow revealed himself (personally -though he did reveal himself by having human history written beforehand). That which could be known about God would be as real as anything else -though perhaps on a different level -and being able to ask God about his past would be interesting, to say the least.

I also wondered if we could be called a self before we were self-aware.
We are usually named before we have any clue what is going on -and long before we are able to say "I" and understand it at all.

If God IS/WAS the beginning -as he is quoted as saying -I wonder if God (all that can affect and all that can be affected) also developed to a point of being able to say "I".
I do not know if that is the case. If it is not, how a complex self-awareness/intelligence might exist without developing is beyond me.

 

[Native]

Hello Etritonakin,
Thanks for your interesting reply

I wrote earlier:

Personally, I get more logics out of the many cultural ancient Stories of Creation than from modern science. It´s just a question of interpreting "deities" as "formative forces" and of connecting the mythical telling to concrete celestial objects and motions.

Abstract:
Most modern people have no other perception of the ancient Myths of Creation than it is pure “mumbo jumbo hearsaying”, but in fact, the best and most detailed cultural mythical descriptions represents and describes concrete cosmological knowledge of the creation, which can compute with modern cosmology and even supersede this regarding the overall and genuine cosmological understanding.

The ancient known part of the Universe included specifically the Milky Way galaxy and its creation. That is: When ancient myths speaks of “beginning” this telling only deals with the pre-condition of and the factual creation of the Milky Way and NOT of the entire Universe, which was considered to be eternal and unlimited.

In the following, I will use Egyptian myths in order to underline and explain the specific connection to the Milky Way by referring to the Egyptian Goddess Hathor and connect this telling with the Egyptian story of creation, the Ogdoad.

Remember: In order to understand the myths in a modern scientific language, all “mythical deities” shall be interpreted to “forces and elementary conditions of creation”.

The Egyptian Goddess Hathor - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor#Relationships.2C_associations.2C_images.2C_and_symbols

Hathor, along with the goddess Nut, was associated with the Milky Way during the third millennium B.C. when, during the fall and spring equinoxes, it aligned over and touched the earth where the sun rose and fell. The four legs of the celestial cow represented Nut or Hathor could, in one account, be seen as the pillars on which the sky was supported with the stars on their bellies constituting the Milky Way on which the solar barque of Ra, representing the sun, sailed.

(Here the Milky Way is specifically mentioned and connected to “Ra” which not is the Sun, but Ra/Atum-Ra represents the central Milky Way light)

Hathor had a complex relationship with Ra. (See the Ogdoad below) At times she is the eye of Ra and considered his daughter, but she is also considered Ra's mother. She absorbed this role from another cow goddess Mehet-Weret ("Great flood") who was the mother of Ra in a creation myth and carried him between her horns. As a mother she gave birth to Ra each morning on the eastern horizon and as wife she conceives through union with him each day.

(This creative description is indeed very complex. But in fact, this complexity between the Milky Way goddess deals with the very subject of “self-procreation” and how cosmic elements and forms) are combined (via the central Milky Way light, Atum-Ra) to make fluent and firmer forms of all kinds in our Milky Way galaxy)



The Milky Way seen as it may have appeared to Ancient Egyptians

The Milky Way was seen as a waterway in the heavens, sailed upon by both the sun deity and the moon, leading the ancient Egyptians to describe it as The Nile in the Sky.

The Egyptian Ogdoad Story of Creation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad_(Egyptian)#The_Egyptian_Ogdoad
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogdoad_(Egyptian)#The_Egyptian_Ogdoad
The eight deities were arranged in four male-female pairs: Nu and Naunet; Amun and Amaunet; Kuk and Kauket; and Huh and Hauhet. The males were associated with frogs and females were associated with snakes. Apart from their gender, there was little to distinguish the male gods and female goddesses; indeed, the names of the females are merely derivative female forms of the male name.

(The paring of the creative forces can be directly connected to the modern electromagnetic principles and its double polarity)

Each pair represented the male and female aspects of one of the four concepts of primordial chaos as follows
The primordial waters (Nu and Naunet)
Air, invisibility, and hidden powers (Amun and Amaunet)
Darkness and obscurity (Kuk and Kauket)
Eternity or infinity (Huh and Hauhet).

(These are almost modern descriptions of cosmic conditions. The Primeval Waters represent the amount of cosmic hydrogen and helium in which everything floats in cosmos and can be compared directly with the modern scientific concept of the Micro Way Background Radiation observations.)

Together the four concepts represent the primal, fundamental state of the beginning. They are what always was. In the myth, however, their interaction ultimately proved to be unbalanced, resulting in the arising of a new entity. When the entity opened, it revealed Ra, the fiery sun, inside. After a long interval of rest, Ra, together with the other deities, created all other things and brought order to the universe.

(That is: “They are what they always was” = These elementary conditions are stated to be of eternal nature. When the elements are set in motion, this begins the creation of everything. When all the gaseous and metallic elements comes together = attracts, they create a central entity, the Milky Way Light, Atum-Ra, who, “together with other forces, created all other things and brought order” to the ancient known part of the Universe, the Milky Way. Again: “Ra” doesn´t represent the Sun but the Milky Way light)

Conclusion
Our ancestors really did know how the creative powers works in general in micro- and macrocosm, and this evidently also includes the very creation of the Milky Way and the Solar System.

It is just a question of modern people to read the numerus cultural Myths of Creation in a modern language and note their cosmic connections as real cosmic knowledge.

- It is my firm conviction that our ancestors knew and understood much more than modern science and its somewhat pure speculative assumptions, included a “Big Bang” and other metaphysical ideas as “dark matter”, “dark holes” and “dark energy”, which all IMO, just speaks of the lack of understanding the natural and circuital flows of creation itself.

 

[Etritonakin]

1. The 6-day creation,
2. creating stuffs with mere words (e.g. "Let there be light"),
3. creating a fully-grown man from dust and a fully-grown woman from man's rib,
4. the existence of fruit that gives everlasting life or that gives knowledge,
5. talking serpent,
6. man living for 900+ years.

1: The six days of Genesis happen an unspecified amount of time after the heavens and Earth were created -and after the Earth somehow became waste and ruin to an unspecified degree.
2: Creating by fiat is a matter of direct interface. Even humans have made themselves able to set complex things in motion by voice.
3: Certainly an oversimplification, but we are made of the dust of the ground -and even humans can take the material of one and affect another -even clone them.
4: The trees themselves are not significant -the decisions are. The actual fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was actually good for food -and even to make one "wise" in a way.
However, that way was by knowing good and evil -whereas obedience to God would have brought only good. As long as man was obedient, God would grant them access to the tree of life -which is essentially all that God knows and is able to do.
As man disobeyed, God limited their lifespan and set in motion a plan to remove any possibility of choosing incorrectly -that being experiencing both good and evil until evil was utterly rejected.
God was not surprised by their decision -purposefully allowed the devil to interact with them -knowing they really did not truly know God or the devil -and set in motion that which would cause them to know God by experience.
5: Not an actual serpent, but a spirit likened to a serpent -though perhaps the devil was literally represented by such at the time.
6: Just a tweak of the code. Man has already found that which determines longevity -but is not yet able to manipulate it.

 

[gnostic]

1: The six days of Genesis happen an unspecified amount of time after the heavens and Earth were created -and after the Earth somehow became waste and ruin to an unspecified degree.
2: Creating by fiat is a matter of direct interface. Even humans have made themselves able to set complex things in motion by voice.
3: Certainly an oversimplification, but we are made of the dust of the ground -and even humans can take the material of one and affect another -even clone them.
4: The trees themselves are not significant -the decisions are. The actual fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was actually good for food -and even to make one "wise" in a way.
However, that way was by knowing good and evil -whereas obedience to God would have brought only good. As long as man was obedient, God would grant them access to the tree of life -which is essentially all that God knows and is able to do.
As man disobeyed, God limited their lifespan and set in motion a plan to remove any possibility of choosing incorrectly -that being experiencing both good and evil until evil was utterly rejected.
God was not surprised by their decision -purposefully allowed the devil to interact with them -knowing they really did not truly know God or the devil -and set in motion that which would cause them to know God by experience.
5: Not an actual serpent, but a spirit likened to a serpent -though perhaps the devil was literally represented by such at the time.
6: Just a tweak of the code. Man has already found that which determines longevity -but is not yet able to manipulate it.

Nothing in any of those explanations of yours, are "scientific" in perspective, to the scriptures on creation or to your god.

Your explanation in those points, only reinforced the Genesis deity and the creation account can only be understood from theological and mythological perspectives.

You are injecting meanings into Genesis stories that are not there, showed that these explanations of yours are simply apologetic excuses, because you don't understand how science works, let alone nature.

Take for instance my point "creating a fully-grown man from dust".

Do you even know what dust is?

Dust is byproduct waste, completely useless in forming into living cells. what Genesis 2 is describing, is more akin to that of young plant sprouting or growing from the ground soils. We are not plants, Etritonakin, and we are not made of soil.

But even that analogy is highly inaccurate. Plants are not made from soils or dust. Plants come from seeds of other plants. The soil is merely nutrients that the plants can draw from the soil; the soil itself is lifeless.

And Adam and Eve were created, "fully-grown".

They were never babies, and never have childhood.

Even with cloning, clone don't become instant adult.

Such a thing of making instant adult clone, is nothing more than science fiction. When they cloned the sheep - that famous Dolly - scientists using cells and DNA from adult sheep to grow, still required Dolly to develop through successive stages, before the sheep can reach adulthood.

From inserting cells (and DNA) of one sheep, being ejected into an egg of another (2nd female) sheep, and then planting that egg into another (3rd) female sheep's womb, where the embryo is carried till birth. Dolly the sheep was born, just like any baby sheep. And Dolly still have to grow from being a lamb to adult sheep.

With Genesis 2, there were no stages of development for creating Eve. She was a fully-grown woman, made from Adam's rib.

And Eve is not a clone.

If Eve was truly a clone, then she would have been another man.

The whole of cloning, is making a "copy". Dolly the sheep had the same DNA, that was extracted from the mammary gland of a female sheep.

In actual cloning, if you use DNA and cells from a female, then the clone would be female. If you use male cells and DNA, then the clone would be male.

 

[whirlingmerc]

A problem is that 'science' studies ongoing processes and the way God made the world and the way God sustains the world don't have to be the same.

Also the purpose of the creation story is broader than mechanically explaining the originals of the physical world although it is a part.
God's people who made, as if from nothing, metaphorically
a nation from a couple past childbearing
a nation made in a formless and void dessert, in a sense

 

[gnostic]

A problem is that 'science' studies ongoing processes and the way God made the world and the way God sustains the world don't have to be the same.

Yes, that's true about science. Knowledge is acquired, is an ongoing process.

And yes, what Genesis described about creating the world is not the same.

Also the purpose of the creation story is broader than mechanically explaining the originals of the physical world although it is a part.

And here is where I have to disagree, especially the bold, red part.

Genesis DOESN'T EXPLAIN ANYTHING!

It say "this" or "that" thing, but it never EXPLAIN.

Saying:

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

And then go on about how light divided day from night.

None of that explain anything.

Seriously, how can there be "evening and morning", or cycles of evening and morning for 3 successive days of creation, WITHOUT the sun?!

If Genesis was "explaining", then it would have explained how the sun would shine on the surface of the Earth that it is facing, as our planet rotates. Genesis doesn't explain this.

For Genesis to explain where the light come from, it would have to explain how the sun heat incandescent the hydrogen gas. It doesn't.

Genesis creation leave out all explanations. This is why the bible is not a science book. It describes, but it never explain, because the author, whoever he or they may be, don't have any knowledge in science.

You are right that the Genesis doesn't have knowledge of the mechanism of the the natural world. If you truly want to understand the mechanisms of nature, then you need to learn it from science. Science EXPLAIN the WHAT and the HOW; Genesis doesn't.

 

[Native]

However, that way was by knowing good and evil -whereas obedience to God would have brought only good. As long as man was obedient, God would grant them access to the tree of life -which is essentially all that God knows and is able to do.

The monothistic interpretation of "One Male God" is a patriarchal reduction and exclusion of everything female. Most cultural stories of creation speaks of both a God AND a Goddess in the process of creation. Besides this, I don´t take "god" and "goddess" personally but as description of the two primary forces of creation in everything.

"Good and bad" is just connected to how humans live concordingly to everything what is created in nature and to how we behave against each other and all living things and natural elements.

 

[Etritonakin]

The monothistic interpretation of "One Male God" is a patriarchal reduction and exclusion of everything female. Most cultural stories of creation speaks of both a God AND a Goddess in the process of creation. Besides this, I don´t take "god" and "goddess" personally but as description of the two primary forces of creation in everything.

"Good and bad" is just connected to how humans live concordingly to everything what is created in nature and to how we behave against each other and all living things and natural elements.

God has no gender, as such. However, the human male/female/marriage/procreation relationship was made to be analogous to God's plan for us and his role as "Father".
Many analogies are also made to female roles -mother of us all, bride of Christ, birth pangs, travail, being brought forth from the womb, etc., when describing the process by which we will be born again as spirits.

John 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Good and evil are indeed based on logic, situation, nature, etc. -but there is only one overall situation, and the most basic nature of all things is God. God is perfect -and perfectly logical.
Because God does exist, if one does not acknowledge God exists (which will happen in time as God becomes known to all), one cannot have a solid foundation for decision-making or discerning good from evil overall.

 

[gnostic]

Personally, Native, I preferred the Milky Way myth of Heracles and Hera.

Heracles' mother, Alcmene, fearing the goddess' jealousy and anger, abandoned her baby in the woods. The goddess Athena took the infant Heracles to Hera. Not realising that the infant was her husband's another illegitimate child, Athena tricked Hera into breastfeeding Heracles. But when Heracles bit the goddess' nipple so hard, Hera drew her breast forcibly away from the infant's mouth, thereby spilling her milk across the heaven.

Hence the name Milky Way.

 

[gnostic]

Good and evil are indeed based on logic, situation, nature, etc. -but there is only one overall situation, and the most basic nature of all things is God. God is perfect -and perfectly logical.

Sorry, but I don't associate "god" with "nature".

There is nothing natural about god.

Nor do I think God have anything to do with logic.

Belief in a monotheistic god is like that of the polytheistic deities, based on superstitions and ignorance.

And last, but not least, I don't believe in "perfect" or "perfection".

The God of the bible is certainly not perfect. If God is perfect, then how possibly have human emotions, like love, jealousy and wrath?

What sort of god demands - obedience and worship?

What sort of God would inflict suffering and death over the game of wagers? (Job 1 & 2)

Take for instance, Exodus 20:

4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, 6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

That don't sound like a "perfect" God, Etritonakin. A "jealous" god who would hold grudges that he would even go so far as to punish children (and descendants to the 4th generation) for the sins of father.

And the god of the gospels is no better than that of god of the Exodus, who would punish those who don't follow and worship god, with the threats of eternal torment, fire and brimstone.

God sounds more like an oppressive tyrant.

 

[Etritonakin]

Sorry, but I don't associate "god" with "nature".

There is nothing natural about god.

Nor do I think God have anything to do with logic.

Belief in a monotheistic god is like that of the polytheistic deities, based on superstitions and ignorance.

And last, but not least, I don't believe in "perfect" or "perfection".

The God of the bible is certainly not perfect. If God is perfect, then how possibly have human emotions, like love, jealousy and wrath?

What sort of god demands - obedience and worship?

What sort of God would inflict suffering and death over the game of wagers? (Job 1 & 2)

Take for instance, Exodus 20:


That don't sound like a "perfect" God, Etritonakin. A "jealous" god who would hold grudges that he would even go so far as to punish children (and descendants to the 4th generation) for the sins of father.

And the god of the gospels is no better than that of god of the Exodus, who would punish those who don't follow and worship god, with the threats of eternal torment, fire and brimstone.

God sounds more like an oppressive tyrant.

It may not be immediately apparent, but God is described as a refiner's fire.
Visiting the iniquities of the fathers upon later generations is not the same as holding later generations responsible for the sins of the fathers.

There is nothing wrong with feeling jealousy. It is a natural response to unfaithfulness. Being jealous without cause is different.
Righteous jealousy is that which seeks to make a relationship as it should be.

The events described in Job seem quite cruel and strange -but they must be viewed from the perspective of the end result. Those things will be nullified -but perfect beings will remain.
Dead people will no longer be dead -the former things will not be remembered, etc., but the experience will benefit all (unpleasant as it was temporarily).

If you read one or two verses about what is generally described as "hell", it definitely does not make sense.
Those verses must be taken with all others.

All of the other verses about Gehenna, hell fire, etc. must be taken with the following....
1 Cor 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

[gnostic]

There is nothing wrong with feeling jealousy. It is a natural response to unfaithfulness. Being jealous without cause is different.

That's only partially right.

Jealousy can be the result of unfaithfulness. But not all jealousy is the direct result of unfaithfulness. Unfaithfulness is just one of several possibilities; it isn't the only one.

To give you an example. Two perfect strangers encounter each other for the first time. One person falls in love with the other, but this other person doesn't feel the way. And because that other person don't love the first person, the first person will feel jealousy, as well as possibly resentment and anger.

But my real point is there are no relationship between the two strangers, because the feelings are not shared, so there is no "faith" for the existence of this jealousy.

Jealousy don't necessarily require faith, as my example show.

Punishing a person, who don't believe in or worship this one god, only demonstrate that this one god is a tyrant.

I know, I know. God made a pact or covenant with Abraham. But to punishing a person for choosing another god to worship or to follow another religion, just showed that covenant is actually unreasonable. What happen to free will?

A person should each follow and believe what he or she like, without such oppressive decree from a tyrannical deity, who demands worship, whether it via love or fear.

The Exodus (20:5), JOB and that of NT fire-and-brimstone examples only demonstrates that the Abrahamic religions rely heavily on fear, to bend people through oppressive rules. They are examples of religious intolerance.