Can a JW please answer this one question, pretty please?

[PruePhillip]

And... Nazareth was a bad town from a bad province. Another reason God gave the Jews to reject
Jesus.
Yep...real good excuse that one. The Messiah would never come from a bad town in a bad province....how many bad towns did Jesus and his disciples visit looking for the "lost sheep"?

You don't get my point. God sent "strong delusion" into the Jewish heart by giving the Jews a Galilean Messiah.
Those will to look past Jesus' own "background" and his lowliness and plainness of speech and looks - only
were able to see who he really was.

 

[PruePhillip]

You are wrong:

What is breathtaking about these endless prophecies about the return of Christ and/or end
of the "system of things" is that Jesus Himself did not know when this would happen. It was
Miller, Russel and Rutherford who "knew" - and later of course the WatchTower continued
with the miss-prophecies.
To me all JW beliefs start and end right there.

 

[Clear]

REGARDING SPECIFIC JEHOVAHS’ WITNESS THEOLOGY

@Deeje : Thank you so much for providing clear and simple answers to these specific questions. I would like to clarify further if I may.

1) THE NATURE OF ADAMS' "LIFE" BESTOWED UPON THE BODY CREATED FOR HIM IN JEHOVAHS WITNESS INTERPRETATION
Clear asked : “Do the Jehovahs Witnesses’ movement theorize that a “soul” is simply a “body” and the “breath”? (post #91)
Deeje responded : “God formed Adam's body from the elements of the earth and "breathed" into his nostrils "the breath of life" which is "spirit" according to the original language words. By starting him breathing, God made him a soul (a breather) which is a term also applied to animals in the Genesis account. (post #98)

Do I understand correctly, the J.W. interpretation is that Adams body is given “breath” or “spirit” in exactly the same model as other animals or is there something different about the process for animals? Is the type of “breath” or “spirit” in J.W. interpretation different than that of animals? (I am trying to understand if J.W. interpretation differentiates the “breath” Adam is given from the ‘breath” the initial animals are given. (Obviously man is more intelligent, but I am speaking to TYPE of breath/spirit, and not AMOUNT of intelligence).

Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the personality traits and characteristics Adam had were created by God and placed in Adam (since he had no "upbringing" to which we can attribute his personality, his language skills, his moral traits and other characteristics this "new" human had after he was given "life")?


2) THE ORIGIN OF OUR INTELLIGENCE AND OUR PERSONALITY AND OUR EMOTIONS (LOVE, ETC) IN JEHOVAHS WITNESS INTERPRETATION
Clear asked : “Where does the intelligence and personal traits that are inherent in a newborn infant originate in J.W. theology? (post #91)
Deeje responded : “All the information that determines one's inherited features and personality is already in their DNA(post #98)

This is a similar answer to my High School biology book. However, the book was written from the standpoint of an atheistic science. IS there a difference between the atheist claim that DNA determines biological characteristics of individuals born nowadays and the J.W. claim that DNA determines basic biological characteristics of individuals born nowadays? If it differs, how do the two claims differ?


3) THE ACCUMULATION OF LEARNING AND INTELLIGENCE AND PERSONALITY AND OUR EMOTIONS (LOVE, ETC) IN JEHOVAHS WITNESS INTERPRETATION
Clear asked : “Where does the intelligence that is inherent in a newborn infant reside? (post #91)
Deeje responded : “All that this little human will become is gradually added to the infinite memory banks in the brain…(post #98)

Again, this is similar to the atheistic biological answer, that the physical brain is the source of intelligent actions and memory and personality. Does the J.W. answer differ from the atheistic answer on this specific point? If it is different, how does it differ?


Deeje responded : "But God also has infinite memory and when we have breathed our last breath, all that was us is stored in his memory banks(post #98)

So, by this, am I to understand that ALL of what was the prior person is annihilated (i.e. body and personal characteristics of the person decay and are non-existent) but that God remembers the characteristics and memories of that person who once existed?


4) THE NATURE OF THE RESURRECTED PERSON WHO CORRESPONDS TO THE PRE-RESURRECTED PERSON WHO HAD DIED IN JEHOVAHS WITNESS INTERPRETATION
Clear asked : “Upon resurrection, Does God take a memory of the prior person and put it into a new person in the same form it existed prior to death or does God change these characteristics and create a new and better person that is more suited for heaven? (i.e. does God create a “new” person that is like the one that died, but without many of the prior social and moral imperfections…)(post #91)
Deeje responded : “Raised to be spirit beings capable of dwelling in the presence of God, they are transformed and given a completely new body. (post #98)

Deeje responded : “ones who were young stayed young and the older ones stayed the age they were when sickness befell them. In the new world there will be no death, so the old will go back to the days of their youth and the young will never go beyond maturity. (post #98)

Am I to understand that this process of creating this new person involves God making a new body that is immortal (i.e. will not die or get sick) but of various ages, (some very old, some youth and some small infants) that remain their current age and then God “downloads” (for lack of a better word) the prior persons memories and characteristics into this new body?

Is it correct to assume that you believe God will have to put another "spirit" or "breath" into this new post-resurrection body to make it alive?

Does Jehovahs Witness theology believe God will change the moral and personality characteristics of this new person he creates? For example, one assumes the prior mortal person had personality defects and moral imperfections such as telling lies or bragging or pride, that would cause problems and disrupt the harmony of a socially perfect heaven etc. Will God remove imperfections and change the personality of this new person that the new person is able to interact with others without imperfections so that heaven can remain perfectly harmonious and joyful?


I must admit that I honestly did not know this type of Christian interpretation existed. It is so very different than the interpretations of the early Jews and the early Christian interpretation they themselves describe in their early Judeo-Chritian literature where there is a spirit that is in the body and leaves at death. This is not to say it is better or worse than early Christian interpretations, just different than theirs that they describe in their literature. My religious interests have centered so much about ancient historical Judeo-Christianity, that I honestly do not know much about the various modern Christian movements and their various systems of interpretations.

Thank you again in advance for your honest and specific and plain answers @Deeje.

Clear
ειτζτζσιω

 

[ecco]

New Testament teaching
Slavery - didn't comment on topic, urged 'masters' to treat 'servants' with dignity and respect. Whosoever leads
into slavery will be led into slavery.
Killing - not acceptable.
Rape - not acceptable
Eschewing pork - whatever enters the mouth does not defile a person.

RE: The one about entering a mouth, are you asserting that the NT approves of homosexual oral sex?


The only problem with your attempted apologetics is that Christian scripture is the New Testament and the Old Testament. Marcion lost, remember?

Secular teaching
humility - considered a bad thing
gravitas - the word is hardly known anymore
forgiveness - you have to stand up for yourself
marriage fidelity - increasingly unfashionable
personal responsibility - slowly being replaced with collective, political ethics
morality - see my tag below.

You take a bunch of words and claim they represent secular teaching. Now all you need to do is produce evidence showing that it is more than just your biased opinion.

 

[ecco]

morality - see my tag below.

Your tag:

2001-2015 Gallop figures on approval rates for moral issues in USA:
Gay lesbian 40 to 63%. Baby outside marriage 45 to 61%. Casual sex 53 to 68%.
Divorce 59 to 71%. Polygamy 7 to 16%. Doctor suicide 49 to 56%.Personal suicide
13 to 19%. Gambling 63 to 67%. Abortion 42 to 45%. Married men having affairs 7 to 8%.​

What is your point? You list your religion as "None" yet you write like a Christian. You do realize that 75% of the people taking the poll are christians - right?

 

[ecco]

Deeje responded : “All the information that determines one's inherited features and personality is already in their DNA(post #98)

This is a similar answer to my High School biology book. However, the book was written from the standpoint of an atheistic science.

What "atheist science" are you talking about? I'm under the impression that knowledge of DNA is accepted by Christians and Jews.

 

[Clear]

Hi Ecco

Perhaps my words are not clear. By using the term "athiestic science" I was trying to exclude any "metaphysical" beliefs of early Judeo-Christianity where intelligence, emotions such as love, and personality resided in a spirit existing separate from the physical body. I wanted to understand if the J.W. interpretation encompased a "non-metaphysical" position where intelligence and emotions and personality exist ONLY within the physical neurons of a physical brain. I thought the word "athiest" would imply that no involvement from any spiritual realm was involved.

So far, I think the Jehovahs Witness answer seems to indicate that they believe that there is no spirit within mankind that is the locus for intelligence and emotions and personality, but instead, I think their position on this point is that all those characteristics all that makes up a person resides in the physical brain.

I actually am a medical clinician by employment and diagnose and treat on the basis of physical medicine and I occassionally order genetic testing on my patients, so I do not eschew biological science or the concept of DNA as a locus of information (not necessarily intelligence). I actually think that true science and true religion are exactly the same thing. There are no separate "truths" in my mind. I was simply trying to make a "spiritual" versus "physical" distinction.

Clear
ειτζδρτζω

 

[ecco]

Perhaps my words are not clear. By using the term "athiestic science" I was trying to exclude any "metaphysical" beliefs of early Judeo-Christianity where intelligence, emotions such as love, and personality resided in a spirit existing separate from the physical body.

For future reference, I think just using the word "science" excludes any "metaphysical" beliefs.

 

[Deeje]

Do I understand correctly, the J.W. interpretation is that Adams body is given “breath” or “spirit” in exactly the same model as other animals or is there something different about the process for animals? Is the type of “breath” or “spirit” in J.W. interpretation different than that of animals? (I am trying to understand if J.W. interpretation differentiates the “breath” Adam is given from the ‘breath” the initial animals are given. (Obviously man is more intelligent, but I am speaking to TYPE of breath/spirit, and not AMOUNT of intelligence).

Since "souls" in the Genesis account also include animals, the basic meaning of the word "neʹphesh" is a "breather". So in his lament on the inconsistency of animals and humans dying the same death when humans alone were created in God's image and likeness, Solomon wrote....

"I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:18-20)

He was not privy to the information about man's ultimate future that would be revealed later through Jesus Christ.

Now Solomon did not say that these souls were spirits but that all had one spirit (Heb "ruʹach "; Greek "pneuʹma").
The Greek word is the basis for English words such as "pneumatic" or "pneumonia", relating to air and breath. So what God did to start Adam breathing, was to put that first breath in his lungs, in much the same way as a newborn takes its first breath. In them, breathing is a programmed response to being born, whereas with Adam it was an action undertaken by God to begin his life, which life could then be passed on to the next generation. Life comes from life.

Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the personality traits and characteristics Adam had were created by God and placed in Adam (since he had no "upbringing" to which we can attribute his personality, his language skills, his moral traits and other characteristics this "new" human had after he was given "life")?

Adam was a direct creation of God, but certainly not his first intelligent creation. Angels (spirit beings) existed long before material creation and these also have various personalities as free willed creatures. If they were not free willed then satan could never have rebelled and taken so many of his contemporaries with him.

In creating this first human, (although there is scant detail) it says in Genesis that God undertook to educate Adam himself. We do not believe that the creative days were merely 24 hour periods. We believe as science knows, that the earth is ancient and that the creatures on it are ancient as well. That means that there was plenty of time to educate Adam before he was given a mate.

That being the case, Adam was molded by his Father, and having been 'made in God's image and likeness', there was no sin in him to lead him in the wrong direction. That had to come from external influences, altering his perceptions. Under the circumstances in which God created humans, there was to be no such influence and no knowledge of good and evil...so perfectly ideal from God's standpoint initially. He would continue to educate his children as they grew and expanded their kind into all the earth as he told them to do. Humans are educators so the process of imparting knowledge was to be passed on to the next generation.

This is a similar answer to my High School biology book. However, the book was written from the standpoint of an atheistic science. IS there a difference between the atheist claim that DNA determines biological characteristics of individuals born nowadays and the J.W. claim that DNA determines basic biological characteristics of individuals born nowadays? If it differs, how do the two claims differ?

Just because science is accepted by atheists, doesn't mean that science itself is atheistic. Science is a product of the Creator, not a product of man. All man does is discover what God has made, and he is still trying to figure it all out. Its nigh on impossible without God in the picture as it leaves so many unanswered questions which are usually filled in with guesswork.

We are the product of our gene pool. The rest of our personality is formed as we are influenced by upbringing. We manifest our inherited personality traits quite early, but the ones from our upbringing can alter who we become especially if there is trauma or abuse.

Again, this is similar to the atheistic biological answer, that the physical brain is the source of intelligent actions and memory and personality. Does the J.W. answer differ from the atheistic answer on this specific point? If it is different, how does it differ?

We do not differ in the explanation, only in the future potential for that person to be restored to life, with all memories intact.

So, by this, am I to understand that ALL of what was the prior person is annihilated (i.e. body and personal characteristics of the person decay and are non-existent) but that God remembers the characteristics and memories of that person who once existed?

If God can remember all the billions of stars in billions of galaxies by name, why couldn't he remember a few billion humans on this small planet? According to scripture, there is nothing that remains of a human after death except a body. The dead are conscious of nothing, according to scripture. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10; Psalm 146:4)

 

[Deeje]

Am I to understand that this process of creating this new person involves God making a new body that is immortal (i.e. will not die or get sick) but of various ages, (some very old, some youth and some small infants) that remain their current age and then God “downloads” (for lack of a better word) the prior persons memories and characteristics into this new body?

Is it correct to assume that God will have to put another "spirit" or "breath" into this new post-resurrection body to make it alive?

Material creatures cannot be immortal. They rely on external things to stay alive...air, food, water, and shelter to a lesser extent....if you deprive them of any of those things, they will die. What God gave man initially was the ability to keep living without aging sickness or death ever being part of the human experience.....but they lost it by disobeying their Creator.

When God restores his original purpose for this earth, it says of Jesus, in Acts 3:21...
"Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old."

This restoration all of all things was prophesied through God's prophets of old....ones like Isaiah. (Isaiah 11 & 65) giving us glimpses of wonderful things to come....

"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart. . . .
20 “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days,
Nor an old man who fails to live out his days.
For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy,
And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.
21 They will build houses and live in them,
And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.
22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
Nor will they plant for others to eat.
For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.
23 They will not toil for nothing,
Nor will they bear children for distress,
Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah,
And their descendants with them.
24 Even before they call out, I will answer;
While they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
The lion will eat straw just like the bull,
And the serpent’s food will be dust.
They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah."

Will God change the moral and personality characteristics of this new person he creates? For example, one assumes the prior mortal person had personality defects and moral imperfections such as telling lies or bragging or pride, that would cause problems and disrupt the harmony of a socially perfect heaven etc. Will God remove imperfections and change the personality of this new person that the new person is able to interact with others without imperfections so that heaven can remain perfectly harmonious and joyful?

Since Christ died to forgive sin, those who have had no opportunity to know God or to hear about his son will be given a second chance by means of the resurrection. Both the righteous and the unrighteous are called out of their graves so that their own free will can be exercised to make a choice to serve God, or not to serve him. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15) The incorrigibly wicked however will not get a second opportunity. They are consigned to "gehenna" a place representing eternal death. No one comes back from there.

I must admit that I honestly did not know this type of Christian interpretation existed in any modern Christian movement. It is so very different than the interpretations of the early Jews and the early Christian interpretation they themselves describe in their early Judeo-Chritian literature where there is a spirit that is in the body and leaves at death.

The idea of an immortal soul is rife in all false worship the world over....it is the one thing they have in common because their founder has an agenda...to perpetuate the first lie that he told the woman in Eden..."you surely will not die". Jesus said he was the father of the lie and that is why.
We do die, just as God said. Adam simply returned to the dust.

Both Judaism and Christianity were corrupted in the same way, as it was foretold, so both abandoned the truth of God's word in favor of man-made traditions.

This is not to say it is better or worse than early Christian interpretations, just different than theirs that they describe in their literature. My religious interests have centered so much about ancient historical Judeo-Christianity, that I honestly do not know much about the various modern Christian movements and their various systems of interpretations.

We have merely returned to the original teaching that is in the Hebrew scriptures and reiterated in the Christian scriptures. Christ never mentioned an immortal soul....in fact you will not find those words side by side in any passage of scripture.

Thank you again in advance for your honest and specific and plain answers @Deeje.

Always happy to answer sincere questions.

 

[PruePhillip]

The only problem with your attempted apologetics is that Christian scripture is the New Testament and the Old Testament. Marcion lost, remember?

Is Marcion another Roman Catholic? I don't even know what Catholic doctrine is.
The OT concerned three aspects
1- commandments (moral behavior, ie love, forgiveness etc..)
2 - ordinances (rituals of the priesthood, the Levites etc..)
3 - judgements (divorce laws, inheritance etc..)

Christianity imposes just one - the Commandments, and they are imposed more harshly.
ie Adultery was an OT sin, Adultery Plus was the NT belief, ie even thinking about it.)

 

[JJ50]

Material creatures cannot be immortal. They rely on external things to stay alive...air, food, water, and shelter to a lesser extent....if you deprive them of any of those things, they will die. What God gave man initially was the ability to keep living without aging sickness or death ever being part of the human experience.....but they lost it by disobeying their Creator.

When God restores his original purpose for this earth, it says of Jesus, in Acts 3:21...
"Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old."

This restoration all of all things was prophesied through God's prophets of old....ones like Isaiah. (Isaiah 11 & 65) giving us glimpses of wonderful things to come....

"For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth;
And the former things will not be called to mind,
Nor will they come up into the heart. . . .
20 “No more will there be an infant from that place who lives but a few days,
Nor an old man who fails to live out his days.
For anyone who dies at a hundred will be considered a mere boy,
And the sinner will be cursed, even though he is a hundred years of age.
21 They will build houses and live in them,
And they will plant vineyards and eat their fruitage.
22 They will not build for someone else to inhabit,
Nor will they plant for others to eat.
For the days of my people will be like the days of a tree,
And the work of their hands my chosen ones will enjoy to the full.
23 They will not toil for nothing,
Nor will they bear children for distress,
Because they are the offspring made up of those blessed by Jehovah,
And their descendants with them.
24 Even before they call out, I will answer;
While they are yet speaking, I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
The lion will eat straw just like the bull,
And the serpent’s food will be dust.
They will do no harm nor cause any ruin in all my holy mountain,” says Jehovah."




Since Christ died to forgive sin, those who have had no opportunity to know God or to hear about his son will be given a second chance by means of the resurrection. Both the righteous and the unrighteous are called out of their graves so that their own free will can be exercised to make a choice to serve God, or not to serve him. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15) The incorrigibly wicked however will not get a second opportunity. They are consigned to "gehenna" a place representing eternal death. No one comes back from there.



The idea of an immortal soul is rife in all false worship the world over....it is the one thing they have in common because their founder has an agenda...to perpetuate the first lie that he told the woman in Eden..."you surely will not die". Jesus said he was the father of the lie and that is why.
We do die, just as God said. Adam simply returned to the dust.

Both Judaism and Christianity were corrupted in the same way, as it was foretold, so both abandoned the truth of God's word in favor of man-made traditions.



We have merely returned to the original teaching that is in the Hebrew scriptures and reiterated in the Christian scriptures. Christ never mentioned an immortal soul....in fact you will not find those words side by side in any passage of scripture.



Always happy to answer sincere questions.

Humans are animals just like any other species.

 

[PruePhillip]

Humans are animals just like any other species.

Yes and no. We use the term "animal" in various ways.
Some say "birds and animals" but science says birds ARE animals.
So too are corals and sponges.
Generally an "animal" ought to be thought of as belonging a group
of critters similar to us, but not actually us. At least in the context of
everyday language.
Same as saying "at sun rise" despite knowing the sun doesn't "rise."

This begs the question - was Homo erectus an 'animal' or a 'human' ?
What of Homo neanderthal?
It's largely semantics.

 

[JJ50]

Yes and no. We use the term "animal" in various ways.
Some say "birds and animals" but science says birds ARE animals.
So too are corals and sponges.
Generally an "animal" ought to be thought of as belonging a group
of critters similar to us, but not actually us. At least in the context of
everyday language.
Same as saying "at sun rise" despite knowing the sun doesn't "rise."

This begs the question - was Homo erectus an 'animal' or a 'human' ?
What of Homo neanderthal?
It's largely semantics.

I think Neanderthals were a sub species of the human animal, which are now thought to be extinct. However, I can think of one world leader who seems to have much in common with them, or maybe that is being very unfair to Neanderthals.

 

[PruePhillip]

I think Neanderthals were a sub species of the human animal, which are now thought to be extinct. However, I can think of one world leader who seems to have much in common with them, or maybe that is being very unfair to Neanderthals.

One wag put it that Neanderthals are more successful in extinction than they
were in the flesh - meaning their genes are in billions of people today.
But they were successful far longer than modern African humans are -
and they had larger brains too.
Frankly, we don't even know what a "species" is anymore. Science teaches
us of our ignorance.
And it's tricky - does the earth orbit the sun? Yes and no. Depends upon the
"observer" according to Einstein. It's fine to say the earth is the center of the
universe, or even, that YOU are the center, in a narcissistic sciency' sort of way.

 

[Clear]

Hi @Deeje;

It is very interesting to see how Jehovahs Witnesses interpret scripture and create their system of doctrines. Thank you so much for your conciseness. There is still some clarifying that I’d like if you will.


1) REGARDING "MATERIAL" BEINGS NOT BEING ABLE TO BE IMMORTAL - HOW DOES THIS APPLY TO A MATERIAL ADAM?
Deeje mentioned in post #98 : “God formed Adam's body from the elements of the earth and "breathed" into his nostrils "the breath of life" which is "spirit" according to the original language words. (post #98)
Deeje clarified : Material creatures cannot be immortal. They rely on external things to stay alive…What God gave man initially was the ability to keep living without aging sickness or death (post #110)

If a ‘material” creature cannot be immortal in J.W. theory, then do Jehovahs Witnesses theorize original Adam was NOT immortal (because he was material), or do they theorize that he was somehow “immaterial” and thus could be immortal?



2) REGARDING GOD PROVIDING EDUCATION TO ADAM
Clear asked : Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the personality traits and characteristics Adam had were created by God and placed in Adam (since he had no "upbringing" to which we can attribute his personality, his language skills, his moral traits and other characteristics this "new" human had after he was given "life")? (post #103)

Deeje answered : “…it says in Genesis that God undertook to educate Adam himself. (post #109)

Thank you for the answer. Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that part of this education God provided Adam was moral education regarding moral knowledge. That is, do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that God taught Adam “right and wrong”, “Truth and error”, “Good and Evil”?


3) Regarding the Jehovahs Witness interpretation that pure biology determines the characteristics at birth :

Clear asked : IS there a difference between the atheist claim that DNA determines biological characteristics of individuals born nowadays and the J.W. claim that DNA determines basic biological characteristics of individuals born nowadays? If it differs, how do the two claims differ?

Deeje answered : We are the product of our gene pool. The rest of our personality is formed as we are influenced by upbringing. (#109)
Deeje answered : We do not differ in the explanation, only in the future potential for that person to be restored to life, with all memories intact.(#109)

These are clear and concise answers. Thank you Deeje.



4) REGARDING POST RESURRECTION "RE-CREATION" OF INDIVIDUALS. ARE THE "RE-CREATIONS" THE SAME OR DIFFERENT THAN THE ORIGINALS?
Clear asked regarding post resurrection people : “Will God change the moral and personality characteristics of this new person he creates? For example, one assumes the prior mortal person had personality defects and moral imperfections such as telling lies or bragging or pride, that would cause problems and disrupt the harmony of a socially perfect heaven etc. Will God remove imperfections and change the personality of this new person that the new person is able to interact with others without imperfections so that heaven can remain perfectly harmonious and joyful?” (post #103)
Deeje said : …those who have had no opportunity to know God or to hear about his son will be given a second chance by means of the resurrection…. their own free will can be exercised to make a choice to serve God, or not to serve him……etc, etc. (post #110)

While you made statements, i could not find the answers to the specific question I asked. Do J.Witnesses believe God will modify moral and personality defects of those who he “re-creates” and places into the post resurrection heaven?


@Deeje, thank you for the information you are providing.

Clear
ειειδρσιω

 

[Deeje]

1) REGARDING "MATERIAL" BEINGS NOT BEING ABLE TO BE IMMORTAL - HOW DOES THIS APPLY TO A MATERIAL ADAM?
Deeje mentioned in post #98 : “God formed Adam's body from the elements of the earth and "breathed" into his nostrils "the breath of life" which is "spirit" according to the original language words. (post #98)
Deeje clarified : Material creatures cannot be immortal. They rely on external things to stay alive…What God gave man initially was the ability to keep living without aging sickness or death (post #110)

If a ‘material” creature cannot be immortal in J.W. theory, then do Jehovahs Witnesses theorize original Adam was NOT immortal (because he was material), or do they theorize that he was somehow “immaterial” and thus could be immortal?

I believe that most people confuse immortality with everlasting life. They are not the same. Immortality means that life is indestructible. No one can destroy the life of an immortal....yet initially, God gave humans the ability and opportunity to live forever, but imposed the death penalty to his command not to eat of the forbidden fruit. If humans were immortal, then the death penalty would have been meaningless.

Also it is apparent that angels too are not immortal, even though they can live forever without the need for external things to continue living. They have no natural cause of death, just as humans originally had no natural cause of death. To give his intelligent creatures free will and not be able to deal with those who might abuse it, would have been completely counter productive.

Belief in an immortal soul gave rise to a problem. If a free willed being rebelled, then what would God do with them if their lives cannot end? Their solution was to invent places like "hell" and "purgatory" to accommodate the wicked in some kind of torturous eternal prison. That was never in the original plan, because God placed it in his own jurisdiction to end the existence of those who took the gift of life and just abused it.
All humans were ever offered was everlasting life or everlasting death.....that's it. Simple.

2) REGARDING GOD PROVIDING EDUCATION TO ADAM
Clear asked : Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the personality traits and characteristics Adam had were created by God and placed in Adam (since he had no "upbringing" to which we can attribute his personality, his language skills, his moral traits and other characteristics this "new" human had after he was given "life")? (post #103)

Deeje answered : “…it says in Genesis that God undertook to educate Adam himself. (post #109)

Thank you for the answer. Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that part of this education God provided Adam was moral education regarding moral knowledge. That is, do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that God taught Adam “right and wrong”, “Truth and error”, “Good and Evil”?

Remembering that God created man in his image and with his moral qualities, there would have been no need to instil qualities that they already possessed, (no sin meant that immoral things were not even in their consciousness. The first thing sin did was alert them to the fact that they were naked, only then capable of immoral thoughts)....also, the "knowledge of good and evil" was never given to these first humans because rebellion in God's spiritual family had not been experienced up until that point. God kept that knowledge to himself because he never intended evil to ever be part of human experience. All they had to do was obey their Sovereign Creator, who had provided everything the needed in abundance. They had no reason or excuse to doubt his love or to disobey his command. It's not like he didn't try to prevent abuse of free will, but influence from outside of themselves, prompted a chain reaction in humans, with dire consequences.

They knew that God had been a good and loving provider and because of Adam's education, his bond with his God would have been much stronger than his wife's......hence she was a better target for satan to use in order to accomplish his takeover. They both disobeyed their God, but for entirely different reasons. The devil's crafty plan worked. He separated them from their God and now, in their sinful state, they were open to his continued influence.

God allowed this because he had the long range view in mind. A quick fix by eliminating the rebels would not have addressed the accusations that the devil aimed at his Creator. Nothing would have prevented another "satan" from repeating the process, so God allowed time to settle the issue of his Universal Sovereignty, once and for all. Who has the right to rule humans and to set limits for the exercise of their free will? Whose way is right and most of all, beneficial?

4) REGARDING POST RESURRECTION "RE-CREATION" OF INDIVIDUALS. ARE THE "RE-CREATIONS" THE SAME OR DIFFERENT THAN THE ORIGINALS?
Clear asked regarding post resurrection people : “Will God change the moral and personality characteristics of this new person he creates? For example, one assumes the prior mortal person had personality defects and moral imperfections such as telling lies or bragging or pride, that would cause problems and disrupt the harmony of a socially perfect heaven etc. Will God remove imperfections and change the personality of this new person that the new person is able to interact with others without imperfections so that heaven can remain perfectly harmonious and joyful?” (post #103)
Deeje said : …those who have had no opportunity to know God or to hear about his son will be given a second chance by means of the resurrection…. their own free will can be exercised to make a choice to serve God, or not to serve him……etc, etc. (post #110)

While you made statements, i could not find the answers to the specific question I asked. Do J.Witnesses believe God will modify moral and personality defects of those who he “re-creates” and places into the post resurrection heaven?

Personality is something Jesus' miracles did not alter. Unless someone was suffering mental illness as a direct result of demon possession, his healing and resurrections did not alter their DNA. Those with violent dispositions caused by the demons, lost those inclinations once that influence was gone. If you look at the heinous activities of some humans down through history to the present day, you will see the word "inhuman" applied to their actions....it essentially means "not human".....such is the ability of the demons to influence human thinking and actions.

We don't believe in a post resurrection "heaven" except for the "elect" or "chosen ones" who will share with Christ in ruling this earth. We believe that the majority of humans will be resurrected as they were meant to be, as mortals living forever on a cleansed earth. (2 Peter 3:13)

God did not design the earth as a training ground for heaven. This earth was meant to be our permanent home. According to Isaiah 55:11, whatever God sets out to do will be brought to a successful conclusion. Everlasting life was always meant to be lived here, but disobedient humans and rebel angels forced God to detour his original purpose around that rebellion with a view to arriving back at the original destination, right on time.

You see we believe that the 7th day was designed by God to accommodate any issues that might arise as a result of free will not being used as God intended. Since there is a declaration at the end of each creative day that everything was "good" and even "very good" at the conclusion of his material creation, we see the 7th day as still continuing and achieving all that God intended, and to address any and all problems before he takes us back to the conditions he gave humans to enjoy in Eden. The 7th day will yet be declared..."very good".

It makes the Bible one story....what God began in Genesis, has gone through its refining process, identifying those who will be given opportunity to enjoy what God originally created, and being taken "home" to the life that is programmed into appreciative hearts. Sadly, not all humans have them.

I think we all know that this life is a huge disappointment, compared to what we have as a vision of what it could be...or should be. The Earth itself is magnificent, but the people on it have made it into a place that is almost unfit for human habitation......a violent, immoral garbage dump.

Jesus promised that "the meek will inherit the earth".....they will not inherit this poor excuse for a life. God is going to clean up this earth and deal with all who have purposely disrespected his creation and sullied his name. (Revelation 18:4)

We believe that time is closer than its ever been. We are more than ready to go "home".

@Deeje, thank you for the information you are providing.

Clear
ειειδρσιω

Happy to oblige.

 

[PruePhillip]

I
Jesus promised that "the meek will inherit the earth".....they will not inherit this poor excuse for a life. God is going to clean up this earth and deal with all who have purposely disrespected his creation and sullied his name. (Revelation 18:4)
We believe that time is closer than its ever been. We are more than ready to go "home".
Happy to oblige.

The 144,000 of Revelations refers to 12,000 from each tribe of Israel.
It's purely symbolic - like everything else in Revelation. Speaks elsewhere
of the ten thousand times ten thousand around the throne - but that's
symbolic too.

What the JW's do is define a belief and then find supporting text to back
this up, and ignore texts which don't back this up. Let's hope there will
soon be "New Light" from the Governing Body on this issue. We are
starting to see changes with Armageddon dates, blood transfusions and
the like. And best of all, let's see an end to Shunning.

 

[Clear]

@Deeje, thank you for your comments.


1) REGARDING THE INITIAL CONDITION OF ADAM - WAS HE IMMORTAL IN JEHOVAHS WITNESS INTERPRETATION
Deeje claimed : Material creatures cannot be immortal. They rely on external things to stay alive…What God gave man initially was the ability to keep living without aging sickness or death (post #110)
Clear asked : If a ‘material” creature cannot be immortal in J.W. theory, then do Jehovahs Witnesses theorize original Adam was NOT immortal (because he was material), or do they theorize that he was somehow “immaterial” and thus could be immortal? (post #116)

Post #117 Deeje claimed : “Immortality means that life is indestructible.” (post #117)
This is incorrect. Immortality simply means one is not mortal. The resulting dictionary meaning is “the ability to live forever” (i.e. an unending living existence), NOT that God (or someone else) could not destroy that person.. Adam, initially, HAD the ability to live forever in most Judeo-Christian traditions. Do the J.Witnesses think Adam initially did NOT have the ability to live forever?

You also did not answer the question I actually asked.
You said a “material” creature cannot be immortal”. However Adam was, initially, BOTH “immortal” AND he was “material”. These are incompatible and conflicting points.

To justify this conflict, I asked IF J.Ws theorize Adam was NOT immortal (i.e. did not have the ability to live forever) OR if J.Ws Theorize Adam was “immaterial”?

Can you answer this specific question?





2) REGARDING GOD PROVIDING EDUCATION TO ADAM
Clear asked : Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the personality traits and characteristics Adam had were created by God and placed in Adam (since he had no "upbringing" to which we can attribute his personality, his language skills, his moral traits and other characteristics this "new" human had after he was given "life")? (post #103)
Deeje answered : “…it says in Genesis that God undertook to educate Adam himself. (post #109)
Clear asked : “Do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that part of this education God provided Adam was moral education regarding moral knowledge. That is, do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that God taught Adam “right and wrong”, “Truth and error”, “Good and Evil”? (Post #116)

Your answer in post #117 raises as many questions as it answers :

You answered my question regarding Adams ultimate moral education and moral knowledge by saying that “God created man in his image and with his moral qualities…” (Deeje, Post 117)

IF Adam possessed “the Moral Qualities of God” then this raises questions as to why Adam did not act in harmony with Godly knowledge and Godly moral qualities you say he possessed.

However, You also claimed that “the "knowledge of good and evil" was never given to these first humans” (Deeje, Post 117)

You claimed that that Adam was created "with [Gods'] moral qualities" (which include moral knowledge of Good and Evil) BUT then you claim that “the knowledge of good and evil was never given to these first humans.”

This conflict is confusing. Can you clear up the appearance of conflict between these claims?

Also, can you give me the reference that explains God undertook to “educate Adam himself”? (I agree that God provided education to Adam, I just want to read your reference.)




3) REGARDING POST RESURRECTION "RE-CREATION" OF INDIVIDUALS. ARE THE "RE-CREATIONS" OF INDIVIDUALS THE SAME OR DIFFERENT THAN THE ORIGINALS?
Clear asked regarding post resurrection people : “Will God change the moral and personality characteristics of this new person he creates? For example, one assumes the prior mortal person had personality defects and moral imperfections such as telling lies or bragging or pride, that would cause problems and disrupt the harmony of a socially perfect heaven etc. Will God remove imperfections and change the personality of this new person that the new person is able to interact with others without imperfections so that heaven can remain perfectly harmonious and joyful?” (post #103)
Deeje answered “We don't believe in a post resurrection "heaven" except for the "elect" or "chosen ones" who will share with Christ in ruling this earth. We believe that the majority of humans will be resurrected as they were meant to be, as mortals living forever on a cleansed earth.” (POST #117)


OK, You have divided the post resurrection “re-created” being into two groups. Those who remain on earth and those who share rule with Christ.

This still doesn’t tell me regarding the “elect” or “chosen” ones in a “heaven” who are entitled to “rule” with Christ.

My question regarding those who go to this “heaven” and “rule” with Christ. In J.W. interpretation : “Will God remove imperfections and change the personality of this new person that the new person is able to interact with others without imperfections so that heaven can remain perfectly harmonious and joyful?” (Clear in post #103)


Regarding those who are resurrected and do not go to “heaven” to “rule” but are “re-creations” of their prior selves, do they retain the same imperfections of character and personality that they had before they died? That is, are the liars still given the prior personality which were prone to lie? Are those who were proud of themselves, given the prior personality which was proud and arrogant? Regarding those who were oppressive and sought position over others, are they given the same prior personality that had the tendency to be oppressive and seek pre-eminence over others? Etc, etc. OR, will their personalities and characteristics be modified to make them more fit to live in harmony without lies, oppression, anger, war, etc.

Thank you for your diligence in answering these questions regarding Jehovahs Witness theory and interpretation Deeje

Clear
ειεισισιω

 

[Deeje]

The 144,000 of Revelations refers to 12,000 from each tribe of Israel.

Which Israel? The one in the Hebrew scriptures or the one mentioned by Paul that was a mixture of both Jewish and Gentile Christians? (Galatians 6:16) Those mentioned in Revelation are not fleshly Israel. That nation was 'abandoned' when they orchestrated the murder of their own Messiah. (Matthew 23:37-39) As Jesus said...it was nothing new for them....instead of listening to God's prophets, they silenced them.

It's purely symbolic - like everything else in Revelation. Speaks elsewhere
of the ten thousand times ten thousand around the throne - but that's
symbolic too.

And you know this...how? Direct line to the throne of God perhaps...?
Do you doubt that there are tens of millions of angels serving their Creator? If so, why? Is there something in the scriptures that would limit their number.....can you provide it?

What the JW's do is define a belief and then find supporting text to back
this up, and ignore texts which don't back this up.

Funny, that is exactly what Christendom does.....are you going to pick on them too, or only us?
I would like to examine your beliefs as closely as you seem to want to examine ours. Can I have a website or something to check them out? I'd like to compare them with the scriptures too.

Can you back your own beliefs up scripturally? You don't seem to use the Bible much for someone who is apparently an expert on its interpretation....? or at least what it doesn't mean.

Let's hope there will soon be "New Light" from the Governing Body on this issue. We are
starting to see changes with Armageddon dates, blood transfusions and
the like. And best of all, let's see an end to Shunning.

LOL...new light as previously explained is just clarification on things we already believe....new details, not new beliefs.
We have Jesus' prophesy in Matthew 24 and we see all the signs since 1914, the year that we believe the "last days" began....the Bible doesn't tell us exactly when they will end, but we see the signs still continuing, including the "preaching of God's Kingdom in all the inhabited earth". (Matthew 24:14)
The end will come, but just not when we think its obvious, according to Jesus. (Matthew 24:42-45) We are ready, whenever that happens to be.

Disfellowshipping is entirely scriptural and those who do not practice it are being neglectful of the Bible's recommendations. It is not hateful, but loving.

1Corinthians 5:9-13...
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

What do you see there? Any room for those among the brotherhood to be breaking God's laws? It specifically mentions someone who is a member of the Christian congregation.

Who does it say judges those "inside" the congregation? (Hebrews 13:17) Who then judges those "outside"?

In the churches of Christendom, the pastors rely on the congregation to furnish their income. If they were to expel immoral people, they would be too afraid of losing their livelihood, so they stay silent allowing lawbreakers to stay as members in good standing in their congregations. Who them becomes responsible for a 'little leaven fermenting the whole lump'? The shepherds have to do their job (difficult though it is) or they will be held accountable.

The one so disciplined has an opportunity to repent and to be accepted back among the flock....but if they are not disciplined, then they become hardened to their sin and so does everyone else in the congregation.....you are dead wrong about this.....this is tough love, rather than indulging a spoiled child. (Hebrews 12:5-6, 11)
The shunning (or disfellowshipping as we call it) has its desired result (like the prodigal son)...the humble ones return...the proud never come back. And quite frankly, we don't miss them.