Can a JW please answer this one question, pretty please?

[PruePhillip]

Which Israel? The one in the Hebrew scriptures or the one mentioned by Paul that was a mixture of both Jewish and Gentile Christians? (Galatians 6:16) Those mentioned in Revelation are not fleshly Israel. That nation was 'abandoned' when they orchestrated the murder of their own Messiah. (Matthew 23:37-39) As Jesus said...it was nothing new for them....instead of listening to God's prophets, they silenced them.

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

This is symbolic language. It has meanings outside of 12k per Israeli tribe.
I could guess or suppose its meaning but there could be many alternatives
that I could up with myself.
Same with the ten thousand times ten thousand. That's what,a hundred million
"angels" (recall Jesus saying those counted worthy are as angels before God.)

But... not for a minute would I believe 144k go to heaven and the rest of the saved
live on a perfect earth. That's cherry picking writ large.

 

[PruePhillip]

.

My spouse asked me about JW doctrine this morning. I used birthdays as an example.
Went like this.
Pagans celebrate birthdays, like everyone else on the planet.
The bible warns about pagans and their practices.
Therefore we need to shun birthdays.

There's non sequitur at work here. Pagans get married too but we employ different
logic. I think birthdays and blood transfusions, for example, were done for the purpose
of differentiation. I worked in marketing - you must make your produce different. That's
where the "torture stake" comes from.

 

[Deeje]

Post #117 Deeje claimed : “Immortality means that life is indestructible.” (post #117)
This is incorrect. Immortality simply means one is not mortal. The resulting dictionary meaning is “the ability to live forever” (i.e. an unending living existence), NOT that God (or someone else) could not destroy that person.. Adam, initially, HAD the ability to live forever in most Judeo-Christian traditions. Do the J.Witnesses think Adam initially did NOT have the ability to live forever?

Perhaps this will help....

"▪ What is the difference between immortality and everlasting life?

Endless life will be enjoyed both by anointed ones receiving spirit life in heaven and by humans whom God declares righteous for life on the Paradise earth. So if you think about the outcome, immortality in heaven and everlasting life on earth result in basically the same thing—living forever. There are, though, some comments about immortality that can be made.

The Greek word translated “immortality” (athanasia) is formed from the negative a and from thanatos, meaning “death.” Immortality thus has the basic sense of ‘without death,’ or deathlessness. Understandably, Jehovah is the absolute source of all life and is immortal. (Psalm 36:9; 90:1, 2) This is confirmed by the fact that his glorified Son, who now “is the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being,” is described as “the King of those [men] who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality.” (Hebrews 1:3; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16) No creature can take Jesus’ life as an immortal, which makes him different from humans or spirits that can die. Further, we read: “Now that [Christ] has been raised up from the dead, [he] dies no more; death is master over him no more.”—Romans 6:9.

Though immortality is, in a sense, everlasting life, immortality apparently implies more than that its possessor will live forever. It seems to indicate a particular quality of life, and it is linked with incorruption. The Bible says about spirit-anointed Christians who receive the heavenly reward: “This which is corruptible [in its human body] must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up forever.’”—1 Corinthians 15:53, 54.

Still, the Bible does not provide much detail about the quality of life termed immortality. We do know that mortal humans—even perfect humans having the prospect of endless life on earth—must eat and drink to maintain life, or they die and their bodies experience corruption. (Genesis 2:9, 15, 16) No doubt immortality involves a quality of life that does not need to be sustained like that. Thus it could be said that all who become immortal are not subject to death or that ‘death is master over them no more.’ That would harmonize, too, with their receiving incorruptibility, indicating that their spirit body or organism is inherently beyond decay, ruin or corruption. (Compare 2 Corinthians 5:1; Revelation 20:6.) In these ways a difference might be seen between immortality and everlasting human life.

Jehovah God is the perfect Judge who rewards anointed ones with immortality. When he in his boundless wisdom and insight determines such ones to be completely tested and unquestionably qualified for immortality, we can trust that they will forever be faithful. All whom Jehovah judges worthy of endless life, whether as immortal spirits or as perfect humans, will be able to worship him forever. Thus, in the final analysis, both everlasting human life and immortality in heaven result in endless life.—John 17:3."

Questions From Readers — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Confusing everlasting life and immortality is common among those who cannot discern the scriptural difference. Once you discern the difference there is no confusion at all.

You also did not answer the question I actually asked.
You said a “material” creature cannot be immortal”. However Adam was, initially, BOTH “immortal” AND he was “material”. These are incompatible and conflicting points.

Adam was not immortal otherwise he could not have died. The death that resulted from eating the fruit would never have happened. They could have enjoyed "everlasting life" by remaining obedient and having access to "the tree of life". (Genesis 3:22-24) But they disobeyed and were evicted from their paradise home to "eat bread" rather than the optimum fruit diet that they originally enjoyed with no hard work required. Now they had to eke out an existence on cursed ground, trying to grow enough grain to make that bread. The first murderer was produced within one generation, such was the power of sin.

To justify this conflict, I asked IF J.Ws theorize Adam was NOT immortal (i.e. did not have the ability to live forever) OR if J.Ws Theorize Adam was “immaterial”?

Can you answer this specific question?

Adam was not immortal because he was a material creature and because God told him that if he ate from the forbidden fruit that he would die. Immortals cannot die.I don't know how many ways I can say this....
Those taken to heaven leave their sinful flesh behind and are given spiritual bodies, according to Paul. Only spirit beings can be immortal.

 

[Deeje]

Your answer in post #117 raises as many questions as it answers :

You answered my question regarding Adams ultimate moral education and moral knowledge by saying that “God created man in his image and with his moral qualities…” (Deeje, Post 117)

IF Adam possessed “the Moral Qualities of God” then this raises questions as to why Adam did not act in harmony with Godly knowledge and Godly moral qualities you say he possessed.

If you read the account, you will see that Adam was alone for quite some time observing the animals and giving them appropriate names. He must have wondered why he was the only creature without a mate, so God said that it was "not good for the man to continue by himself...God would make a "helper" for him....someone who would 'compliment' his masculine qualities with feminine ones. Because he had waited so long for her, I imagine that he was besotted by her. And as satan had been a cherub (guardian) in the garden, he would observed this attachment and planned his strategy. He would use the woman to get to the man. Adam was his main target all along but had time to plan and struck whilst the woman was alone. Had he approached Adam directly, I don't think he would have succeeded.

Satan's favorite tactic is "divide and conquer"....he divided Adam's loyalties by making him choose between the love of his God, and the love of his life.

However, You also claimed that “the "knowledge of good and evil" was never given to these first humans” (Deeje, Post 117)

You claimed that that Adam was created "with [Gods'] moral qualities" (which include moral knowledge of Good and Evil) BUT then you claim that “the knowledge of good and evil was never given to these first humans.”

Good and evil exist as natural opposites. God was never going to allow humans to decide which was which. By placing that in his own jurisdiction, he would be the arbiter of what was good and what wasn't. If you think about it, evil would never have entered their thoughts unless they abused their free will and went against God's commands...this is apparently what satan did. James 1:13-15 describes a chain reaction that can lead a person into sin....and suffer its consequences.

"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death."

This would be true of both humans and angels...both free willed. God did not create robots but treated his intelligent creatures as his children. He wants us to obey him out of love and respect, not because we have no option. Fear cancels out love so he didn't want us to fear him either. He wants willing obedience from the heart.

Also, can you give me the reference that explains God undertook to “educate Adam himself”? (I agree that God provided education to Adam, I just want to read your reference.)

Genesis 2:15-24

Regarding those who are resurrected and do not go to “heaven” to “rule” but are “re-creations” of their prior selves, do they retain the same imperfections of character and personality that they had before they died?

My personal opinion on that is based on the scriptures that place all imperfections of character on sin. Someone's personality and character can be shaped by things beyond their control. I have seen some in my brotherhood who were former criminals and even murderers, who came to a fork in the road of their lives and 'chose the road less traveled'. They are now forgiven thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, and are serving God as one of his own. Even if they are on death row to pay for their crimes, the resurrection hope gives them courage to face their death, knowing that their former sins are forgiven.

That change of character comes about through education....but the heart has to be receptive to that education.

Since those who go to heaven will be both rulers AND priests (Revelation 20:6) it stands to reason that sin will not be eliminated right away, otherwise we would not need the services of priests in our lives. Logically, to me, the resurrected ones will likely be raised as physically healthy, but not necessarily returned to their youth or if they are infants, they would not be brought back as adults. A return to human perfection has been allotted to take place during 1,000 years of the Kingdom's rule, by God. That is how long I believe it will take to undo all the damage that satan's rebellion has caused. He will be in a state of complete inactivity for all that time. (Revelation 20:1-3) There will be no one to distract redeemed mankind with ungodliness or wickedness.

That is, are the liars still given the prior personality which was prone to lie? Are those who were proud of themselves, are they given the prior personality which was proud and arrogant? Regarding those who were oppressive and sought position over others, are they given the same prior personality that had the tendency to be oppressive and seek pre-eminence over others? Etc, etc. OR, will their personalities and characteristics be modified to make them more fit to live in harmony without lies, oppression, anger, war, etc.

Jesus said that the 'righteous' will be granted life, whilst the 'unrighteous' will enter a period of judgment. (John 5:28-29) They will be given ample opportunity to change their ways and if they don't, their life will be taken from them. (Isaiah 65:20)

When the end comes, I believe that every single person will be where they have placed themselves. God knows who is a 'sheep' and who is a 'goat'.....we can trust him more than we can trust ourselves on that score.

 

[Deeje]

From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

This is symbolic language. It has meanings outside of 12k per Israeli tribe.
I could guess or suppose its meaning but there could be many alternatives
that I could up with myself.
Same with the ten thousand times ten thousand. That's what,a hundred million
"angels" (recall Jesus saying those counted worthy are as angels before God.)

But... not for a minute would I believe 144k go to heaven and the rest of the saved
live on a perfect earth. That's cherry picking writ large.

How much of your own beliefs are based on assumptions...seriously..?

That is how I know I have the truth because I have no desire whatsoever to go to heaven....its one of the main reasons why I was impressed with the beliefs of JW's in the first place. I was raised in Christendom and I saw and heard way more hypocrisy in church than I have ever heard among my brotherhood in 47 years as a Witness. Every funeral I ever went to the person was "in heaven with the Lord" regardless of how rotten they had been in life. I wanted to slap those stupid, mindless ministers and priests who didn't even know half the people they were consigning to heaven...let alone what they were going to do there.

I can't tell you what a relief it was to know that my life would be lived here on earth where God placed humans in the first place. Whether I live or die my destiny will not change.
Life in heaven had to be programmed by holy spirit into the "elect"....a strong desire to go to heaven had to override any natural inclination to live here in paradise conditions on earth, which if you really think about it, is most people's vision of heaven.

There are two distinct groups in Revelation 7. One is numbered the other is not. The first group are pictured on Mt Zion, (Revelation 14:1) which is not the literal mountain in Israel but God's mountain in heaven.

The second unnumbered group is also attributing salvation to God and to the Lamb.....these are identified as those who "come out of the great tribulation" which occurs on earth just before the final act of God's destruction of this ungodly world. (Revelation 7:4, 9-10, 13-14) These are the survivors......those who like Noah, built their 'ark" according to God's instructions...following them to the letter.

Peter wrote...
"For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. 19 And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. 22 He is at God’s right hand, for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him." (1 Peter 3:19-22)

Baptism is the water that caries us safely through the end of this world. Our ark is our relationship with God, a dedication made to God through that baptism.

You will notice too that Jesus is "at God's right hand for he went to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him"
If Jesus was God, can you tell me how that verse makes any sense? How can anything be made subject to one who is already above all things? How does God reward himself?

My spouse asked me about JW doctrine this morning. I used birthdays as an example.
Went like this.
Pagans celebrate birthdays, like everyone else on the planet.
The bible warns about pagans and their practices.
Therefore we need to shun birthdays.

There's non sequitur at work here. Pagans get married too but we employ different
logic. I think birthdays and blood transfusions, for example, were done for the purpose
of differentiation. I worked in marketing - you must make your produce different. That's
where the "torture stake" comes from.

Now this was interesting.....the Bible actually says that practicing spiritism is something "detestable" to God.

The celebration of birthdays has its roots in astrology with the birthdate being used to cast horoscopes. The birthday cake with lit tapers was used to scare away the evil spirits, and the birthday 'wishes" likewise were to secure the child's good luck. Do you see anything Christian about that?

It seems that you base all your assumptions about our beliefs on anti-JW nonsense. We don't just avoid birthdays because they are pagan...but because most pagan rituals and practices are based on spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Please get your facts straight because then you will not be guilty of spreading lies about us.

I have gone into detail about the blood transfusion issue too, but as usual its all fallen on deaf ears. None so blind....and none so deaf apparently. That is your choice of course. I cannot convince you of anything against your will...and neither I should.

If you worked in marketing then you understand what false advertising means.....marketers find ways to make the lies into something the public will swallow....sounds like it may have been the perfect profession for one who likes to play with the truth.

 

[Clear]

Hi @Deeje : As we dig for details, I am finding it a bit harder to get clarity on specific questions.

1) WAS ADAM INITIALLY AN IMMORTAL BEING OR NOT?

Deeje claimed : Though immortality is, in a sense, everlasting life, immortality apparently implies more than that its possessor will live forever. It seems to indicate a particular quality of life…” (post #123)

You have already attempted incorrectly re-defining the word for "immortality" once. This is not a good thing to do since it creates difficult and inaccurate communication.

The word αθανασια does NOT imply QUALITY of life, but rather to the LENGTH of life. It refers to a life which is undying, immortal or everlasting.

Though it is only used in two books in the New Testament, αθανασια occurs in early literature in this sense of unending life and NOT quality. The word itself can be used for unending life as a slave or unending life as a God or unending life as a horse.

In Sirach 51:9 it is used as an appellation for diety “and to the immortal One did I pray for deliverance “και απο αθανατου ρυσεως εδεηθην” (similar to the usage in the Didache 4:8) While early sepulchral uses have the formula “ουδεις αθανατος” meaning “no one is free from death”. Even the pagans used this term. For example Roman Provinces used the formula “ουδις [αθα]νατος ει μη μονον ις θεος αυτος ο παντων γεν[ετη]σ κε πασι παντα μεριζων…” (“no one is immortal except only the one God Himself who is father of all and gives all things to all”.

In such references, it did not refer to quality of life (or "quality of death), but the fact that it’s possessor would not die and those NOT in possession of the quality would die. It could be applied to anything one wanted to indicate was "unending" For example, It was used in the vernacular to apply to she-goats who would presumably live a long time because their health was good (P Strass I. 30.6 of 276 a.d.). It was used for example in BGU IV 1058.25 in the contract of a wet-nurse referring to obligations if the infants did not die. OGIS 383.207 (of I b.c.) has the term applied as “unalterable”. Syll 365.7 (of 1 a.d.) uses the term to indicate “unending Joy”. P. Oxy I, 130.21 uses the term similarly regarding “unceasing hymns” This does not mean the hymns were of good quality, simply that they were "unending" hymns, the term applies to unceasing prayers. Again, when applied to prayers it does not indicate the prayers were of a specific "quality", but merely that they were "unending".

The point is, that the term is only used rarely in the New Testament and many, many times in various other literature, both sacred and profane. In none of them does it indicate “a particular quality of life”. This is a modification you seem to be making to the term to bend it to your theology rather than a meaning the word actually had to the ancients who actually used the term.

Deeje claimed that "material" beings cannot be immortal. I asked simply if Adam, as a material being, was immortal or not. I looked through your responses for a specific answer but did not find a firm answer.

For example, in one sentence, you mention that Adam “was not immortal” which means he did would not live forever but then two sentences later you say “They could have enjoyed "everlasting life" by remaining obedient.” indicating they could have been immortal as material beings. OR, are you saying that Adam was made and would die if he didn't partake of the tree of life? Does jehovah witness theory believe partaking of the tree of life would have made Adam immaterial somehow? This is unclear. One sentence indicates he was NOT immortal, the other sentence indicates they (adam and eve) could have been immortal IF they had not sinned. I am left without a clear answer.

So, using the normal definition for mortality, The question still remains as to whether the Jehovahs Witnesses believed that Adam, upon being created, had the capacity to live forever if no sin had occurred?



2) GOD HAD MORAL QUALITIES THAT WOULD HAVE PREVENTED HIM FROM SINNING. IF ADAM HAD GODS MORAL QUALITIES, THEN WHY DID HE "SIN"?

Deeje said : “God created man in his image and with his moral qualities…” (Deeje, Post 117)
Clear asked : “IF Adam possessed “the Moral Qualities of God” then this raises questions as to why Adam did not act in harmony with Godly knowledge and Godly moral qualities you say he possessed.

You responded with several irrelevant points but You still have not answered THIS specific question with clarity either. Do you have an answer to this very specific question? If Adam HAD “the moral qualities of God”, then why did Adam not act in harmony with the Godly moral qualities you claim he possessed? Can you clarify?




3) REGARDING POST RESURRECTION "RE-CREATION" OF INDIVIDUALS IN JEHOVAHS WITNESS INTERPRETATION. ARE THE "RE-CREATIONS" OF INDIVIDUALS THE SAME OR DIFFERENT THAN THE ORIGINALS?
Clear asked regarding post resurrection people : “Will God change the moral and personality characteristics of this new person he creates? For example, one assumes the prior mortal person had personality defects and moral imperfections such as telling lies or bragging or pride, that would cause problems and disrupt the harmony of a socially perfect heaven etc. Will God remove imperfections and change the personality of this new person that the new person is able to interact with others without imperfections so that heaven can remain perfectly harmonious and joyful?” (post #103)
Deeje responded : “That change of character comes about through education....but the heart has to be receptive to that education.”…. (post #124)

“Jesus said that the 'righteous' will be granted life, whilst the 'unrighteous' will enter a period of judgment. (John 5:28-29) They will be given ample opportunity to change their ways and if they don't, their life will be taken from them.” (post #124)


Does your response mean that Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the “re-created” people who are resurrected WILL have all of their prior moral imperfections (the tendency to lie, their pride, the tendency to oppress and see for power, etc.) placed back into them after they are resurrected (including those who "rule with Christ") ?


Deeje, I appreciate any clear answers you can provide. Thank you.

Clear
ειτωτωδρω

 

[Deeje]

Seriously, this feels more like another inquisition than a discussion.This happened last time I attempted an exchange with you. You seem to display a kind of 'pedanticness' that reminds me of the Pharisees.
It is nit picking for the sake of it. What on earth are you trying to prove?

Deeje claimed that "material" beings cannot be immortal. I asked simply if Adam, as a material being, was immortal or not. I looked through your responses for a specific answer but did not find a firm answer.

For example, in one sentence, you mention that Adam “was not immortal” which means he did would not live forever but then two sentences later you say “They could have enjoyed "everlasting life" by remaining obedient.” indicating they could have been immortal as material beings. OR, are you saying that Adam was made and would die if he didn't partake of the tree of life? Does jehovah witness theory believe think partaking of the tree of life would have made Adam immaterial somehow? This is unclear. One sentence indicates he was NOT immortal, the other sentence indicates they (adam and eve) could have been immortal IF they had not sinned. I am left without a clear answer.

So, using the normal definition for mortality, The question still remains as to whether the Jehovahs Witnesses believed that Adam, upon being created, had the capacity to live forever if no sin had occurred?

The answer is YES. Adam and all his descendants had the opportunity for unending life if they did not sin. But they were mortals....."mortal" doesn't mean that they had to die...only that they could lose their life if they disobeyed. They disobeyed a law which carried the death penalty and they died. Too difficult to understand? If you die, you are not immortal. Is this rocket science?

How many times have I explained the difference between "immortality" and "everlasting life"? Its a subtle but important difference. Adam was a mortal human who was given the ability to live forever because he had access to "the tree of life". God himself explains what the results of eating from this tree would result in.....'living forever' in his sinful state. (Genesis 3:22-24) So when the humans sinned, God barred the way to "the tree of life", meaning that their only means of attaining everlasting life had been taken away from them......with the result that Adam and his wife and all who descended from him would die...hence they are NOT immortal. Since immortals cannot die, Adam was clearly not immortal....nor was any other human.

You responded with several irrelevant points but You still have not answered THIS specific question with clarity either. Do you have an answer to this very specific question? If Adam HAD “the moral qualities of God”, then why did Adam not act in harmony with the Godly moral qualities you claim he possessed? Can you clarify?

I have already explained this several times....his loyalties were divided by the adversary. Satan targeted the woman to get to the man. It had nothing to do with his moral qualities.....he simply chose to die with his wife rather than obey his God and lose her. It was a matter of the heart....satan fired his arrows at Adam's heart and won. He can do the same to us.

Does your response mean that Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the “re-created” people who are resurrected WILL have all of their prior moral imperfections (the tendency to lie, their pride, the tendency to oppress and see for power, etc.) placed back into them after they are resurrected (including those who "rule with Christ") ?

They will be raised as the same people who died. That is all that the Bible tells us about that. Lazarus was raised as the same man who died. (John 11:11-14)

I am done now. This is just ridiculous rehashing for the sake of it.....are you just having fun at my expense?

Not getting baited again. Bye.....

 

[JJ50]

Seriously, this feels more like another inquisition than a discussion.This happened last time I attempted an exchange with you. You seem to display a kind of 'pedanticness' that reminds me of the Pharisees.
It is nit picking for the sake of it. What on earth are you trying to prove?



The answer is YES. Adam and all his descendants had the opportunity for unending life if they did not sin. But they were mortals....."mortal" doesn't mean that they had to die...only that they could lose their life if they disobeyed. They disobeyed a law which carried the death penalty and they died. Too difficult to understand? If you die, you are not immortal. Is this rocket science?

How many times have I explained the difference between "immortality" and "everlasting life"? Its a subtle but important difference. Adam was a mortal human who was given the ability to live forever because he had access to "the tree of life". God himself explains what the results of eating from this tree would result in.....'living forever' in his sinful state. (Genesis 3:22-24) So when the humans sinned, God barred the way to "the tree of life", meaning that their only means of attaining everlasting life had been taken away from them......with the result that Adam and his wife and all who descended from him would die...hence they are NOT immortal. Since immortals cannot die, Adam was clearly not immortal....nor was any other human.



I have already explained this several times....his loyalties were divided by the adversary. Satan targeted the woman to get to the man. It had nothing to do with his moral qualities.....he simply chose to die with his wife rather than obey his God and lose her. It was a matter of the heart....satan fired his arrows at Adam's heart and won. He can do the same to us.



They will be raised as the same people who died. That is all that the Bible tells us about that. Lazarus was raised as the same man who died. (John 11:11-14)

I am done now. This is just ridiculous rehashing for the sake of it.....are you just having fun at my expense?

Not getting baited again. Bye.....

You are stating things, which you believe to be true, NOT a fact. The Bible is NOT evidence, as I have said boringly often.

 

[Deeje]

You are stating things, which you believe to be true, NOT a fact. The Bible is NOT evidence, as I have said boringly often.

And you state things that you believe are true, but these are not facts either....soooo?
You have a point of view...congratulations. Is there some reason to be boring so often?

I get the distinct impression that you don't believe the Bible...?

So don't.

 

[JJ50]

And you state things that you believe are true, but these are not facts either....soooo?
You have a point of view...congratulations. Is there some reason to be boring so often?

I get the distinct impression that you don't believe the Bible...?

So don't.

I will challenge your take on the faith if you state it as factual, and not a mere belief. Much of the Bible isn't credible, imo.

 

[ecco]

The only problem with your attempted apologetics is that Christian scripture is the New Testament and the Old Testament. Marcion lost, remember?

Is Marcion another Roman Catholic? I don't even know what Catholic doctrine is.

If you don't know Marcion is, you don't know much about the history of your New Testament. Perhaps you should have taken a few minutes to look him up.

The OT concerned three aspects
1- commandments (moral behavior, ie love, forgiveness etc..)
2 - ordinances (rituals of the priesthood, the Levites etc..)
3 - judgements (divorce laws, inheritance etc..)

Christianity imposes just one - the Commandments, and they are imposed more harshly.
ie Adultery was an OT sin, Adultery Plus was the NT belief, ie even thinking about it.)

Still wrong. As I said "Christian scripture is the New Testament and the Old Testament". Jesus thought so also.

How did Jesus view the Old Testament?
The list of examples goes on, and the evidence is clear: Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God’s Word, and his attitude toward it was nothing less than total trust. Many people want to accept Jesus, yet they reject a large portion of the Old Testament. Either Jesus knew what he was talking about, or he didn’t. If a person believes in Jesus Christ, he should be consistent and believe that the Old Testament and its accounts are correct.​

 

[ecco]

I think Neanderthals were a sub species of the human animal, which are now thought to be extinct. However, I can think of one world leader who seems to have much in common with them, or maybe that is being very unfair to Neanderthals.

Not a sub-species. A closely related different species.

And yes, you are being very unfair to them.

 

[ecco]

How much of your own beliefs are based on assumptions...seriously..?

How much of your own beliefs are based on assumptions...seriously..?

 

[ecco]

I can't tell you what a relief it was to know that my life would be lived here on earth where God placed humans in the first place.

How long do you think it will be before you go stark raving mad in your eternal stay on earth? 100,000,000,000,000 years? 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years? It doesn't matter. That's still less than .000000000000000000000000000001% of eternity.

 

[PruePhillip]

If you don't know Marcion is, you don't know much about the history of your New Testament. Perhaps you should have taken a few minutes to look him up.

Marcion is not in the New Testament. This is why I don't feel a great sense of urgency to read of him.
Same with Augustine and Luther.
These are men adding their bit to the bible.

 

[PruePhillip]

Still wrong. As I said "Christian scripture is the New Testament and the Old Testament". Jesus thought so also.

How did Jesus view the Old Testament?
The list of examples goes on, and the evidence is clear: Jesus saw the Old Testament as being God’s Word, and his attitude toward it was nothing less than total trust. Many people want to accept Jesus, yet they reject a large portion of the Old Testament. Either Jesus knew what he was talking about, or he didn’t. If a person believes in Jesus Christ, he should be consistent and believe that the Old Testament and its accounts are correct.​

Jesus came to fulfill all the OT, ie being himself the lamb slain and coming to His temple.
But there was no more temple, no more animal sacrifice, no more dietary rules, no more
rituals, no more the priesthood etc.
He contradicted many OT things such as declaring what you eat has no effect upon your
life; that God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands; that He Himself is our great high
priest etc etc etc..
If you look at a religion like Mormonism or Catholicism you see a return to all these things.
But the OT itself spoke of the end of the old covenant (reading Zechariah today and the
breaking of the staff of beauty - representing the covenant the Jews will not abide by.)

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Which Israel? The one in the Hebrew scriptures or the one mentioned by Paul that was a mixture of both Jewish and Gentile Christians? (Galatians 6:16) Those mentioned in Revelation are not fleshly Israel. That nation was 'abandoned' when they orchestrated the murder of their own Messiah. (Matthew 23:37-39) As Jesus said...it was nothing new for them....instead of listening to God's prophets, they silenced them.

I think that you just confirmed the point PruePhillip was making. JWs consider everything in the book of Revelation to be symbolic EXCEPT for the number 144,000. That is absurd.

Funny, that is exactly what Christendom does.....are you going to pick on them too, or only us?
I would like to examine your beliefs as closely as you seem to want to examine ours. Can I have a website or something to check them out? I'd like to compare them with the scriptures too.

Well, JWs do a really good job of picking on every other religion on the face of the earth. Since they feel entitled to badmouth every other religion, they shouldn't get their knickers in a twist when their beliefs are questioned...but they do.

LOL...new light as previously explained is just clarification on things we already believe....new details, not new beliefs.

Not really. New LIght generally doesn't build on old beliefs...it tends to totally trash old beliefs and replace them with something new--generally when the old belief has been proven beyond a doubt to be totally false. Sometimes the "New Light" results in the resurrection of an older, previously trashed "false" belief which then becomes "truth." Very seldom does it consist of new details or clarification. Makes one wonder, as well, why your leaders, who are supposedly guided by Holy Spirit make so many mistakes and need so much (cough, cough) clarification.
.

Disfellowshipping is entirely scriptural and those who do not practice it are being neglectful of the Bible's recommendations. It is not hateful, but loving.

Disfellowshipping as practiced by the JWs runs absolutely counter to what the scriptures describe.

1Corinthians 5:9-13...
"In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

What do you see there? Any room for those among the brotherhood to be breaking God's laws? It specifically mentions someone who is a member of the Christian congregation.

Do you see anything there that mandates that a person be shunned or that a congregation member who decided to have some sort of association with the person removed from the congregation would be punished by being disfellowshipped and shunned themselves? I don't see any mention of anything like that. Care to quote another scripture that validates the manner in which JWs practice disfellowshipping and shunning?

In the churches of Christendom, the pastors rely on the congregation to furnish their income. If they were to expel immoral people, they would be too afraid of losing their livelihood, so they stay silent allowing lawbreakers to stay as members in good standing in their congregations. Who them becomes responsible for a 'little leaven fermenting the whole lump'? The shepherds have to do their job (difficult though it is) or they will be held accountable.

Didn't the JWs at one point roundly criticize the Catholic Church for its "unscriptural" practice of excommunicating members? Why, yes, they did. Amazing!

The one so disciplined has an opportunity to repent and to be accepted back among the flock....but if they are not disciplined, then they become hardened to their sin and so does everyone else in the congregation.....you are dead wrong about this.....this is tough love, rather than indulging a spoiled child. (Hebrews 12:5-6, 11)
The shunning (or disfellowshipping as we call it) has its desired result (like the prodigal son)...the humble ones return...the proud never come back. And quite frankly, we don't miss them.

The prodigal son was never shunned. He left his family behind of his own free will, but was welcomed back immediately when he decided to return. Definitely not the way it's done in JWland.

Many JWs who are disfellowshipped become so distraught and depressed that they commit suicide...frankly, JWs don't miss them. Many JWs who are disfellowshipped really need help and support in order to overcome their problems, but they get nothing. They are thrown out into a world that they have been taught is evil and corrupt and they must handle their issues all alone without help...many simply can't cope...and, quite frankly, JWs don't miss them. Nothing to be proud of, really.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

Now this was interesting.....the Bible actually says that practicing spiritism is something "detestable" to God.

The celebration of birthdays has its roots in astrology with the birthdate being used to cast horoscopes. The birthday cake with lit tapers was used to scare away the evil spirits, and the birthday 'wishes" likewise were to secure the child's good luck. Do you see anything Christian about that?

Let us not forget that wedding flowers were used to confuse the demons, and bridesmaids were utilized in much the same way--to confuse the demons so that they wouldn't steal the bride. Do you see anything Christian about that? JWs, however, don't have a problem with wedding traditions. They just cherry pick which "pagan" practices to condemn and which ones to embrace. Very hypocritical.

And one that I find quite interesting is that JWs have been instructed by their "Holy Spirit guided" leaders that the use of pinatas in celebrations is totally acceptable. Pinatas were often used to contain human sacrificial victims to pagan gods. JWs don't have a problem with that, though.

It seems that you base all your assumptions about our beliefs on anti-JW nonsense. We don't just avoid birthdays because they are pagan...but because most pagan rituals and practices are based on spiritism. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12) Please get your facts straight because then you will not be guilty of spreading lies about us.

Again...spiritism is not really the issue, is it? If you examine a good number of formerly pagan practices that JWs embrace as being perfectly fine, you'll see that spiritism played as much a part in those as it did with regard to birthdays, and they even embrace practices that were originally connected to human sacrificial rites or feasts to pagan gods. And then, of course, there are the "forbidden" celebrations like Mother's and Father's day that have absolutely nothing to do with either paganism or spiritism.

It's all rather arbitrary and dependent on whether or not their GB members have decided that certain pagan practices and traditions are no longer "pagan" and which ones remain pagan. It's all the opinions of men, but JWs don't ever question it...they just smile and swallow.

 

[JJ50]

Let us not forget that wedding flowers were used to confuse the demons, and bridesmaids were utilized in much the same way--to confuse the demons so that they wouldn't steal the bride. Do you see anything Christian about that? JWs, however, don't have a problem with wedding traditions. They just cherry pick which "pagan" practices to condemn and which ones to embrace. Very hypocritical.

And one that I find quite interesting is that JWs have been instructed by their "Holy Spirit guided" leaders that the use of pinatas in celebrations is totally acceptable. Pinatas were often used to contain human sacrificial victims to pagan gods. JWs don't have a problem with that, though.



Again...spiritism is not really the issue, is it? If you examine a good number of formerly pagan practices that JWs embrace as being perfectly fine, you'll see that spiritism played as much a part in those as it did with regard to birthdays, and they even embrace practices that were originally connected to human sacrificial rites or feasts to pagan gods. And then, of course, there are the "forbidden" celebrations like Mother's and Father's day that have absolutely nothing to do with either paganism or spiritism.

It's all rather arbitrary and dependent on whether or not their GB members have decided that certain pagan practices and traditions are no longer "pagan" and which ones remain pagan. It's all the opinions of men, but JWs don't ever question it...they just smile and swallow.

The more extreme Christians doctrines contain superstitious claptrap. For instance, the Catholics are given hail mary's to chant when they have been naughty. Some believe mythical demons exist and set about exorcising them, which can have damaging consequences if practised on children and the vulnerable.

 

[Clear]

@RedhorseWoman

If I understand correctly, you were a Jehovahs Witness in the past. Is this correct? IF so, THEN perhaps you can clarify for me.

Regarding Adam and his initial Characteristics I THINK that Deeje is saying that in Jehovahs Witness interpretation :

1) Adams initial body was mortal. That is, the body God created for Adam would have died if no change was made to it. Is this correct?
2) If Adam had "been obedient", God had planned to Give the mortal Adam fruit of the tree of life to make him both immaterial and immortal. Is this correct.?
3) God created Adam from nothing, and therefore God also created the intelligence and moral characteristics Adam possessed. Is this correct?

Thank you in advance for any insight into these very specific questions.

Clear
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