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Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

outhouse

Atheistically
Many scientists reject evolution as a viable explanation for life's diversity, and not all who believe in evolution are scientists. And there is evidence for the moon. Not so for macro-evolution. It is pseudo-science, IMO.


This is not true.

There are not many, there are a very slight few who are biased due too their theistic apologetic views.


And because there are some that do not accept the facts, DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACTS

EVOLUTION IS FACT NOW.
 

greentwiga

Active Member
:biglaugh:

Sorry but that was funny..!!!

Actually, there is a point there. When I go out and tan, there is change. There is not evolution. My genes are only expressing themselves differently. Any change in expression of genes is not evolution.

A second point is the ratio of genes in a population. Look at Darwin's finches. During a drought, the number of large billed finches increased. When the rains came abundantly, the percent of small billed finches increased dramatically. No new genes were created. The population maintained both variations to survive both situations. Change occurred, but no new genes evolved.

A gray area is the timing of the expression of genes. We have a similar set of leg bones to horses and cats. The main difference is the timing of the expression to determine how long each being grows those bones. Changes in expression don't create new genes, but does make new looking critters. When this is a change with no new genes, can be called evolution? Since this is an easily reversible change, there is an argument that this is not true evolution. If you want to argue it is, I can see your point also.

The traditional picture of evolution is when new genes are created. Look at the evolution of feathers. They came from scales, and some has to do with changes in expression. Most, though has to do with new genes that non-feathered dinosaurs didn't have. Here is change clearly associated with evolution.

Thus, not all change is synonymous with evolution.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
greentwiga said:
Dirty Penguin said:
Sorry but that was funny..!!!
Actually, there is a point there. When I go out and tan, there is change. There is not evolution. My genes are only expressing themselves differently. Any change in expression of genes is not evolution.
Ah . . . . I think your confusing the class and subclass here.

Just as not all fruits are apples, but all apples are fruits; not all change involves evolution, but all evolution does involve change.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Many scientists reject evolution as a viable explanation for life's diversity, and not all who believe in evolution are scientists. And there is evidence for the moon. Not so for macro-evolution. It is pseudo-science, IMO.

The vast majority of scientists accept the basics of the ToE, and I am a scientist, btw. Let me recommend "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins, who's a research biologist, and he takes the reader through the evidence step by step in a way that's not too technical for the average Joe.

The trouble is you are not at all likely to do that because you really don't want to know the truth because it can upset your paradigm. I know as I was there myself as I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that strongly talked against believing in evolution. I even had plans to go into the ministry.

When I finally realized that I was not being told the truth, I actually left the church and went on to get degrees in anthropology, and then taught the subject for roughly 30 years. I also taught Christian theology for 14 years and comparative religions for 2 years.

What you are being told simply is not the truth, so please for your sake spend some time actually researching it out, and Dawkins' book is a good start.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The vast majority of scientists accept the basics of the ToE, and I am a scientist, btw. Let me recommend "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Richard Dawkins, who's a research biologist, and he takes the reader through the evidence step by step in a way that's not too technical for the average Joe.

The trouble is you are not at all likely to do that because you really don't want to know the truth because it can upset your paradigm. I know as I was there myself as I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that strongly talked against believing in evolution. I even had plans to go into the ministry.

When I finally realized that I was not being told the truth, I actually left the church and went on to get degrees in anthropology, and then taught the subject for roughly 30 years. I also taught Christian theology for 14 years and comparative religions for 2 years.

What you are being told simply is not the truth, so please for your sake spend some time actually researching it out, and Dawkins' book is a good start.

What made you think you had not been told the truth? I appreciate your concern, and I have researched the question of evolution versus creation, and find the evidence for creation compelling. As to Richard Dawkins, I am familiar with him and his rabid anti-God bias. Just one quote example from Dawkins:"It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).” Uh, thanks but no thanks.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
I also recommend Prothero's book about the fossil record. It's kind of heavy at times because there are so many details, but that's the good part about it too.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
What made you think you had not been told the truth? I appreciate your concern, and I have researched the question of evolution versus creation, and find the evidence for creation compelling. As to Richard Dawkins, I am familiar with him and his rabid anti-God bias. Just one quote example from Dawkins:"It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).” Uh, thanks but no thanks.

Dawkins does tend to speak his mind, and I do believe he sometimes overstates his case. However, that should not be an excuse to consider not reading "The Greatest Show on Earth".

As far as "evidence for creation", there is not one single shred of such. Were you there at "creation" whereas you can tell us exactly what happened? Since I assume the answer is no, then you simply cannot make such a claim, and most Christian theologians will tell you that one believes because of faith, not evidence.

Also, being hung up on literalistic interpretation of the Genesis account of "creation" makes so little sense in light of what we now know, and most Christian theologians disagree with you on this. In Judaism, the vast majority of Jews recognize the creation accounts as allegory, and some of our sages hypothesized as such long before we knew anything about evolution.

The mistake so many fundamentalist Protestants make is to try and treat the Bible as a science book, which it most certainly isn't. Symbolism is used throughout the scriptures, so to assume that only a literalistic approach should be used doesn't make one iota of sense either, and even the early church recognized this as being commonplace within the Jewish scriptures. Even the "N.T." authors also used symbolism, such as with Revelations" and also the use of parallel teachings ("parables") that Jesus used.

To your first question, I knew I wasn't being told the truth when I began to seriously look at the evidence at the Smithsonian Museum in D.C. and the Natural Science Museum at the University of Michigan when I was still in high school. I still continued to go to that church until taking biology classes during my undergraduate work whereas my suspicions were verified.

Shortly after my wife and I got married, I left the church because of that position plus the problem with racism in the church. I went to my wife's church after a while, which was and is Catholic, and the RCC has no trouble with accepting evolution as long as it's understood that God was behind it all. Much later, I left that church to where I now go, but my leaving had nothing to do whatsoever with the issue of evolution.

You are not being told the truth about evolution, and since that really is the case, it begs the question what other falsehoods are you being told to believe in? I have no clue where you go to church, but maybe you should seriously consider going somewhere whereas you not being fed non-truths because if they're not telling you the truth in one area, it's likely you're not being told the truth in maybe some others.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I also recommend Prothero's book about the fossil record. It's kind of heavy at times because there are so many details, but that's the good part about it too.

I have not read that one, so thanks for posting that. On to Amazon.com :run:
 

outhouse

Atheistically
. Just one quote example from Dawkins:"It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I'd rather not consider that).” .


I find it to be 100% correct

Wilfully ignorant more then likely covers 99% of people who unsubstantiatedly denounce evolution.

Evolution is now FACT. Sorry you cannot accept these facts, but that doesnt change the reality of these facts in any way shape or form
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I find it to be 100% correct

Wilfully ignorant more then likely covers 99% of people who unsubstantiatedly denounce evolution.

Evolution is now FACT. Sorry you cannot accept these facts, but that doesnt change the reality of these facts in any way shape or form

I believe in evolution....that's a fact.
I believe in God...that's a fact.
I believe in Spirit...that's a fact.

I believe someone had to be first....a line of regression points that way.
Adam was real.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Dawkins does tend to speak his mind, and I do believe he sometimes overstates his case. However, that should not be an excuse to consider not reading "The Greatest Show on Earth".

As far as "evidence for creation", there is not one single shred of such. Were you there at "creation" whereas you can tell us exactly what happened? Since I assume the answer is no, then you simply cannot make such a claim, and most Christian theologians will tell you that one believes because of faith, not evidence.

Also, being hung up on literalistic interpretation of the Genesis account of "creation" makes so little sense in light of what we now know, and most Christian theologians disagree with you on this. In Judaism, the vast majority of Jews recognize the creation accounts as allegory, and some of our sages hypothesized as such long before we knew anything about evolution.

The mistake so many fundamentalist Protestants make is to try and treat the Bible as a science book, which it most certainly isn't. Symbolism is used throughout the scriptures, so to assume that only a literalistic approach should be used doesn't make one iota of sense either, and even the early church recognized this as being commonplace within the Jewish scriptures. Even the "N.T." authors also used symbolism, such as with Revelations" and also the use of parallel teachings ("parables") that Jesus used.

To your first question, I knew I wasn't being told the truth when I began to seriously look at the evidence at the Smithsonian Museum in D.C. and the Natural Science Museum at the University of Michigan when I was still in high school. I still continued to go to that church until taking biology classes during my undergraduate work whereas my suspicions were verified.

Shortly after my wife and I got married, I left the church because of that position plus the problem with racism in the church. I went to my wife's church after a while, which was and is Catholic, and the RCC has no trouble with accepting evolution as long as it's understood that God was behind it all. Much later, I left that church to where I now go, but my leaving had nothing to do whatsoever with the issue of evolution.

You are not being told the truth about evolution, and since that really is the case, it begs the question what other falsehoods are you being told to believe in? I have no clue where you go to church, but maybe you should seriously consider going somewhere whereas you not being fed non-truths because if they're not telling you the truth in one area, it's likely you're not being told the truth in maybe some others.

Your arguments are unconvincing, at least to me. Of course, no one alive on earth was present when creation occurred. Nor when supposed evolution occurred. Unlike your definition of faith, the Bible's definition states that faith is the "evident demonstration", "evidence", "convincing evidence" that God and his Word are true. (Hebrews 11:1) what evidence? The Bible puts it succinctly and profoundly at Hebrews 3:4 and Romans 1:20. The fact that Dawkins and many other evolutionists try to bully or ridicule those who dare question their theory does not convince me I should be thus bullied. The popular course is seldom the correct one. The churches have long ago abandoned Bible truth, IMO, and are certainly not guides to be trusted. (Matthew 15:14)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Your arguments are unconvincing, at least to me. Of course, no one alive on earth was present when creation occurred.

If you will, please be specific as to which evidence convinces you that the basic concept of evolution (i.e. genetic changes over time whereas new species may emerge) cannot be true?

Nor when supposed evolution occurred.

Evolution is continuous, even if there was no life left anywhere in our universe. Everything changes over time it seems.


Unlike your definition of faith, the Bible's definition states that faith is the "evident demonstration", "evidence", "convincing evidence" that God and his Word are true. (Hebrews 11:1) what evidence? The Bible puts it succinctly and profoundly at Hebrews 3:4 and Romans 1:20.

You can quote scripture until it's coming out of your pores but scripture does not provide scientific evidence, and the fact of the matter is that since none of us were here at the BB to witness it, there is absolutely no way logically to supposedly know God created all? What other evidence is there, especially since there are other possibilities?

The fact that Dawkins and many other evolutionists try to bully or ridicule those who dare question their theory does not convince me I should be thus bullied. The popular course is seldom the correct one.

No one is trying to "bully" you as far as I can tell, including Dawkins. Matter of fact, it's usually the other way around whereas people of different faiths or non-faiths have to put up with being "bullied" by partisan theists who continuously want to ramrod their agenda even into law. So, please don't confuse stating one's opinion with being "bullied"-- it ain't the same.


The churches have long ago abandoned Bible truth, IMO, and are certainly not guides to be trusted. (Matthew 15:14)

If you are not willing to accept the basic concept that everything changes over time, then you are not accepting what appears to be the "truth". If you are using your literal interpretation of the creation accounts as being the "truth" when literally all of the evidence points in another direction, then you simply are not willing to accept the "truth".

If one truly understands the basic concept of evolution, it in no way contradicts the Bible or the creation accounts. Jesus came to open people's eyes, but some have instead preferred to put blinders on, and this is one area where we see this being manifested. This is why I left the church I grew up in, and the more I know, the more I know I made the right choice.

Anyhow, have yourself a Very Merry Christmas.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I believe in evolution....that's a fact.
I believe in God...that's a fact.
I believe in Spirit...that's a fact.

I believe someone had to be first....a line of regression points that way.
Adam was real.

Then prove Adam has historicity, because at this point, he does not.
 
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Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
Many scientists reject evolution as a viable explanation for life's diversity, and not all who believe in evolution are scientists. And there is evidence for the moon. Not so for macro-evolution. It is pseudo-science, IMO.

95% of the scientific community believes in evolution, only 5% of scientists identify as creationists. That is definitely not a lot. Evolution is definitely not a pseudo science. If macroevolution is "false," perhaps you would like to explain why Blue Whales contain vestigal legs that are of no use to them?
whale-legs.jpg
 

greentwiga

Active Member
So God caused them to eat from it, then got angry at them for eating from it? Shouldn't he be angry at himself then, considering he is the one that caused it?

One clue is the word for evil. The Hebrew is a very specific word. It means something useless because it is broken. It was used in two ways. When a man makes a covenant, such as a business covenant and then broke the terms. The covenent is then useless because it is broken. The other use is usually translated wicked. When a man goes to a prostitute, especially a temple prostitute, the marriage covenant is useless because it is broken. Both have spiritual implications. Especially important is the covenant breaking that involves demon possession. Temple prostitution involved seeking to be inhabited by their Gods, what the Bible calls demon possession.

Consider the advent of Agriculture. Before, people lived in family groups. With the advent of agriculture, people began living in cities, with strangers. They needed to organize themselves in a new way. It was by means of covenants, unnecessary for family groups. For the first time in history, there was covenant breaking. In the Bible, Adam was the first farmer, and Cain made the first city. The event with Eve might even have been a form of Demon possession.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
In the Bible, Adam was the first farmer, and Cain made the first city. The event with Eve might even have been a form of Demon possession.


Yes in the bible, but not in the real world. Agriculture started 13,000 years ago.

Almost 10,000 years before Israelites even existed.


Beer goes back to 11000 years ago, and probably helped slow these people down to adapt to village life.

Addiction is powerful.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Then prove Adam has historicity, because at this point, he does not.


And the only place god and spirit exist factually is in your imagination.

There you go...asking for man made 'proof'...
when the logic should have been sufficient.
 
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