Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[gnostic]

There you go...asking for man made 'proof'...
when the logic should have been sufficient.

No. The best solution is when you have evidences and logic go hand-in-hand.

Logic is very useful, but logic itself is not always sufficient.

When you wrote this:

I believe in evolution....that's a fact.
I believe in God...that's a fact.
I believe in Spirit...that's a fact.

I believe someone had to be first....a line of regression points that way.
Adam was real.

Yes, you believe in God, spirit and Adam, as if they were all real. But they are not facts, thief...they are not even statements in logic. What you have expressed to be facts, is actually expressions of your belief, nothing more, nothing less than that.

Facts involve something like evidences, that could either validate what you believe you know (or what you think you know), or it could refute them.

 

[Thief]

No. The best solution is when you have evidences and logic go hand-in-hand.

Logic is very useful, but logic itself is not always sufficient.

When you wrote this:


Yes, you believe in God, spirit and Adam, as if they were all real. But they are not facts, thief...they are not even statements in logic. What you have expressed to be facts, is actually expressions of your belief, nothing more, nothing less than that.

Facts involve something like evidences, that could either validate what you believe you know (or what you think you know), or it could refute them.

Yeah well.....you know my routine....don't you?
You're not going to impose any 'proving' upon God.
The experiment won't fit in the dish.

 

[gnostic]

Yeah well.....you know my routine....don't you?
You're not going to impose any 'proving' upon God.
The experiment won't fit in the dish.

Then you don't have any fact. What you have, is your belief.

Anyone can have belief.

Some people believe in flying saucers, alien abductions, etc.
Some children believe in Santa Claus fly through the sky in his sledge pulled by flying reindeers.
While others may believe in ghosts or fairies.

There are no evidences to support any of these beliefs.

So how many of these people that believe these things, which you would support as these belief to be real?

Wouldn't you ask them for evidences?

Why should I accept the bible's talking serpent or talking donkey or the virgin birth more than alien abductions, Santa Claus or ghosts?

 

[outhouse]

There you go...asking for man made 'proof'...
when the logic should have been sufficient.

Logic dictates Adam as mythology to be read allegorically.


Your spirit first stuff only has importance to you and you alone, thus you have nothing to bring to a debate less your own personal unsubstantiated faith, And that doesn't amount to much against real evidence of human evolution and the creation of Israelite mythology.

 

[greentwiga]

Yes in the bible, but not in the real world. Agriculture started 13,000 years ago.

Almost 10,000 years before Israelites even existed.


Beer goes back to 11000 years ago, and probably helped slow these people down to adapt to village life.

Addiction is powerful.

Yes, you are close. According to scientists, people were harvesting wheat before the Younger Dryas, about 13,000 years ago. No one was planting wheat (which requires cultivating the ground) until the end the Younger Dryas, about 11,500 years ago. If Adam and the Garden was the story of the first farmer, we should expect the facts to line up. Scientists say wheat was first domesticated just after the worst drought of known history, at a mountain in between the Tigris and Euphrates. The Bible says that Adam was the first to cultivate and mentions a lack of rain. It also states that the location was between the Tigris and Euphrates, at a location where the waters divide and flow into four rivers, therefore, a high point like a mountain. It also mentions figs (leaves), the first known domesticated tree. The only place that wild wheat and wild figs grew in between the Tigris and Euphrates is at Karacadag, the very spot scientists say wheat was domesticated. Two of the other founder crops, lentils and chickpeas were also domesticated there or very close. Sheep also were domesticated at that time and probably close to there.

Google earth shows that the water off the mountain flows into four rivers, the other two follow winding paths. The northern one would have been in the placer gold region below the Taurus/Anti-Taurus mountains. This is east of glorious URfa and Haran, where Abraham was from. This mountain is also a shild volcano, the type most likely to generate a lava fountain. Such a fountain from a distance would look like a flaming sword. A lava flow over Eden would definitely prevent any from returning to Eden. The last eruption is poorly dated, but estimated to be roughly 10,000 years ago.

Another known point is the method of growing figs. A male tree was planted in the center of the grove. The rest were Female trees. One doesn't eat the male figs, partly because they are full of wasp larvae and partly because the wasps are needed to fertilize the female figs. Without a male tree and the wasps, the female trees remain "lifeless" that is without figs. The story of the tree in the center seems to be using the known image (parable?) of the fig grove to teach a spiritual lesson.

Also the first towns arose very shortly after this point. Think of Cain building a town.

Yes, the Story of Adam and Eve fits perfectly with know history. I also don't have a problem with evolution having occurred. If it did, then the first Human of Gen 1 lived in Africa. and many Generations later (Gen 2:4), Adam and Eve came along. If there was no evolution then the two chapters talk of the same person.

Yes, a literal Genesis story of the Garden of Eden really holds up.

 

[outhouse]

Yes, a literal Genesis story of the Garden of Eden really holds up.

It is a literal impossibility.


First of all, much of the creation mythology Isarelites used originated in Mesopotamia.

Second, oral trdaition wasnt passed down from civilization to civlization.

There was no conquest either.


Israelites factually evolved from displaced Canaanites and other semetic peoples, why doesnt the bible tell us how Isarelites actaully formed.

It is factual they did not form the way the bible states.

 

[greentwiga]

You sound like a creationist. When presented with facts, you just restate your beliefs.

 

[Thief]

Logic dictates Adam as mythology to be read allegorically.


Your spirit first stuff only has importance to you and you alone, thus you have nothing to bring to a debate less your own personal unsubstantiated faith, And that doesn't amount to much against real evidence of human evolution and the creation of Israelite mythology.

Wrong address....try linear regression.
Someone had to be first.

 

[Thief]

Then you don't have any fact. What you have, is your belief.

Anyone can have belief.

Some people believe in flying saucers, alien abductions, etc.
Some children believe in Santa Claus fly through the sky in his sledge pulled by flying reindeers.
While others may believe in ghosts or fairies.

There are no evidences to support any of these beliefs.

So how many of these people that believe these things, which you would support as these belief to be real?

Wouldn't you ask them for evidences?

Why should I accept the bible's talking serpent or talking donkey or the virgin birth more than alien abductions, Santa Claus or ghosts?

Not so.
Belief is more than nodding your head.

And crippling your thought by limiting your acceptance is just that.....lame.
The 'evidence' is all around you.
You are part of that 'evidence'.

Your shallow denial is noted.

 

[rusra02]

This is not true.

There are not many, there are a very slight few who are biased due too their theistic apologetic views.


And because there are some that do not accept the facts, DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACTS

EVOLUTION IS FACT NOW.

A very slight few? And you know this how? I agree many do not accept the facts, or allow peer pressure to overshadow scientific objectivity.

 

[rusra02]

95% of the scientific community believes in evolution, only 5% of scientists identify as creationists. That is definitely not a lot. Evolution is definitely not a pseudo science. If macroevolution is "false," perhaps you would like to explain why Blue Whales contain vestigal legs that are of no use to them?

So-called vestigial organs are poor evidence indeed. For example, tonsils and appendix were labeled "vestigial" by evolutionists, but they had to backpedal when these organs were found to play a role in the immune system. As to the pelvic bones in whales, these differ between male and female and are thought to play a role in reproduction. In any case, so called "vestigial" body parts, like so-called "junk" DNA, demonstrate man's limited knowledge rather than prove evolution.

 

[Muffled]

So what are your thoughts about the Ugarit tables with references to Yam and Yaw (Yw)? It's becoming more accepted that the Ugarit had influence on the prose in the OT. Also Ugarit talks about El, Elohim, Ba'al, and many other gods, and the struggles and wars they go through. Yaw was the son of El if I understand it right. And they were in Canaan before Israel.

I find it very fascinating that there's a "Legend of Danel." Even if it's not the same Daniel as in the Bible, just that they had the same religious language and naming of characters. (Ugarit Dn'il, "God is the judge," or Hebrew Daniel, "God is my judge." Something like that.)

You do know that these tables aren't fantasized but real tables.

I am supposing that the Ugarit had their own language and language similarities don't mean much. I once met a Chinese person named Hsu pronounced shoe but I doubt it meant shoe in Chinese.

Isn't it nice that they can pat each other on the back like that?

I believe that makes sense because they were Canaanite gods.

I believe that is exactly true.

I believe what is fantasized is the concept that existing Canaanites must have been antecedents of Abraham. That doesn't make sense when one considers that the Canaanite community existed before the Adamic race was created.

 

[Muffled]

Your unsubstantiated opinion means nothing against credible facts and sources.

Your also ignorant about many topics here to the point of embarrassment. Scientist have nothing to do with what I posted. That is the job of scholars and historians, many of which are devoted Christians.

I don't believe supposed credible facts and sources are any more dependable or substantiated than my opinion but I am wiiling to see one try.

I regret your embarrassment but I have no problem with being ignorant and am quite willing to learn provided a person can provide something worth learning.

 

[Muffled]

Really?


Ok so what exact date did the mythical global flood happen? If it really happened, you should have a exact date we can attribute to said flood.

I don't have an exact date and the Biblical timeline is tricky. I put it about 3850BC.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

So-called vestigial organs are poor evidence indeed. For example, tonsils and appendix were labeled "vestigial" by evolutionists, but they had to backpedal when these organs were found to play a role in the immune system. As to the pelvic bones in whales, these differ between male and female and are thought to play a role in reproduction. In any case, so called "vestigial" body parts, like so-called "junk" DNA, demonstrate man's limited knowledge rather than prove evolution.

It's not just a pelvis, it's two femurs as well. These vestigial parts show that intelligent design is not plausible. Why would God create an organ or part which serves absolutely no purpose at all? Better yet, why does this "design" sometimes come with defects such as Down's syndrome, hermaphroditism, people being born with missing body parts, infertility, cancer, etc. If that's "intelligent" design, I don't even want to know what unintelligent design looks like. Is God drunk or something?

 

[outhouse]

I don't have an exact date and the Biblical timeline is tricky. I put it about 3850BC.

Why are there no breaks in any previous civilization during that exact time period in Egypt or Mesopotamia?

Ancient Egyptian Chronology: Dynasties

Lower Paleolithic (c. 2 Million - 100000 BC)
Middle Paleolithic (100000 - 30000 BC)
Upper Paleolithic (30000 - 10000 BC)
Epipaleolithic Era (10000 - c. 5500 BC)
Predynastic Period (5500 - 3100 BC)
1st Dynasty (2920 - 2770 BC)
2nd Dynasty (2770 - 2650 BC)
3rd Dynasty (2650 - 2575 BC)
4th Dynasty (2575 - 2467 BC)
5th Dynasty (2465 - 2323 BC)
6th Dynasty (2323 - 2152 BC)
First Intermediate Period (7th - 11th Dynasties) (2150 -1986 BC)
11th Dynasty (1986 - 1937 BC)
12th Dynasty (1937 - 1759 BC)
Second Intermediate Period (13th - 17th Dynasties) (1759 - 1539 BC)
18th Dynasty (1539 - 1295 BC)
19th Dynasty (1295 - 1186 BC)
20th Dynasty (1186 - 1069 BC)
21st Dynasty (1070 - 945 BC)
22nd Dynasty (945 - 712 BC)
23rd Dynasty (828 - 725 BC)
24th Dynasty (725 - 715 BC)
25th Dynasty (712 - 657 BC)
26th Dynasty (664 - 525 BC)
27th Dynasty (525 - 404 BC)
28th Dynasty (404 - 399 BC)
29th Dynasty (399 - 380 BC)
30th Dynasty (380 - 343 BC)
31st Dynasty (343 - 332 BC)
Ptolemaic Dynasty
Roman Period
Byzantine Period
Abbasid Period
Fatimid Period
Ayyubid Period
Mameluke Period
Bahri Mameluke Period
Burgi Mameluke Period
Ottoman Turk Period
French Occupation Period
British Occupation Period

 

[Ouroboros]

It's not just a pelvis, it's two femurs as well. These vestigial parts show that intelligent design is not plausible. Why would God create an organ or part which serves absolutely no purpose at all? Better yet, why does this "design" sometimes come with defects such as Down's syndrome, hermaphroditism, people being born with missing body parts, infertility, cancer, etc. If that's "intelligent" design, I don't even want to know what unintelligent design looks like. Is God drunk or something?

Agree.

There are literally thousands and thousands of different vestigial parts to us and animals. Many of these "vestigial" parts have taken on a new function. For instance, the malleus and incus in our ears can be seen in the fossil record to have moved from the yaw bone (if I remember right, something like that). The appendix does help store healthy bacteria, and that's why it is selected for naturally to stick around. That's how mutation and selection works. Things change. If the change doesn't affect anything it keeps on changing. But if it helps (evolutionary peak) it wills stick around. Evolutionary peaks unfortunately prevent improvements sometimes, but that's another discussion.

And yes, God is drunk occasionally. Mostly on the weekends.

 

[outhouse]

I don't have an exact date and the Biblical timeline is tricky. I put it about 3850BC.

Anywhere in the world, there is no break in any civilization?

You know why? Because it factually did not happen on the date you provided.


So now what? all of science and education and knoweldge is out to get you?


Is there some conspiracy out to get you?

 

[greentwiga]

The Bible indicates Adam lived about 4000BC. How do you say I'm going by the Bible in saying Adam lived 9,500BC, 11,500 years ago. I am going by science. Heun et al state wheat was domesticated at Karacadag. Various scientists state it was about 9,500BC. A map of the spread of agriculture shows it started right then. I do agree that people harvested wheat, but didn't plant it, before the Younger Dryas, but for the thousand years of extreme drought, everyone returned to hunter gathering, and all the earlier harvesting villages disappeared. You only need harvesting to make beer, but the date you stated for beer is after the date I have stated for Adam.

You also asked for historicity for Adam. I have given you a time and place in history using the best science, where the account of Adam fits perfectly.

 

[outhouse]

The Bible indicates Adam lived about 4000BC. How do you say I'm going by the Bible in saying Adam lived 9,500BC, 11,500 years ago. I am going by science. Heun et al state wheat was domesticated at Karacadag. Various scientists state it was about 9,500BC. A map of the spread of agriculture shows it started right then. I do agree that people harvested wheat, but didn't plant it, before the Younger Dryas, but for the thousand years of extreme drought, everyone returned to hunter gathering, and all the earlier harvesting villages disappeared. You only need harvesting to make beer, but the date you stated for beer is after the date I have stated for Adam.

You also asked for historicity for Adam. I have given you a time and place in history using the best science, where the account of Adam fits perfectly.

Your just perverting scripture to meet your own needs.


I asked you how oral tradition could be passed down from that period? and which civilizations preverved this legend before Israelites even existed.


Why do you igore the facts that Israelites formed from displaced Canaanites after 1200 BC?