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Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

outhouse

Atheistically
You seem to assume that I don't have a concept about science. You also indicate that Finkelstein is the only authority. There are others that disagree with him. Whyh should I accept Finkelstein as the one with the "facts," especially when the facts you refer to are interpretations based on facts.


Finkelstein claims facts. And one of those is that the highlands of Israel was for the most part uninhabited prior to 1200 BC with only a few villages.


After 1200 BC the highland villages increase dramatically over a 200 year period. That is a fact.


That fact does not jive with the biblical Exodus legend.



Its not just the Exodus, there are many places there is just no historicity at all to genesis. The flood has no historicity, either does Jericho. As well as many other comment such as camel ect ect ect
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Its not just the Exodus, there are many places there is just no historicity at all to genesis. The flood has no historicity, either does Jericho. As well as many other comment such as camel ect ect ect
Since we know how many years back the flood was supposed to have happened, I was wondering also about languages. Supposedly, not long after the flood (which was to cleanse the Earth of evil?), we have all people speaking one language? So if we have civilizations with different languages that pre-date when the flood was to have taken place, then that also blows the Bible story's timetable.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Since we know how many years back the flood was supposed to have happened, I was wondering also about languages. Supposedly, not long after the flood (which was to cleanse the Earth of evil?), we have all people speaking one language? So if we have civilizations with different languages that pre-date when the flood was to have taken place, then that also blows the Bible story's timetable.

The list is huge that is proveable mythology.
 

greentwiga

Active Member
I date the fl;ood to 3,000 BC. There was some civilization, but after the flood, many people moved into the area (Shinar or Sumer), inc Semites and Sumerians. Sometime more recent than 3,000 BC, the language situation became complex. With Nimrod/Sargon and others conquering other Countries, the language situation became even worse. Also, it was only more recent that 3,000 BC that the Sumerians began building their towers of mud brick and tar, called ziggurats. With a flood of 3,000 BC, the languages, the towers, and the conquerers all fit our known history.
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
Since we know how many years back the flood was supposed to have happened, I was wondering also about languages. Supposedly, not long after the flood (which was to cleanse the Earth of evil?), we have all people speaking one language? So if we have civilizations with different languages that pre-date when the flood was to have taken place, then that also blows the Bible story's timetable.

I think the Bible timetable has to do with religious man trying to make sense of a spiritual book the Book of Genesis by literalizing it. Religious man can make up all the time theories he wants but it just is not written when it happen precisely as they theorize. I mean the seven days of creation could of tank millions of years, we simple do not know
Actually, the Hebrew word "yowm" in the Genesis creation story is also used to refer to "the process of time" in Genesis 4:3.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, {yowm} and the darkness he called Night.{layil} And the evening {'ereb} and the morning{boqer} were the first day.{yowm} {Notice how the darkness comes before the light when reckoning yowm}

 

outhouse

Atheistically
I date the fl;ood to 3,000 BC. There was some civilization, but after the flood, many people moved into the area (Shinar or Sumer), inc Semites and Sumerians. Sometime more recent than 3,000 BC, the language situation became complex. With Nimrod/Sargon and others conquering other Countries, the language situation became even worse. Also, it was only more recent that 3,000 BC that the Sumerians began building their towers of mud brick and tar, called ziggurats. With a flood of 3,000 BC, the languages, the towers, and the conquerers all fit our known history.

First of all, there was a flood 2900 BC, when the Euphrates overflowed.

It was a river flood and started all of the flood mythology in the levant

The river flood is attested, as well king Ziusudra is also found on the Sumerian kings list.

Just so you know, there were many civilizations around the world at 5000 BC that show no break at all for 1000 years in either direction of your personal date.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I think the Bible timetable has to do with religious man trying to make sense of a spiritual book the Book of Genesis by literalizing it. Religious man can make up all the time theories he wants but it just is not written when it happen precisely as they theorize. I mean the seven days of creation could of tank millions of years, we simple do not know

Actually, the Hebrew word "yowm" in the Genesis creation story is also used to refer to "the process of time" in Genesis 4:3.

Genesis 1:5 And God called the light Day, {yowm} and the darkness he called Night.{layil} And the evening {'ereb} and the morning{boqer} were the first day.{yowm} {Notice how the darkness comes before the light when reckoning yowm}

Really my friend it doesnt matter. Evolution is fact, and creation is not.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
First of all, there was a flood 2900 BC, when the Euphrates overflowed.

It was a river flood and started all of the flood mythology in the levant

The river flood is attested, as well king Ziusudra is also found on the Sumerian kings list.

Just so you know, there were many civilizations around the world at 5000 BC that show no break at all for 1000 years in either direction of your personal date.
All that's needed is one proof that Genesis isn't literal. If a worldwide flood didn't happen when it was supposed to, as "attested" in the Bible, and we have all the years accounted for from Noah on withing the pages of the Bible, then maybe, just maybe, it's myth and legend? Which is fine with me. It's just fundy YEC's that have a problem. Without Genesis being exactly literal truth then there whole belief system crumbles. It's too bad, but they're the ones that created it... that is, they're the ones that took part of the Jewish Scriptures and added their "NT" to it and interpreted the whole thing in their definition of what is literal.
 

greentwiga

Active Member
First of all, there was a flood 2900 BC, when the Euphrates overflowed.

It was a river flood and started all of the flood mythology in the levant

The river flood is attested, as well king Ziusudra is also found on the Sumerian kings list.

Just so you know, there were many civilizations around the world at 5000 BC that show no break at all for 1000 years in either direction of your personal date.

No, there were no other Civilizations in 3,000 BC. Egypt was beginning its transition from mud villages. China would not begin for hundreds of years. All the rest were hunter-gatherers or loose collections of farming villages in the upper Euphrates. The Jemdet Nasr period started in 3050 BC, when civilization in Sumer changed drastically to a simpler level. The flood recorded by Sumer was more likely the start 3050 rather than the end 2900 BC. I am convinced, this is Noah's flood.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
No, there were no other Civilizations in 3,000 BC.


:biglaugh:

That statement is ridiculous.


Cradle of civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The earliest signs of a process leading to sedentary culture can be seen in the Levant to as early as 12,000 BC, when the Natufian culture became sedentary; it evolved into an agricultural society by 10,000 BC


The earliest proto-urban settlements with several thousand inhabitants emerged in the Neolithic. The first cities to house several tens of thousands were Memphis and Uruk, by the 31st century BC (see Historical urban community sizes).


the Near Eastern Chalcolithic, the transitional period between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age during the 4th millennium BC, and the development of proto-writing in Harappa in the Indus Valley of South Asia around 3300 BCE are the earliest incidences, followed by Chinese proto-writing evolving into the oracle bone script, and again by the emergence of Mesoamerican writing systems from about 200 BC.


Single or multiple cradles

Scholars more generally now believe that civilizations arose independently at several locations in both hemispheres

The Columbia Encyclopedia, in its article titled "Civilization," says that the earliest civilizations developed in the following parts of the world: "Mesopotamia, Egypt, China, India, the central Andes, and Mesoamerica."[11] Since the 1990s, scholarship has defined Norte Chico in the coastal area of present-day Peru as another independent site of civilization



By 6000 BC predynastic Egyptians in the southwestern corner of Egypt were herding cattle. Symbols on Gerzean pottery, c.4th millennium BC, resemble traditional hieroglyph writing. In ancient Egypt mortar was in use by 4000 BC, and ancient Egyptians were producing ceramic faience as early as 3500 BC. Medical institutions are known to have been established in Egypt since as early as circa 3000 BC. Ancient Egypt gains credit for the tallest ancient pyramids and early forms of surgery, mathematics, and barge transport.


By 4000 BC, a pre-Harappan culture emerged, with trade networks including lapis lazuli and other raw materials. Urban centers during this phase spanned what is now Pakistan and western India. The Harappan phase is known to have comprised several large cities, including Harappa (3300 BC), Dholavira (2900 BC), Mohenjo-Daro (2500 BC), Lothal (2400 BC), and Rakhigarhi, and more than 1,000 towns and villages, often of relatively small size

Some elements of agriculture seem to have been practiced in Mesoamerica quite early. The domestication of maize is thought to have begun around 7,500 to 12,000 years ago. The earliest record of lowland maize cultivation dates to around 5100 BC


The flood recorded by Sumer was more likely the start 3050 rather than the end 2900 BC. I am convinced, this is Noah's flood.

The Euphrates river flood is attested too 2900 BC

That means it is factual that it happened on that date.

I agree this river flood is what started all the flood myths in the Levant.


Israelites did not exist prior to 1200 BC, and at that time were considered proto Israelites still resembling the Canaanite culture from which they emerged
 

Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
Point taken.
The actual cloning technique is not detailed.

But you then discount the entire event for the lack of that detail?

Man step away from his animal kingdom.
The account of Chapter Two indicates we had Assistance.

Do you really think all of this..... that we are.... was an accident?

I do not know whether or not the universe was created by accident and I don't claim to know. I was not there 13.7 billion years ago and neither were you, so neither of us know for sure. Just because we don't know, does not mean that we should fill in the blanks with dogmatic nonsense.
 
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rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Perhaps you would like to explain where genetic malformities are mentioned in the Bible. I used to be a practicing Pentecostal for 14 years and never once ran across a passage mentioning such things. I do, however, remember a passage saying that humans were all created in God's likeness, so is he deformed and missing limbs too?

Genetic malformations are caused by the sin and imperfection we all inherited from our first parents. (Romans 5:12) Man was created perfect, but rebelled against his Creator, bringing suffering and death into the world. I believe what the Bible says about God's provision to relieve us of sin and death through the ransom sacrifice he sent his son to provide. (Matthew 20:28, Romans 6:23) Thus, soon I believe, "death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore." (Revelation 21:4)
 

Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
Genetic malformations are caused by the sin and imperfection we all inherited from our first parents. (Romans 5:12) Man was created perfect, but rebelled against his Creator, bringing suffering and death into the world. I believe what the Bible says about God's provision to relieve us of sin and death through the ransom sacrifice he sent his son to provide. (Matthew 20:28, Romans 6:23) Thus, soon I believe, "death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore." (Revelation 21:4)

So God punished us personally because of something our ancestors supposedly did 6000 years ago. That in itself tells a lot about the Judeo-Christian god. That's like spanking a child because his great grandfather said a bad word 100 years ago. Why that is considered a fair god by Christians is absolutely beyond me.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Genetic malformations are caused by the sin and imperfection we all inherited from our first parents. (Romans 5:12) Man was created perfect, but rebelled against his Creator, bringing suffering and death into the world. I believe what the Bible says about God's provision to relieve us of sin and death through the ransom sacrifice he sent his son to provide. (Matthew 20:28, Romans 6:23) Thus, soon I believe, "death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore." (Revelation 21:4)

You realize that animals will show signs of like genetic malformations as well? Who did they inherit it from?

How do you explain parasites? You know those things that live off of another or uses the creature to reproduce? What sin did the first insect/arthropod commit that would warrant it to death by cordcyeps?

How do you explain genetic malformations like sickle cell which arose due to pressures from mosquitos that transmit the parasitic malaria?

How do you explain bones of animals found that are several million years old but show signs of biting, tearing, and infection?
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Genetic malformations are caused by the sin and imperfection we all inherited from our first parents. )


Nonsense, provide credible sources that are not apologetic in origin.


That means show scientific evidence that some deity causes anything in nature.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Genetic malformations are caused by the sin and imperfection we all inherited from our first parents. (Romans 5:12) Man was created perfect, but rebelled against his Creator, bringing suffering and death into the world. I believe what the Bible says about God's provision to relieve us of sin and death through the ransom sacrifice he sent his son to provide. (Matthew 20:28, Romans 6:23) Thus, soon I believe, "death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore." (Revelation 21:4)

Since genetic malformations also occur with other animals and plants, do they sin too?
 

Triumphant_Loser

Libertarian Egalitarian
Since genetic malformations also occur with other animals and plants, do they sin too?

I saw a male monkey touching another male monkey's private parts at the zoo one time. How dare they engage in such unnatural affections! I bet there is a special place in "monkey-hell" for those heathenous fornicating monkeys! :D
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I saw a male monkey touching another male monkey's private parts at the zoo one time. How dare they engage in such unnatural affections! I bet there is a special place in "monkey-hell" for those heathenous fornicating monkeys! :D

I remember much the same when I took our young daughters to the zoo many moons ago. They can be a real embarrassment-- or enlightenment. Their general behavior and ours is remarkably similar, and comparing human and chimp behavior is even more so.
 

greentwiga

Active Member
I looked at the U. Chicago website. They state that ""the world's first cities arose in Mesopotamia around 4,500-3,000 BC." Yes, there were previous cultural conglomerates of villages especially in Northern Mesopotamia but nothing like the first cities like Ur and Urech, Eridu and Kish. This is what I am talking about. No other place had cities like Sumer until after 3,000 BC. they just had cultural conglomerates.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
I looked at the U. Chicago website. They state that ""the world's first cities arose in Mesopotamia around 4,500-3,000 BC." Yes, there were previous cultural conglomerates of villages especially in Northern Mesopotamia but nothing like the first cities like Ur and Urech, Eridu and Kish. This is what I am talking about. No other place had cities like Sumer until after 3,000 BC. they just had cultural conglomerates.

While that may be somewhat true, it just shows you that there was no global flood that took out these civilizations.

People lived all over the world 5000 years ago, with the same exact cultural diversity seem today.

And all of these previous civilizations all have one thing in common, not one shows a break from a global deluge.
 
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