Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[Ouroboros]

I saw a male monkey touching another male monkey's private parts at the zoo one time. How dare they engage in such unnatural affections! I bet there is a special place in "monkey-hell" for those heathenous fornicating monkeys!

It's like the bonobos. They love to resolve conflicts with sex.

I had to sit and study them for a few hours for one of my anthro classes, and their biggest hobby was (probably they were bored out of their minds) to stick their fingers in their throat and puke up food, and then... well... back again. In and out food. LOL!

 

[Skwim]

So God punished us personally because of something our ancestors supposedly did 6000 years ago. That in itself tells a lot about the Judeo-Christian god. That's like spanking a child because his great grandfather said a bad word 100 years ago. Why that is considered a fair god by Christians is absolutely beyond me.

It's because god knows best, and god's knowledge is not to be questioned.

 

[greentwiga]

While that may be somewhat true, it just shows you that there was no global flood that took out these civilizations.

People lived all over the world 5000 years ago, with the same exact cultural diversity seem today.

And all of these previous civilizations all have one thing in common, not one shows a break from a global deluge.

My analysis of the Bible shows a regional flood. I believe the cultural reset of the Jemdet Nasr period is the result of the flood.

 

[outhouse]

My analysis of the Bible shows a regional flood. I believe the cultural reset of the Jemdet Nasr period is the result of the flood.

Correct, it was regional and most have pin pointed to the attested flood of 2900BC.


Sumerians even have it recorded as a 6 day thunderstorm that overwhelemed the banks of the Euphrates.

We dont know exactly what culture had to rebuild or if any changes were present.

We do know it had absolutely nothing to do with Israelite culture who did not even exist until after 1200 BC.


We do know that much of the OT was influenced by Mesopotamian cultures after their return from the Babylonian exile, as the government overseeing Israelites wanted unity which may have played in some part, the mythology we see.

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

It's because god knows best, and god's knowledge is not to be questioned.

We've already went through the "don't question God" phase... It was called the dark ages, which is the reason why we aren't exploring the galaxy by now.

 

[greentwiga]

Correct, it was regional and most have pin pointed to the attested flood of 2900BC.


Sumerians even have it recorded as a 6 day thunderstorm that overwhelemed the banks of the Euphrates.

We dont know exactly what culture had to rebuild or if any changes were present.

We do know it had absolutely nothing to do with Israelite culture who did not even exist until after 1200 BC.


We do know that much of the OT was influenced by Mesopotamian cultures after their return from the Babylonian exile, as the government overseeing Israelites wanted unity which may have played in some part, the mythology we see.

Let's keep to the topic.

The Jemdet Nasr Period started in 3050 BC and ended in 2900 BC. Previous to 3050, the artifacts such as clay pottery were complex and signs of a developed culture. Suddenly, only simple artifacts appear. Finally in 2900 BC, news kinds of complex artifacts appear. This points to 3050 BC rather than 2900.

Though we agree that the Israelite culture didn't arise for well over a thousand years, they did have ancestors. The argument is really if Noah was history or myth. Remember myth that was created thousands of years later has many cultural inaccuracies. The fewer inaccuracies, the closer to the event that the myth arose. On with no inaccuracies argues for history or at a minimum, creation within a few decades of the event.

 

[metis]

Flood stories are a dime a dozen cross-culturally whereas an estimated 60% of all societies had them as part of their religion, and the vast majority were in areas whereas flooding was pretty much commonplace. The flood account in Genesis appears to have not been about the local flooding in eretz Israel but almost undoubtedly about the flooding further east in the Tigris/Euphratise region as they had a flood narrative that long predated the writing of Genesis.

 

[Avi1001]

Flood stories are a dime a dozen cross-culturally whereas an estimated 60% of all societies had them as part of their religion, and the vast majority were in areas whereas flooding was pretty much commonplace. The flood account in Genesis appears to have not been about the local flooding in eretz Israel but almost undoubtedly about the flooding further east in the Tigris/Euphratise region as they had a flood narrative that long predated the writing of Genesis.

What about Turkey ?

 

[outhouse]

The Jemdet Nasr Period started in 3050 BC and ended in 2900 BC. Previous to 3050, the artifacts such as clay pottery were complex and signs of a developed culture. Suddenly, only simple artifacts appear. Finally in 2900 BC, news kinds of complex artifacts appear. This points to 3050 BC rather than 2900.

.

Nonsense

Jemdet Nasr period - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3100–2900 BCE

The centralized buildings, administrative cuneiform tablets and cylinder seals from sites like Jemdet Nasr suggest that settlements of this period were very organized, with a central administration regulating all aspects of the economy, from crafts to agriculture to the rationing of foodstuffs.


The point is there was no break during this period.

Nopw ask yourself, why does it end at 2900 BC??????????????????????

 

[outhouse]

. The argument is really if Noah was history or myth. Remember myth that was created thousands of years later has many cultural inaccuracies. The fewer inaccuracies, the closer to the event that the myth arose. On with no inaccuracies argues for history or at a minimum, creation within a few decades of the event.

There are no credible historians that clain noah is not myth.

Here it is a obvious case of cross cultural oral mythology.


The legend starts with Ziusudra who went down the river on a barge loaded with farm animals.

WE have a possible real king as he is found on the kown kings list. We also have a attested terrible river flood in 2900 that would have wiped many villages away.



You have trouble grasping that in 2900 BC there factually was a terrible flood in the levant with larg loss of life.


legends do not get passed down 1700 years from relatives, they get passed down in many cultures in the levant that used these incidents to teach lessons and morals in their theology.

 

[outhouse]

Flood stories are a dime a dozen cross-culturally whereas an estimated 60% of all societies had them as part of their religion, and the vast majority were in areas whereas flooding was pretty much commonplace. The flood account in Genesis appears to have not been about the local flooding in eretz Israel but almost undoubtedly about the flooding further east in the Tigris/Euphratise region as they had a flood narrative that long predated the writing of Genesis.

Exactly

And we also have much of the mythology being re written whne the Israelites returned from Mesopotamia after the exile.


So magine that! Israelites coming from Mesopotamia have Mesopotaiman mythology now embedded in their culture .

 

[Skwim]

We've already went through the "don't question God" phase... It was called the dark ages, which is the reason why we aren't exploring the galaxy by now.

But one can never repeat a question ad nauseam enough.

 

[rusra02]

You realize that animals will show signs of like genetic malformations as well? Who did they inherit it from?

How do you explain parasites? You know those things that live off of another or uses the creature to reproduce? What sin did the first insect/arthropod commit that would warrant it to death by cordcyeps?

How do you explain genetic malformations like sickle cell which arose due to pressures from mosquitos that transmit the parasitic malaria?

How do you explain bones of animals found that are several million years old but show signs of biting, tearing, and infection?

Animals, unlike humans, were not created to live forever. (2 Peter 2:12) nor can anyone say with certainty what life was like for animals before man's fall into sin and death. The Bible does speak of a change in animals for the better that will come when God's will is carried out fully on earth. (Isaiah 11:6-9) As to the age of bones, scientific dating is speculative and unreliable past just a few thousand years, IMO.

 

[rusra02]

So God punished us personally because of something our ancestors supposedly did 6000 years ago. That in itself tells a lot about the Judeo-Christian god. That's like spanking a child because his great grandfather said a bad word 100 years ago. Why that is considered a fair god by Christians is absolutely beyond me.

Had God exacted the death penalty immediately for Adam's sin, I believe you would not be here to question God's justice. As it is, God has provided hope for those adversely affected who are willing to take a different course than Adam did. (Romans 8:18-21)

 

[Thief]

The every same could be said about you, thief.

There are all sort of evidences that clearly demonstrated the law of nature or the law of physics don't require some sorts of supernatural divine being's actions or interventions in order for NATURE to exist the ways they do.

Seeing God's hand in everything, is not objectively looking at the evidences that can be observed or tested; seeing god's involvement with nature is denying reality.

Scientists have far better explanations (theories) about the Earth, Sun, Moon and stars, biology (both of animals and plant life) with supporting evidences than what is given the bible's Genesis (or creation).

The creation in Genesis should be view as traditional theological allegory, not science or history. Genesis 2 & 3 has moral messages and other symbolic meanings, which I actually understand.

You've wrote that you believe that evolution is a fact (back in post 621). That's good, because all evolution is biology that deal with diversity, in which life survive by adapting to changing environments or conditions. The mechanism is there in nature, and it doesn't require God to explain this natural biological mechanism.

If there really anything wrong with methodological naturalism?

Ignoring the evidences in natural science is crippling, intellectually.

I believe in God because of science.
Bring your explanations....one and all.
I will simply place God ...first.

Someone had to be First.
I believe in cause and effect.
Spirit first.

Placing substance first is shallow and dysfuntional.
It then bears to reason that Man is a complete mystery without resolve or purpose.

 

[metis]

What about Turkey ?

In regards to flooding issues?

 

[metis]

Exactly

And we also have much of the mythology being re written whne the Israelites returned from Mesopotamia after the exile.


So magine that! Israelites coming from Mesopotamia have Mesopotaiman mythology now embedded in their culture .

I covered a short unit on ancient Sumer in my basic anthropology class, and when you look at the characteristics of their religion, so much of it is found in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Of course, what each of these groups quite obviously did was to tailor these narratives to fit their own agenda, although even so much of the "agenda" itself has roots from other locations. This should obviously of no surprise since societies and cultures learn from each other.

 

[metis]

As to the age of bones, scientific dating is speculative and unreliable past just a few thousand years, IMO.

Actually that's quite false. Many dating techniques use radioactive isotopes that have known half-lives, therefore there is no speculation involved. If we didn't understand radioactivity, then how in the world could we build and use nuclear reactors.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Of course, what each of these groups quite obviously did was to tailor these narratives to fit their own agenda, although even so much of the "agenda" itself has roots from other locations. This should obviously of no surprise since societies and cultures learn from each other.

… and the theological agenda is the theology. Well said.

It's interesting that folks such as outhouse (who's been on my ignore-list for quite some time) seem so proud of themselves and what they presume to be their insightful exposés, despite the fact that these dependencies are well understood and openly addressed in many of the better Torah commentaries.

 

[Avi1001]

Actually that's quite false. Many dating techniques use radioactive isotopes that have known half-lives, therefore there is no speculation involved. If we didn't understand radioactivity, then how in the world could we build and use nuclear reactors.

Interesting point, Metis. I think some of the half lives go out to tens or even hundreds of thousands of years. Of course there is still uncertainty in the measurements, just like all measurements, there are issues of accuracy and precision.