Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[Ouroboros]

Actually, N14 is converted to C14 by solar radiation.

N14? I looked it up, and you're right. :bow:

One then needs to get a series of wood samples. When one compares two trees that died at different times, one can look for an overlap. if 1 represents a thin ring (Bad year) and 0 a fat ring, and one finds the sequence, 101001101110010001 in the outer part of one tree, and the same sequence, 101001101110010001 in the inner part of the other tree one can extend the time back farther. Scientists have series of trees that go from now back 10,000 years. From that, they generate wiggle graphs by analyzing the c14 in each ring. Instead of a straight slope as you go back in time, one get slight wiggles.

Yup. Sounds about right. And just to add to it, some rings are thicker than others which makes the mapping a little easier at some points, but it's been in the works for a while to get to what we have today.

Thus one C14 reading can point to 3 different years. Also, since it is a statistical process, one year is actually a range of years. The wiggle just makes it a wider range. One answer is to get a variety of samples and use Bayesian analysis to reduce the range. The used this recently for Egyptian Pharaohs, which helps date the Exodus.

Good points. Not sure about the exodus though, but that's okay.

Also, certain dates are very clear such as the eruption of Santorini, since the ring is so small.

Yup. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ring is smaller because of less sunlight during that summer?

In addition, the ring sequence in the Middle east is a floating one because there is trouble finding reliable wood from Roman times (ie prove it was not imported from another region.)

I didn't know that. Do you know if that's still a problem or if it has been solved? My understanding is that most issues were ironed out, but I could be wrong.

I am a fundamentalist, but love C14 dating.

Take it out for a coffee first, then you can do dinner.

 

[CG Didymus]

Take it out for a coffee first, then you can do dinner.

A movie wouldn't be bad either. But what ever he does, he should never go out with C4.

But really, how do YEC fundy's explain tree rings and other things that show that the Earth is older than they claim it to be?

 

[Avi1001]

No credible scholar is even looking for evidence towards any exodus.

There are no credible dates given for any exodus.

According to Finkelstein it is factual that the Israelites slowly developed from displace Canaanites that filled the highlands after 1200 BC.

It is factual that there was no mass exodus, and that the villages in the highlands grew over a 200 year period.

These proto Israelites worshiped Canaanite deities ONLY and showed no real cultural traits of their own until after 1000 BC

Here's an interesting post. I looked at this a little in the past, and thought that some of Finkelstein's work was disputed. Can you give a couple of links that you think supports your contention ?

The wiki description does not give much detail, but gives the sense that he is a respected academic archeologist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Finkelstein

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Here's an interesting post. I looked at this a little in the past, and thought that some of Finkelstein's work was disputed. Can you give a couple of links that you think supports your contention ?

The wiki description does not give much detail, but gives the sense that he is a respected academic archeologist:
Israel Finkelstein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He's talking about the Bible Unearthed, though Finkelstein's recent digging in I think 2011 has shown that he had to move back his contended age for the Iron Age period of Israel which was the time estimated for a United Monarchy, which puts the whole "there was no David and Solomon" into question.

The Iron Age Chronology Debate: Is the Gap Narrowing? | Israel Finkelstein - Academia.edu

Here's a link to what the thinks of the Iron Age

 

[Avi1001]

Thanks for this link, it looks like very scholarly work. This is an intriguing controversy.

Interestingly, I do not see anything yet that disputes the Exodus. Have you seen this ? Can you provide a link ?

He's talking about the Bible Unearthed, though Finkelstein's recent digging in I think 2011 has shown that he had to move back his contended age for the Iron Age period of Israel which was the time estimated for a United Monarchy, which puts the whole "there was no David and Solomon" into question.

The Iron Age Chronology Debate: Is the Gap Narrowing? | Israel Finkelstein - Academia.edu

Here's a link to what the thinks of the Iron Age

 

[Ouroboros]

A movie wouldn't be bad either. But what ever he does, he should never go out with C4.

It would be a very destructive relationship.

 

[metis]

One of the most interesting debates I've run across on this matter was between Finkelstein and Hershel Shanks, the latter being the former editor of BAR. Shanks pretty much took some of Finkelstein's over-statements and bashed him with them. I don't know if it's available on-line, but I'll try later today (I gotta head out shortly to deal with the snow-- again!).

 

[outhouse]

Thanks for this link, it looks like very scholarly work. This is an intriguing controversy.

Interestingly, I do not see anything yet that disputes the Exodus. Have you seen this ? Can you provide a link ?

Correct, it has nothing to do with the exodus.

This was more focused on later dating when a united monarchy had a chance to exist.


If you notice there is nothing from 1200 BC to 1000 BC in the discussion.


The exodus has been long abandoned by real acedemia

 

[greentwiga]

You have beat this drum a lot. Do you have any objection to my dating the Pharaohs using c14, helical rising of sothis, eclipse of Mursili, and lunar observations of Thutmosis? Is the dream stele a fake? Are the Amarna tablets later compositions? How about the Shasu of YHW? Is the Ipwer papyrus describing made up events? All these fit an 1406 Exodus scenario.

The only facts you quote also fit the description of Judges. The Israelites frequently worshipped the Canaanite gods, The Canaanites lived in cities while the Israelites w ere more nomadic, and would leave fewer relics in the cities where the digs occur. Finally, the Bible says the population went through a rough time about 1200 BC, and grew after. You have said nothing that proves this wrong. Your facts fits both scenarios. Therefore you have done nothing to prove the Exodus wrong.

 

[Ouroboros]

You have beat this drum a lot. Do you have any objection to my dating the Pharaohs using c14, helical rising of sothis, eclipse of Mursili, and lunar observations of Thutmosis? Is the dream stele a fake? Are the Amarna tablets later compositions? How about the Shasu of YHW? Is the Ipwer papyrus describing made up events? All these fit an 1406 Exodus scenario.

All those things look very interesting and intriguing. I have to look into it. Cool to see new things.

The only facts you quote also fit the description of Judges. The Israelites frequently worshipped the Canaanite gods, The Canaanites lived in cities while the Israelites w ere more nomadic, and would leave fewer relics in the cities where the digs occur. Finally, the Bible says the population went through a rough time about 1200 BC, and grew after. You have said nothing that proves this wrong. Your facts fits both scenarios. Therefore you have done nothing to prove the Exodus wrong.

What's your view on Ugarit?

 

[outhouse]

One of the most interesting debates I've run across on this matter was between Finkelstein and Hershel Shanks, the latter being the former editor of BAR. Shanks pretty much took some of Finkelstein's over-statements and bashed him with them. I don't know if it's available on-line, but I'll try later today (I gotta head out shortly to deal with the snow-- again!).

Shanks is a embarrassment in front of Finkelstein.

 

[Avi1001]

Correct, it has nothing to do with the exodus.

This was more focused on later dating when a united monarchy had a chance to exist.


If you notice there is nothing from 1200 BC to 1000 BC in the discussion.


The exodus has been long abandoned by real acedemia

This has the outlines for an interesting OP in the Judaism sub-forum. Are you ok with my referencing some of your posts to start the OP ?

I doubt mainstream Jewish academia has accepted your assertion that the Exodus has been abandoned. I am for more secular and reform than most and I have not heard that this has been accepted. You will of course have to provide more convincing documentation. Are you up to that ?

 

[outhouse]

You have beat this drum a lot. Do you have any objection to my dating the Pharaohs using c14, helical rising of sothis, eclipse of Mursili, and lunar observations of Thutmosis? Is the dream stele a fake? Are the Amarna tablets later compositions? How about the Shasu of YHW? Is the Ipwer papyrus describing made up events? All these fit an 1406 Exodus scenario.

The only facts you quote also fit the description of Judges. The Israelites frequently worshipped the Canaanite gods, The Canaanites lived in cities while the Israelites w ere more nomadic, and would leave fewer relics in the cities where the digs occur. Finally, the Bible says the population went through a rough time about 1200 BC, and grew after. You have said nothing that proves this wrong. Your facts fits both scenarios. Therefore you have done nothing to prove the Exodus wrong.

You need a few more years of constant reading, if you want to jump in this debate with me.

Your way off base, wishing and wanting with no evidence besides faith.


before 1209 there is no mention of Israel anywhere or its people because they did not exist.

At that time they were PROTO Israelites and SEMI nomadic.


There are no signs or evidence at all of a mass migration.

 

[Ouroboros]

So I looked up the Ipuwer Papyrus. The critique of using that as a parallel to Exodus is that it doesn't talk about the semites leaving, but the semites being a threat and an impeding invasion. It's the other way around. How would you solve that Greentwiga?

 

[outhouse]

This has the outlines for an interesting OP in the Judaism sub-forum. Are you ok with my referencing some of your posts to start the OP ?

I doubt mainstream Jewish academia has accepted your assertion that the Exodus has been abandoned. I am for more secular and reform than most and I have not heard that this has been accepted. You will of course have to provide more convincing documentation. Are you up to that ?

Carry on my friend

I am well read on this topic as well as the different ranges and opinions of the archeologist involved.


So far every minimalist doesn't have anything to stand on except slippery mud with no real evidence.


I like those who are in between the two camps as you will have noticed anyone on the extreme end of each camp Is pretty much wrong.

 

[outhouse]

The Canaanites lived in cities while the Israelites w ere more nomadic, .

You do know the Canaanite civilizations crumbled as well as many others in the Levant, leaving Semitic people with no government or supporting structure before we see these displaced Canaanites and other Semitic peoples slowly migrating to the Highlands that would become Israel.?????????????

 

[outhouse]

Are you ok with my referencing some of your posts to start the OP ?

I doubt mainstream Jewish academia has accepted your assertion that the Exodus has been abandoned.

Sure

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[4]

and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit


Here is the money shot below

A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins.[


The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute

 

[Avi1001]

You need a few more years of constant reading, if you want to jump in this debate with me.

Hopefully I still have a few good years to go !

Your way off base, wishing and wanting with no evidence besides faith.

Why do you think that I "wish and want no evidence" ?

I am a scientist and engineer. I almost exclusively deal with facts and figures.

before 1209 there is no mention of Israel anywhere or its people because they did not exist.

So you discount the entire Bible, the Torah, the Talmud and all ancient Jewish literature ?

Aren't archelogists in the Middle East constantly finding new evidence ? Isn't that the whole basis of your argument with Israel Finkelstein ? His work upended thousands of years of knowledge. You do not think this can happen again ?

At that time they were PROTO Israelites and SEMI nomadic.
There are no signs or evidence at all of a mass migration.

Actually, Egyptian friends of mine have also told me they did not learn about the Exodus in their history, so this is not new to me. But I have not seen any conclusive evidence that an Exodus did not occur.

So I ask again, can you post any links that we can review and discuss ?

 

[outhouse]

Hopefully I still have a few good years to go !



Why do you think that I "wish and want no evidence" ?

I am a scientist and engineer. I almost exclusively deal with facts and figures.



So you discount the entire Bible, the Torah, the Talmud and all ancient Jewish literature ?

Aren't archelogists in the Middle East constantly finding new evidence ? Isn't that the whole basis of your argument with Israel Finkelstein ? His work upended thousands of years of knowledge. You do not think this can happen again ?



Actually, Egyptian friends of mine have also told me they did not learn about the Exodus in their history, so this is not new to me. But I have not seen any conclusive evidence that an Exodus did not occur.

So I ask again, can you post any links that we can review and discuss ?

This was not directed at you my friend

It was directed at greentwiga

 

[outhouse]

So you discount the entire Bible, the Torah, the Talmud and all ancient Jewish literature ?

Absolutely not.

I take it into proper context of allegory, metaphor, song, poems, theology and moral lessons taught through mythology in many places.


As we know much of the mythology used was mythology of previous cultures.

Aren't archelogists in the Middle East constantly finding new evidence ?

Absolutely


And the more we find the more obvious the mythology is, and the more we find the more we see the true origins of the mythology that often doesn't have anything to do with Israelites history.

Isn't that the whole basis of your argument with Israel Finkelstein ? His work upended thousands of years of knowledge. You do not think this can happen again ?

His work did not upend anything. People have been working on these aspects for generations, hundreds and hundreds of years.


Lemche, Dever, Finkelstein, Silberman, even Faust who is more apologetic all have valuable information.

I have forgotten more names then I have read over the years.

So I ask again, can you post any links that we can review and discuss ?

Your talking about too large of a time period. You could get into specifics if you like.


I would address them the best I can