Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?

[Ouroboros]

It is interesting to me that the 1209 BC date given in this Wiki article is very close to the date that the Exodus was believed to have taken place. Do you disagree ?

Except that the stele doesn't portray them as slaves, but as nomads. With that being said, I can see how for instance some nomads were captured and made to slaves at that event, and then later those slaves escaped. Sometin' like that.

 

[outhouse]

Except that the stele doesn't portray them as slaves, but as nomads. With that being said, I can see how for instance some nomads were captured and made to slaves at that event, and then later those slaves escaped. Sometin' like that.

Semi nomadic actually


People like Shanks places them as a large enough city/state as to be mentioned on the Stele.


The Stele just claims them as a people without a king or kingdom.


You have to remember, nomads probably would not carry seeds with them.

You can also look at this time of the "Bronze age collapse"


There was a lot going on.

 

[Ouroboros]

The Stele just claims them as a people without a king or kingdom.
You have to remember, nomads probably would not carry seeds with them.

Good point.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Good point.

:beach:

 

[Avi1001]

Shanks may vie for that date for the exodus.

But the bible surely does not.

What is "the date that the Exodus was believed to have taken place" and according to whom?

My Jewish Study Bible (JSB, published by Oxford, and the Jewish Publication Society(JPS) translation), has almost the same info. as the Wiki reference:

...the Pharoah under whom the Israelites left Egypt may have been his son, Mernephtah (1213-1203 BCE).....

Ref. JSB p. 104 - Introduction to Exodus

If you have other dates and sources, please provide them.

 

[outhouse]

My Jewish Study Bible (JSB, published by Oxford, and the Jewish Publucation Society(JPS) translation), has almost the same info. as the Wiki reference:

...the Pharoah under whom the Israelites left Egypt may have been his son, Mernephtah (1213-1203 BCE).....

Ref. JSB p. 104

If you have other dates and sources, please provide them.

Probably this outdated source.

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The lack of evidence led William F. Albright, the leading biblical archaeologist of the period, to propose an alternative, "late" Exodus around 1250–1200 BCE.[39] His argument was based on the many strands of evidence, including the archaeologically attested destruction at Beitel (Bethel) and some other cities at around that period, and the occurrence from the same period of distinctive house-types and a distinctive round-collared jar which, in his opinion, was to be identified with in-coming Israelites.[39] Albright's theory enjoyed popularity around the middle of the 20th century,

but has now been generally abandoned in scholarship

 

[outhouse]

My Jewish Study Bible (JSB, published by Oxford, and the Jewish Publication Society(JPS) translation), has almost the same info. as the Wiki reference:

...the Pharoah under whom the Israelites left Egypt may have been his son, Mernephtah (1213-1203 BCE).....

Ref. JSB p. 104 - Introduction to Exodus

If you have other dates and sources, please provide them.

Is that not that based on the 1917 edition?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If you have other dates and sources, please provide them.

I've discussed the matter in a number of threads over a number of years. Should a new new thread on the Exodus or Israelite ethnogenesis emerge, I would likely participate. All I had wished to do here was acknowledge Finelstein's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Avi1001]

Is that not that based on the 1917 edition?

As far as I know, the modern versions of the JPS are a "completely new translation" from the 1917 edition. (See page xiv of the Introduction of the JSB, published 2004). This project was started in 1955.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

See, also, here.

Better (for those actually willing to read books rather than simply mining the internet) is …

Studies in Biblical Interpretation: JPS Scholars of Distinction Series​

 

[Avi1001]

An on-line book from 2012 by Shanks et.al. It discusses earlier dates for the Exodus, back to 1500 BC. And discusses possible multiple Exoduses. An interesting quick read:

http://archeologiabiblijna.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ancient-israel-in-egypt-and-the-exodus.pdf

 

[outhouse]

An on-line book from 2012 by Shanks et.al. It discusses earlier dates for the Exodus, back to 1500 BC. And discusses possible multiple Exoduses. An interesting quick read:

http://archeologiabiblijna.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/ancient-israel-in-egypt-and-the-exodus.pdf

Shanks sums up his work as

"Nothing conclusive here"



And is dealing with "gray granite slab" in which there is not enough a consensus as to what the missing part of the third circle states.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

An interesting quick read: ...

What do you find interesting and compelling in it?

 

[Triumphant_Loser]

Had God exacted the death penalty immediately for Adam's sin, I believe you would not be here to question God's justice. As it is, God has provided hope for those adversely affected who are willing to take a different course than Adam did. (Romans 8:18-21)

Or... You know, he could have just punished THEM and left the rest of us alone, or better yet he could have NOT put a giant caused tree in the middle of a garden for no other purpose than to taunt two people who did not know right from wrong to begin with. Why did he put it there in the first place, if he foreknew that if he did, they would disobey, and all of mankind would have ended up being cursed with death, disease, and illness befalling innocent people? Let me know when the position for god becomes open. I'm sure I could do a better job than the current one, and I sure as hell wouldn't treat MY creation like that.

 

[Avi1001]

Shanks sums up his work as

"Nothing conclusive here"

And is dealing with "gray granite slab" in which there is not enough a consensus as to what the missing part of the third circle states.

I think you are being a bit harsh with Shanks here. When he says "nothing conclusive here", what that means is he has some intuitive hits, but the data to support it is not in yet. Many great scientific discoveries have been made based on a scientist's intuition.

Wrt the slab, I have to agree that the scientific field of archeology is still fairly nascent. But so, after all, is the quantitative aspects of biology. We have to give some fields extra time to develop.

 

[outhouse]

I think you are being a bit harsh with Shanks here. When he says "nothing conclusive here", what that means is he has some intuitive hits, but the data to support it is not in yet. Many great scientific discoveries have been made based on a scientist's intuition.

Wrt the slab, I have to agree that the scientific field of archeology is still fairly nascent. But so, after all, is the quantitative aspects of biology. We have to give some fields extra time to develop.

Agreed.

With the exception of Shanks, he posits bias over evidence.


He ignores this below and it something he will have to deal with because the evidence is hard and solid.

Nothing can be found to turn this over.

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.



When we put the exodus mythology next to Noah and Babel, and creation mythology, why even try and place it in a historical context? it is theology that is beautiful, not history.

The Exodus (from Greek ἔξοδος, exodos, "going out") is the "charter myth" of Israel;

The reality is that below probably describes what we have closer to any truth possible.

In a recent work, Stephen C. Russell traces the 8th century prophetic tradition to three originally separate variants, in the northern kingdom of Israel, in Trans-Jordan, and in the southern kingdom of Judah. Russell proposes different hypothetical historical backgrounds to each tradition: the tradition from Israel, which involves a journey from Egypt to the region of Bethel, he suggests is a memory of herders who could move to and from Egypt in times of crisis; for the Trans-Jordanian tradition, which focuses on deliverance from Egypt without a journey, he suggests a memory of the withdrawal of Egyptian control at the end of the Late Bronze Age; and for Judah, whose tradition is preserved in the Song of the Sea, he suggests the celebration of a military victory over Egypt, although it is impossible to suggest what this victory may have been

 

[greentwiga]

It would be a very destructive relationship.

That would be going out with a bang. Christians shouldn't do that, at least on a first date.

 

[Avi1001]

Agreed.

With the exception of Shanks, he posits bias over evidence.


He ignores this below and it something he will have to deal with because the evidence is hard and solid.

Nothing can be found to turn this over.

The Exodus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think most Jews still believe that there was an Exodus. Shanks is not unusual in this.

By the way, you seem especially interested in this topic. I guess you are quite compassionate toward the Jewish people. Am I reading you right ?

The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.

Isn't it amazing, they were Kosher even back then ?

When we put the exodus mythology next to Noah and Babel, and creation mythology, why even try and place it in a historical context? it is theology that is beautiful, not history.

The Exodus (from Greek ἔξοδος, exodos, "going out") is the "charter myth" of Israel;

When we go back 3,000 years it is impossible to separate history from mythology. They are inextricably mixed.

The reality is that below probably describes what we have closer to any truth possible.

In a recent work, Stephen C. Russell traces the 8th century prophetic tradition to three originally separate variants, in the northern kingdom of Israel, in Trans-Jordan, and in the southern kingdom of Judah. Russell proposes different hypothetical historical backgrounds to each tradition: the tradition from Israel, which involves a journey from Egypt to the region of Bethel, he suggests is a memory of herders who could move to and from Egypt in times of crisis; for the Trans-Jordanian tradition, which focuses on deliverance from Egypt without a journey, he suggests a memory of the withdrawal of Egyptian control at the end of the Late Bronze Age; and for Judah, whose tradition is preserved in the Song of the Sea, he suggests the celebration of a military victory over Egypt, although it is impossible to suggest what this victory may have been

I have not heard of Russell, and cannot find anything on him. Can you please provide some links ?

 

[Avi1001]

What do you find interesting and compelling in it?

In addition to the points I mentioned, the piece by Hoffmeier brings many interesting archeological questions forward. Some of these doubt the presence of Jews in Egypt.

And, I did not say I found it compelling.

 

[rusra02]

Actually that's quite false. Many dating techniques use radioactive isotopes that have known half-lives, therefore there is no speculation involved. If we didn't understand radioactivity, then how in the world could we build and use nuclear reactors.

You may not be aware that "scientific" radioactive dating relies on assumptions that are very questionable, and in fact, are being questioned. A google search of radioactive dating methods reveals the doubts raised by some scientists. So labeling a statement as "quite false" is a bit cheeky, IMO. And with all the radioactive waste and nuclear accidents, we seem to understand radioactivity just enough to be dangerous.