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Can a literal Genesis creation story really hold up?
- Thread starter CG Didymus
- Start date
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
I always thought that one of the lessons of Genesis was to admit when you've done something wrong and ask for forgiveness. After eating from the fruit, neither Adam or Eve took the responsibility rather they passed the blame amongst themselves. As well when Cain killed Abel instead of admitting to it, he tries to shrug off the blame.
greentwiga
Active Member
I choose both, when you translate accurately. It is a talking serpent. In Revelations, it is equated with a dragon, not a snake.
Now, what is it about? We have a very hard time understanding the religion of 8,000 BC. We can only get hints from remnants of the religion here and there. One of the clearest examples is the Oracle at Delphi. Both Delphi and Eden were on mountains, in groves of trees, and at springs. The oracle and eve were both females. The oracle was called the Pythea because the priestess talked to Python, the serpent. She was possessed by Python and gave the oracle he spoke to her. Thus, The garden accurately reflects the ancient religion of speaking to the serpent. The Oracle at Delphi makes it a positive thing. Eden has it negative, and if it was possession, the Bible has always been against possession, and thus we can understand why this was a major sin, not just the silly sin of eating a fruit.
Again, I maintain everything in the account was accurate.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Umm a snake is a serpent though and we know that dragons don't exist....
Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
So you admit that the Genesis creation account borrows from Greek Paganism, yet you still maintain it's so-called "accuracy." Also, I do not find talking dragons to be any more believable than talking snakes. If anything, it's even less believable.
Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
I think they've been smoking a little too much of that "burning bush" if you know what I mean.
Evidence?
Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
@ Jayhawker Soule
There ya' go.
greentwiga
Active Member
I don't date the oracle to 8,000 BC. I said that we have few remnant evidences of the Mother Goddess worship. We can get a hint here or a glimpse there.
The Oracle ruins are on a mountain. The garden was at a spot between the Tigris and Euphrates where four streams separate and flow into four rivers. This can only be on a mountain.
You don't have to believe in talking Dragons/Serpents. All that is required is that the people of the past did and tried to communicate with them. Thus the story is historically accurate because this was a real religion, even if the Serpent God is non-existent.
Thus, the Bible does not borrow from ancient paganism. Like the confrontation of Elijah with the prophets of Ba'al, it mentions this worship[ to oppose it.
All along, the Bible equates false Gods with demons and Satan. To pray to be possessed by the God would in the Bible's eyes be demon possessed.
outhouse
Atheistically
Your whole post is about as wrong as anyone can be when dealing with history in the Levant.
They have found plenty of ancient godess statues but they are Asherah and from a much later date.
Isarelites were polytheistic so your wrong again in that respect. Every single diety they have was worshipped by previous cultures. This is a fact not up for debate.
There is noting historically accurate about talking animals.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Well technically you have talking Parrots and Crows
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Triumphant_Loser
Libertarian Egalitarian
But they don't know what they're saying. They just repeat what their owner says.
greentwiga
Active Member
Interestingly, the ancient villages 8,000 to 10,000 BC all had goddess statues, except for a small area between the Tigris and Euphrates, right where the Bible says the Garden was.
I never said there were talking animals. I said, historically there was a religion that believed it was talking to a serpent (or a God in serpent form). This story shows a rejection of that religion. This is like saying it is historically accurate to say the Egyptian worshipped Ra, or saying that the Canaan worshipped Ba'al. Then saying the Bible rejects the worship of Ba'al. The Bible never claims Ra or Ba'al were real Gods.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure it's the form given that it says "the serpent was among the craftiest of gods creations" parapharasing but craftiness would be its nature it's pretty clear the form is a serpent.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
It does not but it's alluded that they were.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Talking donkeys and serpents sounds mythical. Does it happen today? In cartoons and movies. Do we believe those things are real? No. But when it says so in the Bible in puts us in an awkward position, believe it is literally true or something else, like fantasy. Fantasy with a good message, like Toy Story, or Avatar, or South Park. I know it strengthens you to believe, and it's for the better. But some of us can't believe like that. If it came to us from long ago, and it has miraculous supernatural things going on, then maybe those ancient people made it up. Heck, today we have people that have seen aliens or the Virgin Mary. Are those things real? They are to some people. Lots of people are true believer in UFO's and ET. Lots of Catholics will get healed by visiting the place where someone saw a vision of Mary. There is something there, a placebo or self-fulling prophecy type of thing going on? A hallucination? Or, are those things real? People see ghosts, but I've heard some Christians say there is no such thing. Genesis as a literal, historical account doesn't sound real to me, but it has a good spiritual message to it, especially for Jews. Even though they say they take it literal, Christians have to read into it a little.
greentwiga
Active Member
Just look at the story of Eden by itself. Where was it? If you look at watersheds, the dividing line between them are the high points between them, usually a hill or mountain. The most drastic line in North America is the Continental divide. On one side, everything flows into the Pacific. On the other side, the Atlantic. From the description, we are looking at the divide between the Tigris and Euphrates. There are two other rivers, but they might be tributaries.
Then we can look at the vegetation. On Hawaii, we can see drastic changes in vegetation dependin on if we are on the dry side or wet side, depending on if we are at 1,000 feet elevation or 7,000 feet. In Eden, we know about two plants, figs and wheat. The account says this was before man cultivated plants, so we are looking at the range of the wild forms. Figs can't grow in the drier desert climates or up the mountains in the colder climates. Wheat is similar, but will grow in somewhat drier zones. From north to south, there is only about 100 miles between the Tigris and Euphrates where they both grow.
Now, one interesting mention is the flaming sword. This could be a lava fountain. Is there a volcano in the region? Yes, right in the center of it. It is a shield volcano, the type most likely to produce a lava fountain. It is also the place where wheat grows the most abundantly. North, it gets colder and less wheat grows. South, the increasing dryness reduces the wheat production. Thus, this mountain, Karacadag is the most likely location for Eden.
Adam was told he would grow wheat by his sweat, and fight thistles. He was the first wheat farmer. A team of five German scientists (Heun, et al), having nothing to do with Christianity, used DNA analysis to show wheat was only domesticated at Karacadag. The domestication of Lentils and especially Chickpeas, two of the other founder crops, also supports the region of Karacadag.
A view of Google Earth shows the mountain drains into four basins. The other two are the Khabur that winds before joining the Euphrates., and a small tributary of the Tigris that circles around before joining the Tigris.
No other proposed location for Eden has figs, and few have wheat.
Thus, the Bible preserved for 10,000 years the location of the domestication of wheat, a fact we only recently rediscovered.