Can a person choose to believe?

[Cephus]

I think that this position is stretching the truth.

1) Science thought they had "the truth" until the theory of relativity came about and who knows what the black hole will do to all the theories.
2) I have turned the light switch on and it shorted.

Then you have no clue what science is. All ideas are provisional, based on the evidence we currently have. When we get more evidence, we re-examine our theories to see if they still hold true. If they do not, we change them. Welcome to reality. There is no universal, never-changing truth. That's a fantasy.

 

[Kenny]

Then you have no clue what science is. All ideas are provisional, based on the evidence we currently have. When we get more evidence, we re-examine our theories to see if they still hold true. If they do not, we change them. Welcome to reality. There is no universal, never-changing truth. That's a fantasy.

OHhhh... I get it. Science gets to adjust but it remains reliable. Science is provisional but it is truth.

However, love that forgives is not reliable even though it never changes.

Got it! Thanks for helping me understand.

 

[Cephus]

OHhhh... I get it. Science gets to adjust but it remains reliable. Science is provisional but it is truth.

However, love that forgives is not reliable even though it never changes.

Got it! Thanks for helping me understand.

Are you unaware that we learn new things every day? Is that something that hasn't occurred to you? Seriously?

 

[Kenny]

Are you unaware that we learn new things every day? Is that something that hasn't occurred to you? Seriously?

this isn't about science, which I agree with. It is your erroneous statement about faith and truth.

I noticed you didn't address the love issue that doesn't change.

 

[Elusive Truth]

I have a question.
I consider myself agnostic because I have never felt any certainty about a God. I haven't had any religious experiences but I also cannot say that I decisively do not believe in God (or anything else, for that matter).
The only thing I know is that I don't know.
However, I have visited temples and churches. Sometimes because of my studies, sometimes because I was simply interested. In a Christian Pentecostal movement, I met some really nice (and extremely enthusiastic) people who told me that faith was a matter of choice. At one point, you simply have to decide to believe and reach out to God and then he will reach out to you. They told me that many of them had had doubts of their own, and they only went away when they completely devoted themselves to their faith and their church.
I simply don't understand. Or maybe I'm just not capable of doing what they say. How can you reach out to God if you're not even sure to whom or what you are speaking?
The same is for people who say they "decided" to join a specific group or community. How is it possible to choose what to believe? Either you believe it or you don't, right?
I am curious what your experiences are in this area. Especially those of you who are believers - was it a deliberate choice you made? Or did you simple "feel" it was the truth some day, whether you wanted to believe it or not?

Can a person choose not to believe?

If you choose not to decide... you still have made a choice.

The answer is (no)

 

[Cephus]

this isn't about science, which I agree with. It is your erroneous statement about faith and truth.

There's no such thing as eternal truth, sorry. Everything is provisional. We know what we know today. What we learn tomorrow might very well change what we know today. It's an eternally advancing proposition.

I noticed you didn't address the love issue that doesn't change.

Tell any adult that love never changes, they'll laugh in your face. We've all had our first loves. Almost without exception, we no longer love them. Try again.

 

[Elusive Truth]

this isn't about science, which I agree with. It is your erroneous statement about faith and truth.

I noticed you didn't address the love issue that doesn't change.

To believe that if you put your hand in boiling hot water it will get burned doesn't take much rationality...

I am a believer, I ain't no deceiver

 

[Kenny]

To believe that if you put your hand in boiling hot water it will get burned doesn't take much rationality...

I am a believer, I ain't no deceiver

I know there is some logic in all that you have said... Maybe I'll figure it out someday

 

[Elusive Truth]

I know there is some logic in all that you have said... Maybe I'll figure it out someday

Thanks lol... I probably hit reply in the wrong thread again?

cheers!

 

[Kenny]

Thanks lol... I probably hit reply in the wrong thread again?

cheers!

LOL - It's all cool! Be it far from me to throw the first stone knowing I have done things like that to often.

 

[Elusive Truth]

LOL - It's all cool! Be it far from me to throw the first stone knowing I have done things like that to often.

Life man...

They're stoning me to death!

Why?

 

[jonathan180iq]

I think that this position is stretching the truth.

1) Science thought they had "the truth" until the theory of relativity came about and who knows what the black hole will do to all the theories.
2) I have turned the light switch on and it shorted.

1. When mistakes are discovered in knowledge, the scientific community acknowledges those mistakes in lieu of new evidence, always being directed towards truth.
2. Which is easily explained (and should have been expected as a possibility) in the very "complicated" science of a circuit...

And, in reference to claims of faith,

1) Israel exists with their language and customs - a feat that has never happened in all of history because of their faith. (not beyond imaginative and a very objective measure.
2) Lives have been transformed through faith where scientific methods did not work. Countless testimonies of that fact with no imagination necessary.

1. Israel exists as of the 1940s, and after at least 50 some-odd years of political negotiating, plus a very bad thing which preceded it's foundation. How about Aka-Bo & Koro?
2. No religion has successfully prayed cancer away. Countless testimonies of that fact with no imagination necessary.

 

[Kenny]

1. When mistakes are discovered in knowledge, the scientific community acknowledges those mistakes in lieu of new evidence, always being directed towards truth.
2. Which is easily explained (and should have been expected as a possibility) in the very "complicated" science of a circuit...

Correct.

1. Israel exists as of the 1940s, and after at least 50 some-odd years of political negotiating, plus a very bad thing which preceded it's foundation. How about Aka-Bo & Koro?

No country has had their people flung throughout the whole of the world for 2,000 years and come back and create their country again with the same language and customs. This is a known scientific fact.

2. No religion has successfully prayed cancer away. Countless testimonies of that fact with no imagination necessary.

I beg to differ.

We have evidence in our own congregation. She was told she had stage 4 cancer and had 6 months to live. She was completely healed in 3 months and doctors can't explain why. We can! And no imagination is necessary.

 

[jonathan180iq]

No country has had their people flung throughout the whole of the world for 2,000 years and come back and create their country again with the same language and customs. This is a known scientific fact.

Not the same language. Not the same customs. And not even the same people.

 

[Kenny]

Not the same language. Not the same customs. And not even the same people.

I believe you are wrong.

And I do hope it isn't the same people (or if it is, I want to know their secret on longevity.)

 

[NulliuSINverba]

They are two different things, but at some point one cannot exist without the other.

Disbelief is the proper response to a lack of evidence. Denial is a possible response to a preponderance of evidence.

Hell maybe I'm using the word belief to be synonomous with faith, but I really don't consider them to be two separate things. Creationists use ample amounts of both in order to maintain their faith, right?

I'm going to maintain that belief is arrived at once one is convinced by evidence. Faith is what one resorts to in lieu of evidence.

Either way, I'm trying to speak in generalities so as not to only harp on religious belief. There are all kinds of hokum that people indulge in; God(s) is just one facet of it.

Crucial reminder: Anyone who feels offended that you've just dismissed God as "hokum" needs to be reminded that you're not harping on religious belief.

And that goes hand in hand with then denying the evidence against Santa, and choosing to revert back to what was "known" before, that Santa exists.

Apparently, Santa's existence was only parenthetically known and it was based on bogus evidence.

Glad you caught that.

Ho ho ho.

 

[Right lane]

Even some who were godless such as Prof. Antony Flew concluded that " There are evils in abundance which could Not be put down to a consequence of human sin."

Flew also concluded that " DNA research has shown by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangement which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved."

So, where there is intelligence isn't there is a mind ?______ Where there is a mind there is a person. Where there is a person there is a personality. Does science say our material world, the universe, had a start or a beginning?________
According to Scripture, God used His ' power and strength ' - His abundant energy - to create the visible realm - Isaiah 40:26

So, if there is something that we don't yet understand, your default assumption is "God did it" ? Why ? Are there no other possible explanations ? Isn't that how primitive man explained weather phenomena and disease ? We now know that God is not what causes storms or disease. Why do you still retreat to the God explainations when dealing with the remaining unknowns ?

 

[Right lane]

OHhhh... I get it. Science gets to adjust but it remains reliable. Science is provisional but it is truth.

However, love that forgives is not reliable even though it never changes.

Got it! Thanks for helping me understand.

Of course our understanding of science changes as new facts are discovered. That is what the scientific method is all about. But, unlike religion, it doesn't claim to be never changing absolute truth. Rather, it always stands ready to change when new facts emerge that challenge our current understanding.

You say "Love that forgives, it never changes".

I assume you are referring to the jesus myth. Well, with over 35,000 different sects of Christianity, it seems there is no such thing as a "never changing" view of Jesus.

Besides, is Jesus really that "forgiving" ? Below is what he preaches. I don't see a whole lot of forgiveness for the billions of non-christians in these teachings.

Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”

2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

You shall have no other gods before Me.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So, if there is something that we don't yet understand, your default assumption is "God did it" ? Why ? Are there no other possible explanations ? Isn't that how primitive man explained weather phenomena and disease ? We now know that God is not what causes storms or disease. Why do you still retreat to the God explainations when dealing with the remaining unknowns ?

Right, when Jesus said there would be illness,storms, etc. - Matthew 24 and Luke 21 - Jesus was Not teaching such things from God.
Rather, Jesus calmed the stormy sea and healed the sick and resurrected the dead. On the other hand, Satan is the one called the ' god' of this world of badness at 2nd Cor. 4:4. Satan will come to a final end - Jesus will destroy Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B.

What remaining unknowns ?
The next or final signal, so to speak, is found at 1st Thess. 5 vs 2,3 when ' they ' (powers that be ) will be saying Peace and Safety or Peace and Security as a precursor to the great tribulation of Revelation 7:14. The words from Jesus' mouth will be as sharp as an executioner's sword to rid the earth of wickedness - Isaiah 11 vs 3,4; Rev. 19 vs 11,15 - before Jesus, as Prince of Peace, ushers in global Peace on Earth among men of goodwill.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Of course our understanding of science changes as new facts are discovered. That is what the scientific method is all about. But, unlike religion, it doesn't claim to be absolute truth. Rather, it always stands ready to change if proven wrong.
"Love that forgives, it never changes".
I assume you are referring to the jesus myth. Well, with over 35,000 different sects of Christianity, it seems there is no such thing as a "never changing" view of Jesus.
Besides, is jesus really that "forgiving" ?
Mark 16:16. “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who disbelieves will be condemned.”
2 Thessalonians, 8-9:"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."
John 3:36 : “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
Luke 12:5: "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."
John 15:6 : "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."
You shall have no other gods before Me.[/QUOTE

It is Not the Bible that is wrong, but men making mistakes about Jesus and the Bible that is wrong.
Gospel writer Luke forewarned us at Acts 20 vs 29,30 how there would be false clergy misleading the flock of God.
Remember Jesus illustration of the wheat and the weeds?______
The genuine ' wheat ' Christians would grow together over the centuries with the fake ' weed/tares' Christians until the harvest time, or the soon coming ' time of separation ' of Matthew 25 vs 31,32.

Please see also Matthew chapter 7 because Jesus taught that MANY would come ' in his name ' but prove false.

KJV Bibles took the liberty to add on the verse at Mark 16:16. The gospel of Mark ends at Mark 16:8
Also, KJV translated the word Gehenna as hell. Gehenna was just a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and Not kept burning forever. So, Gehenna is a fitting word for destruction. Such as the wicked will be destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7
So, when fire is mentioned it is often in connection to: destruction. As mentioned above ' punishment is equated with destruction ' at 2nd Thess. 1:9. Jesus ends up destroying Satan - Hebrews 2:14 B

There is also a BIG difference between the Bible's temporary hell and the religious-myth hell of burning forever taught as Scripture.
The day Jesus died Jesus went to the temporary Bible's hell or grave - Acts 2:27; Psalm 16:10
Jesus only taught unconscious sleep in death - John 11 vs 11-14
Jesus would have learned that sleeping state for the dead from the old Hebrew Scriptures such as found at :
Psalms 6:5; 13:3; 115:17; 146:4; Daniel 12:2,13; Ecclesiastes 9:5
There ' is going to be ' a resurrection...... as mentioned at Acts 24:15
By the end of Jesus' coming 1000-year kingdom governmental rule over earth anyone who would want to bring ruin to earth (literal or moral ) will be brought to ruin at that time - Rev. 11:18 B. Destroyed forever - Psalm 92:7 - Not tortured forever.