Can a person not believe in the God of Abraham and be a Christian?

[Colt]

Can a person not believe in the God of Abraham and be a Christian?

I don't believe in a Supreme Being, I am a Pantheist

My "God" is metaphysical rather than personal

I don't believe in this guy:

View attachment 96939

However: I believe that Jesus Christ is somehow real (but won't go into the details of that here, not right now)

I believe that he is at work in our world right now, and I find the stories about him in the Christian scriptures to be inspiring and wise

So I don't know whether or not I can call myself a Christian

On RF the Christian DIR is under the Abrahamic DIR so I don't think I can really be active in there if I don't believe in the God that most people who profess to be Christians believe in

Same God but understood differently. The God of Jesus made the agreement with Abram but the portrayal or conceptualization of that God is largely human as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures. They put lots of words in Gods mouth and credited behaviors to deity which were the doings of humans.

 

[1213]

Because it doesn't say that a Christian is a disciple of Jesus. It says that the Christians were disciples

It says: "the disciples were called Christians".

(presumably of Jesus) who were part of a group who were taught by Paul. The distinction of Pauline influence becomes more pronounced with the book of Revelation, where the target audience were those who had rejected Paul, and therefore didn't really meet the definition of Christian even through they were the ecclesia of the voice of the Revelation of the book of John.

Interesting, I see it differently. But, maybe it would be best, if disciples of Jesus would not call themselves anymore Christians, but instead disciples of Jesus.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, and I don't understand why you would want to call yourself Christian if you reject the most basic things He espoused.

"Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment"

Does love of something require belief in its literal, physical existence?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would say that trying to make an argument you are Christian given the beliefs you have may be a bit like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. That is absolutely not to disrespect your beliefs, only to say that they just don't sound Christian. The Christian Bible includes the Jewish texts, which are all about the God of Abraham.

Christianity isn't exactly beholden to those Jewish texts. I mean, Trinitarianism is mainstream Christianity, for instance.

 

[paarsurrey]

Can a person not believe in the God of Abraham and be a Christian?

Aren't all the Pauline-Hellenist-Christians of 45000+ denominations (including JWs and LDS aka Mormons) already praying and worshipping other than the G-d of Abraham, Jacob-Israel and Moses, please, right?

Regards
___________________
First Page Cherry Pick:

It's not my place to define another's religious traditions, but my understanding is acceptance of the Abrahamic god is... sort of one of the baseline requirements for being any sort of Abrahamic adherent, whether Christian, Muslim, or Jew. They are explicitly (mono)theistic religious traditions.

You would be a heretic by definition, if that. The only orthodox form of Christianity is Nicaean. That's why all heretical forms have a prefix such as Arian or Nestorian.

 

[PureX]

Yes. Christ is a revelation and a promise based on adopting a way of being in the world. It is not a religious ideology. We can recognize this way of being and choose to adopt it without any particular religious dogma being involved.

 

[Muffled]

Just to be clear I think Christians are idolaters, but the idea of believing in Jesus and not the G-d of Abraham is silly. Jesus said repeatedly that HaShem existed and promoted the notion that they were intertwined, therefore believing in Jesus but not G-d is calling Jesus a liar.

I believe there are a few who border on idolatry but the real faith is not idolatry.

 

[Muffled]

Can a person not believe in the God of Abraham and be a Christian?

Aren't all the Pauline-Hellenist-Christians of 45000+ denominations (including JWs and LDS aka Mormons) already praying and worshipping other than the G-d of Abraham, Jacob-Israel and Moses, please, right?

Regards
___________________
First Page Cherry Pick:

I believe that is not so.

 

[Muffled]

Same God but understood differently. The God of Jesus made the agreement with Abram but the portrayal or conceptualization of that God is largely human as recorded in the Hebrew scriptures. They put lots of words in Gods mouth and credited behaviors to deity which were the doings of humans.

I believe I don't agree with that. The only case I know of were the false prophets.

 

[Ebionite]

It says: "the disciples were called Christians".

Interesting, I see it differently. But, maybe it would be best, if disciples of Jesus would not call themselves anymore Christians, but instead disciples of Jesus.

Back then they were called the people of the way. According to the gospel of Thomas the inner circle was told to go to James the Just after Jesus left them.

 

[wellwisher]

Can a person not believe in the God of Abraham and be a Christian?

I don't believe in a Supreme Being, I am a Pantheist

My "God" is metaphysical rather than personal

I don't believe in this guy:

View attachment 96939

However: I believe that Jesus Christ is somehow real (but won't go into the details of that here, not right now)

I believe that he is at work in our world right now, and I find the stories about him in the Christian scriptures to be inspiring and wise

So I don't know whether or not I can call myself a Christian

On RF the Christian DIR is under the Abrahamic DIR so I don't think I can really be active in there if I don't believe in the God that most people who profess to be Christians believe in

Yes. If you just read just the red quotes of a red quote bible, that highlights the sayings of Jesus in red lettering, than that works. Jesus is part of a new dispensation where BC becomes AD. The change from ancient to modern times, in western culture is based on the life of Jesus. The modern international year is based on Jesus. It is useful to learn from the history that came before, but it is not necessary, if you learn the change.

As far as Paul, he spoke less about the heart. and more to the mind, since not everyone can have a change of heart, unless their mind can also see the logic. Jesus was an extreme example of a loving and forgiving heart, that was hard to copy, if one was too intellectual. Paul offered reason and logic for this change. Paul even addressed the Roman Senate, who were all well educated and well read to give his rational. Paul was then executed, due the implication of law being made obsolete. Rome needed law to maintain order in the empire and what Paul taught and explain was destabilizing. Jesus led by example which was less of a threat to Rome.

Jesus taught about the forgiveness of sins. Sin is not imputed where there is no law. Gambling is lawful in some States but not in others. There is only sin where it is illegal and there is a law. Where there is no law, there is no social sin. Law defines sin. If Jesus forgives sin, then this neutralizes law, since forgiven means no sin which means no law.

As an example, say the road sign said $50 speeding fines. You are speeding and are pulled over. The trooper is nice and lets you off with a warning. If you do the math, he forgave the sin of speeding, by not issuing the fine; no punishment means no sin. At that moment, you were free from the law of speeding and sin, due to his kindness and forgiveness. Sin is not imputed where there is no law and inversely law is not imputed where there is no sin, due to forgiveness. This upset the Pharisees since they believe only God could alter the law via forgiveness.

Psalm 32-1: Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit.

Paul creates logic to explain how law is evil, since it creates knowledge of evil. To know the law you also need to know the evil, so you can avoid the evil. Without law this evil knowledge, may not have dawned on you, allowing your heart to stay cleaner. Through the law comes the knowledge of sin and evil. Law teaches you shady behavior, so you can avoid, what you were already avoiding, by not knowing about it. After learning law, there is extra evil data in your brain. This is repressed to be good and can lead to compulsion. When Prohibition made alcohol illegal, the amount of crime, even among law enforcement increased. This is textbook example of the negative effects of law. When it was repealed the evil died down.

 

[servant1]

Peace to all,

To me the God of Abraham promised, swore by His own Name eternal life to the descendents of Abraham and Isaac, and 2000 years later He fufilled it with His Son, Jesus.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

Nice post. I think by descendants it meant= true followers of the true living God.

Are these people still "on earth?" Who are you calling "The world"?

How many of those "claiming to be Christian" with which you've engaged in your lifetime that are alive today tell you they hate Jesus and his followers?

I didn't say Christians hated Jesus and his followers. I said those of the world do. And it will get worse for Followers of Jesus at end of the tribulation. Gog of Magog( coalition of nations) rises against them. It says they will come to kill. That triggers Gods day of anger against the world.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Christianity isn't exactly beholden to those Jewish texts. I mean, Trinitarianism is mainstream Christianity, for instance.

Sorry, but if you think the Old Testament isn't part of Christian canon, you need to go back to Religion 101.

Trinitarianism wasn't even a Christian dogma until the 4th century. It is mainstream dogma NOW. But go back to the 2nd century, and the vast majority of Christians were Modalists.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Sorry, but if you think the Old Testament isn't part of Christian canon, you need to go back to Religion 101.

Trinitarianism wasn't even a Christian dogma until the 4th century. It is mainstream dogma NOW. But go back to the 2nd century, and the vast majority of Christians were Modalists.

That's my point: Trinitarianism the most mainstream Christian belief despute it being incompatible with a big chunk of the Christian canon.

Trinitarian Christians don't care about whether their beliefs are consistent with their scripture; why should non-theist Christians care?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

That's my point: Trinitarianism the most mainstream Christian belief despute it being incompatible with a big chunk of the Christian canon.

There are some verses in the Bible that imply Jesus is just a man, and other verses that imply he is God, meaning that in the first century this question was disputed. By the second century, the common dogma accepted that he was God, but was Modalism.

Remember that at this time, there was NO New Testament. The gospels and various epistles were being passed around (along with many other documents that never made it into the Bible) but they were not considered scripture that this point.

Later in history, Arius began dredging up the old ideas that he was not God. This created friction in the church. In addition to this, there was the hairy problem of "If Jesus is God, what does that mean? Is there more than one god? Is Jesus the Father?" etc. The purpose of the council of Nicea was to address all these issues.

Trinitarian Christians don't care about whether their beliefs are consistent with their scripture; why should non-theist Christians care?

That's just baloney. I have never met a Trinitarian that didn't care about their beliefs matching with the New Testament. This seems to be a simply ugly slam by you towards a group you dislike.

 

[blü 2]

But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness

In Genesis' Garden story, what in your view did the snake say to Eve that was deceptive?

As I read it, the only deceptive statement was God saying that "in the day that you eat of it you will die" ─ which was simply untrue, exactly as the snake said.

so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I don't see how obtaining knowledge of good and evil, even if only in a folktale, is corrupting. What problem do you have with it?

4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!
2 Corinthians 11:3-4

Well, you can take your pick of the five versions of Jesus that the NT offers. One (Mark's) was an ordinary Jewish citizen who became 'son of God' by adoption after JtB baptized him. Two (Paul's and John's) pre-existed in heaven with God, created the material universe regardless of what Genesis may say, and came to earth in a manner not described, except that it allowed the claim "descended from David". Two (Matthew's, Luke's) were born of a virgin, but their respective claims to be descended from David are incoherent as well as irreconcilable. What they have in common is that each denies he's God.

Which do you say is the correct one?

 

[Colt]

Sorry, but if you think the Old Testament isn't part of Christian canon, you need to go back to Religion 101.

Trinitarianism wasn't even a Christian dogma until the 4th century. It is mainstream dogma NOW. But go back to the 2nd century, and the vast majority of Christians were Modalists.

It’s true that Christian theology was connected to Old Testament Judaism but Jesus expressly warned against it.

“1“No one sews a patch of unshrunk cloth on an old garment. Otherwise, the new piece will pull away from the old, making the tear worse. 22And no one pours new wine into old wineskins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wineskins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wineskins.

With the Gospel of Jesus we were to start over fresh, but his Jewish followers attempted to create a seamless transition.

 

[1213]

Back then they were called the people of the way. According to the gospel of Thomas the inner circle was told to go to James the Just after Jesus left them.

Back then there was group called disciples of Jesus, according to the Bible. For that people were baptized as Jesus taught.

Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you. Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Matt. 28:19-20

I recommend that to everyone also today.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

For from The Holy Spirit and through Jesus and to The Father are all things. To God, as one in being, be glory forever. Amen.

Behold Your Mother.

Baptizing is from the spirit through the flesh for the soul of the being in the Body of The Christ in all mankind. In logic, the spirit in the soul of the being through the flesh gets immortalized, transformed and glorified transfigured manifested by the Power of the Holy Spirit. We are created mortal and corrupt from the first spirit and riddled with internal temptations and soiled with choice failed in mortality. And we become Baptized sanctified from the Holy Spirit through the flesh for the soul from the Immaculate Conception and Virgin Birth of The Christ in our own immortal and incorruptible Christ as brothers and sisters of Jesus from His Birth to heaven for all mankind from the Cross where the blood and water flowed, "Ecce Mater tua," and from all of the wondrous mysteries of the Faith as our own personal epiphany, our own personal manifestation of God in our own soul. And we become again from immortal and incorruptible to glorified and transfigured, re-imaged in the Confirmed and re-Sanctified Will of the Creator God for The Father through death and resurrection because the sacraments from death to life are Baptism and Penance. Through Atonement in Confession for remittance of sins in hearing the Words of Absolution and forgiven in Penance and Sacrifice of The Host in Communion with Him we are re-Confirmed sanctified in the fulfilled Faith and Morality of The Christ in all mankind. Fulfilled in Faith and Morality is what would Jesus do in all cases of Faith and Morality just as the Will of The Creator God, The Word that becomes flesh, for The Father united as one in being together with the Father and The Son becoming again as glorified and transfigured into the image of The Creator God for God the Father.

To me, the logic of the Virgin Birth of The Christ is for all mankind on earth for our glorious assumption becoming glorified and transfigured as brothers and sisters of The Christ in all mankind.
"Ecce Mater tua," "Disciple, Behold Your Mother."
In logic, The Christ existed before creation was ever created was even created as The Word, The Eternal Priestly Authority and The Will of the Father in The Person of Jesus. Blood and water birth creates the Soul of the Being on earth and The Christ was Virgin Born on earth because Jesus in the Mind of God, The Christ preexisted and is Blood and Water ReBorn back to Heaven from the Cross, where the blood and water flowed for all mankind becoming glorified and transfigured from immortal and incorruptible as Baptized.

Peace always,
Stephen Andrew

 

[QuestioningMind]

Can a person not believe in the God of Abraham and be a Christian?

I don't believe in a Supreme Being, I am a Pantheist

My "God" is metaphysical rather than personal

I don't believe in this guy:

View attachment 96939

However: I believe that Jesus Christ is somehow real (but won't go into the details of that here, not right now)

I believe that he is at work in our world right now, and I find the stories about him in the Christian scriptures to be inspiring and wise

So I don't know whether or not I can call myself a Christian

On RF the Christian DIR is under the Abrahamic DIR so I don't think I can really be active in there if I don't believe in the God that most people who profess to be Christians believe in

If you're saying that you think Jesus was a cool dude who said a bunch of wise things and that his words still effect the world today, but you don't believe he died - at least for a long weekend - and was resurrected to pay for the sins of humanity then I don't see why you would call yourself a Christian.