Can all religions lead to God?

[YoursTrue]

In terms of knowing the truth, there are several approaches.

1. A person has to determine what tools are required to determine the truth....

That is a very good point. If the tool (or tools) and those that relate them (or add up) make sense to me, I will include them in my mental and spiritual arsenal and fortification.

 

[CG Didymus]

That's alright, but thanks for offering. You didn't really answer my question, though. Regardless of how many people can see them clearly, what are the divine characteristics, and how do you know that these characteristics are divine?

Maybe they can say that Baha'u'llah was a divine manifestation, probably Jesus, but they also make Adam, Abraham and Moses manifestations also. All of which were ordinary men with faults like everybody else.

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe in exactly how you said it... if the religion is working for you, keep doing it. When it stops working.... move on. But why would it stop working? For me it happened when I started questioning some of the beliefs held by the religion. At that point, I could no longer honestly say that I believed the teachings of that religion, or sect of a particular religion, were true. But ultimately, are any of them absolutely true?.../QUOTE]
It is also how we react to what we learn or hear, isn't that true? I think of the apostle Paul who 'heard' from Jesus in a remarkable way. So what I'm speaking about also is how a religion and its teachings reach our minds and hearts.

 

[YoursTrue]

Maybe they can say that Baha'u'llah was a divine manifestation, probably Jesus, but they also make Adam, Abraham and Moses manifestations also. All of which were ordinary men with faults like everybody else.

I hope you don't mind if I say something here. One of the differences, although you're right in that they were men, is that Adam (and Eve, but Adam in particular) was without sin until he ate from the fruit that God his Creator, told him not to. Thus everyone died because they inherited sin and death from Adam (except Jesus). Romans 5:17 - For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

 

[Trailblazer]

Those hardly seem like uniquely divine characteristics; lots of people have power and authority.

Not the kind Baha'u'llah had.

There are more divine characteristics but it is late here so if you want to know more you'll have to ask me tomorrow.

 

[izzy88]

Not the kind Baha'u'llah had.

There are more divine characteristics but it is late here so if you want to know more you'll have to ask me tomorrow.

All I'm asking is what specific, definitive things about Baha'u'llah make you believe he was a Messenger of God? It's a very simple question and it seems like you're just dancing around it.

I will give you an example. These are the main reasons why Christians believe that Jesus was divine:
- He claimed equality with God several times
- He fulfilled several prophesies about the Messiah
- He performed miracles without invoking the name of God, signifying that the power was coming from himself
- He rose from the dead

There's a whole lot more detail to explore in regards to each of these points, but the bottom line is that these are the main reasons why Christians believe Jesus was divine.

Now, what are the main reasons why you believe Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God?

 

[PearlSeeker]

How is that different from reality?

It depends. There are various philosophies and religions with non-theistic ultimate reality. Some examples of this difference between ultimate reality and "reality":

• Plato's world of Ideas (Forms) - sensible world
• Brahman - world of illusion (maya)

 

[WalterTrull]

But the way you are saying it seems to say that you know it all.

lHmmm... sorry 'bout that. I certainly don't.
I actually sincerely try to avoid that.
The reason I chose Walter (not my real name) as part of my forum name, was to remind me of Walter Mitty who dreamed of personally saving the world. Really, really wrong direction, but so easy to fall into. Just like those tasty apples. If you can't shoot it, at least put it on a leash.

 

[PearlSeeker]

A person needs to decide how they personally determine that something is true and from what angles they accept something as being reality. For example, this thing I determine based on my senses, this thing based on the logic I have developed, and this thing I have received from information passed down through human history.

What in passed down information is reliable? Also myths, folk tales and hearsay?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What in passed down information is reliable? Also myths, folk tales and hearsay?

Passed down information is a "part" of the process and not "the" process. Its use comes in the form of determining if there are others in history who attest to what created all of reality. For example, if one wants to assume that the Source of creation transmitted information to its creation that could be used to positively identify it, it would stand to reason that it would need to provide a method or transmission that makes logical sense and through investigation could be ascertained no matter what point in history one is searching. It would then make sense that the Source of creation that create a universe/reality has the power to make sure that information it wants to be present in any given time in history could be kept properly in the form that it originally chose.

For example, let's say that a person investigates information from all of the most ancient human societies on the planet and one finds that only one ancient group has a consistant claim of what created the universe/reality and said group makes this claim from the standpoint of national revelation that contains eye-witnesses who can be investigated. Let's say that this group has information that details the early history of human interaction/or the attempt of such that matches other ancient societies and gives the point when others diverged. This would be a good part of the equation of determining if there was an intersection in human history between the Source of creation and humanity. Those who were closer the claimed event would of course be the first step and the more they are in number the better.

Further, when speaking of myths, folk tales, and hearsay one would compare which information makes the most sense historically and logically. For example, a person can say, "I think the American independance day is based on myth or folklore." Yet, this begs the question of, "There is currently an established country called America/USA and it has existed non-stop from some point to the present. That would mean that some form of indendence took place for this to happen. Even if one disagrees with the history on the books or with the legality of such an event the existance of the country would mean that something in history happened. What was the event that brought about the origin or the nation?"

So, to find the answer the person would have to employ a number of research methods such as archeology and also the testimony of those who claimed to have witnessed the original event. If there is only one testimony or only one witness then one may have to take that with a grain of salt and they make take it on faith. Yet, if there is a bigger sample size and if the testimonies of hundreds, thousands, etc. converge and there are indentifiable witnesses who can answer historical facts such as where, when, what, why, and how then that is one of several tools one uses to determine the facts.

I hope that helps.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What in passed down information is reliable? Also myths, folk tales and hearsay?

Also, just to clarify a bit more. My complete statement was, "A person needs to decide how they personally determine that something is true and from what angles they accept something as being reality. For example, this thing I determine based on my senses, this thing based on the logic I have developed, and this thing I have received from information passed down through human history."

There are some people who their entire faith on information passed down to them but not based on any kind of logical research or any research using one of their physical senses. Thus, a person has to be honest on how they receive their information and how they come to conclusions.

 

[PearlSeeker]

Well, obviously if you follow a religion it's because you believe it's true. Why would you be following it if you didn't?
I don't understand why so many people on this forum take issue with someone who believes their religion is true - of course they do, it's their religion.

Are we all required to be agnostic?

I believe in exactly how you said it... if the religion is working for you, keep doing it. When it stops working.... move on. But why would it stop working? For me it happened when I started questioning some of the beliefs held by the religion. At that point, I could no longer honestly say that I believed the teachings of that religion, or sect of a particular religion, were true. But ultimately, are any of them absolutely true?

All religions are subject to human limitations and fallibility. I don't think we should turn agnostic because of it. We should just be more questioning, humble, respectful and open.

I also started questioning some beliefs of my Catholic Church but I didn't leave. For me it's still better to keep and deepen what remains valuable, important and working in my home religion and also get to know other religions/philosophies and their treasures.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, what are the main reasons why you believe Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God?

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about evidence and proof. These are the main reasons I believe that He was a Messenger of God (what Baha'is normally refer to as a Manifestation of God).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities, human and divine)
His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
The words He hath revealed is what He wrote: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

The fact that Baha'u'llah fulfilled all the Bible prophecies is like icing on the cake. That proves to me he was the Messiah and the return of Christ. Those prophecies and how they were fulfilled are delineated in the following book: William Sears, Thief in the Night

The fact that Baha'u'llah predicted many events that later came to pass is also icing on the cake. That proves to me that he could see into the future, so he had prophetic powers. Some of these predictions and how they came to pass are listed and delineated in this book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah

 

[Tim Kuepfer]

How would you know truth if it got up and smacked you in the face if you do not define it first?

A very interesting thought.
If men define truth, it could not be universal.
If there is a God (a mind, a reason, a logos) who defines truth. I believe that he would create us with rational minds capable of knowing the truth, and would make a way for us to find the truth.

unnatural things such as virgin births and resurrections do not happen.

If you say so...
I would contend that that worldview is more narrow than it should be.

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is a God (a mind, a reason, a logos) who defines truth. I believe that he would create us with rational minds capable of knowing the truth, and would make a way for us to find the truth.

I believe that God created us with rational minds capable of knowing the truth.
Wasn't Jesus a way for us to find the truth?

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Interesting claim




Not answering my question about agreeing to my claim which is similar to your claim:
If Allah is God, any religion removing His ability as Savior is also a false religion.

Note: We only talk about "If Allah is God", not about how Koran is written, Islam is implemented nor about Jesus, Muhammad.

Huh? Jesus said fidelity to Allah is paramount, and either was lying in the New Testament or is to be obeyed. If you believe the gospels were corrupted by Christians, please tell me exactly which verses and chapters so I can obey the prophet Isa better!

 

[CG Didymus]

I hope you don't mind if I say something here. One of the differences, although you're right in that they were men, is that Adam (and Eve, but Adam in particular) was without sin until he ate from the fruit that God his Creator, told him not to. Thus everyone died because they inherited sin and death from Adam (except Jesus). Romans 5:17 - For if, because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

I've been waiting and wanting to hear more from you. How is your study of the Baha'i Faith going? Which relates to this thing about Adam. For Christians, Adam disobeyed God and got cursed. Because of that, some or most Christians believe that all of us have inherited a sin nature and are separated from fellowship with God because of our sin. But, the good news, Jesus paid the penalty. All people have to do is accept him and they will receive the free gift of salvation. Paul says that our works can never earn us salvation. It is only through faith. James adds to that and says that real faith, saving faith, has to have good works, though, but it's not the works that saves us.

Baha'i have a much more positive explanation, but, for me, it is contradictory to that Christian view. They believe humans are born pure and without any taint of sin. Gaining spiritual qualities in this life will get us a better place in the next spiritual existences. And out spiritual growth continues. As far as I know, nobody is rejected from moving on into the spiritual world and "hell", to them, is the the distance from God a bad person will be in that spiritual world. But, I think, they can still improve their place and continue to grow. So, technically, there is no hell as believe by most Christians. And, there is no Satan. I'm fine with all of that, but is it true? Then how do they reconcile their beliefs with the traditional Christian beliefs?

I don't see that they necessarily reconcile them, but they reinterpret them. The Adam and Eve, and in fact, the whole Creation Story becomes symbolic and not literal. So it never really happened. For me, I would call it a myth. They don't use that term. They like saying it is true, just not literally true. The truth is in the spiritual message behind the story. They do the same with the resurrection of Jesus. It is symbolically true, but in no way is it possible to be literally true. People don't float off into the sky. People don't walk on water. People don't and can't do a lot of things that the Bible says that Jesus did... or the things Moses did, like parting the waters.... or that Joshua did by stopping the sun. But, it wasn't them, it was God, and of course God could do it. But Baha'is don't believe that God did do those things. So they find a "spiritual", metaphorical way of explain it. Which is fine and may be true, but it destroys most all of the traditional Christian beliefs.

I like your very nice and very genuine humble and spirit-filled attitude. Were you always like that or was it because of Jesus in your life? Too many of us argue religion and spiritual things with a little bit of anger and bitterness mixed in. I suppose some of us pretend it is "righteous" anger, but I don't think so. I think we're just plain old mad that other people act as if their beliefs are better than ours. Take care and I'd love for you to comment on anything I say. I respect you immensely.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe that God created us with rational minds capable of knowing the truth.
Wasn't Jesus a way for us to find the truth?

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Yet people believe in irrational things. Besides Christians believing a physical body can float off into the sky. Baha'is believe in an invisible, unknowable essence? So instead of being rational, this unknowable essence sends us messengers and expects us to take some of the things the messenger says on faith. Then those spiritual/religious people make fun of the atheists for not believing in this invisible, unknowable essence that can't be proven to exist? The atheists are probably being the most rational.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet people believe in irrational things. Besides Christians believing a physical body can float off into the sky. Baha'is believe in an invisible, unknowable essence? So instead of being rational, this unknowable essence sends us messengers and expects us to take some of the things the messenger says on faith. Then those spiritual/religious people make fun of the atheists for not believing in this invisible, unknowable essence that can't be proven to exist? The atheists are probably being the most rational.

I consider any beliefs that go against science to be irrational, but God being the unknowable essence does not go against science since it is not within the purview of science. However, I consider physical bodies rising from graves and floating up into the air to "meet their Lord" to be irrational because it is physically impossible, and what would eb the point? Why do you think Paul wrote this? Do you think he meant it to be taken literally? -- 1 Thessalonians 4:17, KJV: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ... Then we will be with the Lord forever."

We have to take what the Messenger says on faith because we cannot prove He got messages from God, nobody can prove that. Only the Messenger knows what happened to Him. and of course God also knows..

I never make fun of atheists. Since nobody can prove that God exists, it is just as rational to say that there is no God as it is to say God exists.

 

[stvdv]

Huh?

I might have skipped a few steps in my post. Obviously I was not clear. I give it another shot. Your line is a "Hypothetical", hence I got the thought "then all 5 below should be as true as your's (1)". That means, that unless we are 100% sure "XXX" has not the "ability as Savior". We better don't claim this (which you didn't). Because:

IF we claim and = "remove XXX's ability as Savior"
AND IF this is untrue
THEN this makes our religion "false"

1) If Jesus = God, any religion removing Jesus' ability as Savior is also a false religion.
2) If Allah = God, any religion removing Allah's ability as Savior is also a false religion.
3) If Shiva = God, any religion removing Shiva's ability as Savior is also a false religion.
4) If Buddha = God, any religion removing Buddha's ability as Savior is also a false religion.
5) If XXX = God, any religion removing XXX ability as Savior is also a false religion.

Jesus said fidelity to Allah is paramount

Seems we agree on this

so I can obey the prophet Isa better!

If you follow Jesus, what more can I tell you. Just keep following Jesus, and you will be fine.