Can an ethical life be lived without reference to the supernatural?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There have been those who have claimed that "without God, everything is permissible." But is this really the case? If there were no God, if there were no supernatural, would you feel yourself at liberty to cheat on your spouse, steal from your neighbour, refuse to pay your taxes, or spit in your friend's milkshake while he's in the washroom?

If you choose to answer, and answer in the affirmative, please try to explain why you think those things would be okay. And if you do not think they would be okay, in the absence of a God, why would they not?

 

[Enoch07]

There have been those who have claimed that "without God, everything is permissible." But is this really the case? If there were no God, if there were no supernatural, would you feel yourself at liberty to cheat on your spouse, steal from your neighbour, refuse to pay your taxes, or spit in your friend's milkshake while he's in the washroom?

If you choose to answer, and answer in the affirmative, please try to explain why you think those things would be okay. And if you do not think they would be okay, in the absence of a God, why would they not?

You can lead and ethical life without God, I suppose. But as far as passing the final judgment, there is little to no chance without Jesus. There are exceptions case in point practitioners of Judasim come to mind. But in any case the the final decision is ultimately up to God and God alone.

Even for Christian's who accept God/Christ and lead ethical/moral lives admittance into Heaven is not guranteed. As evidenced by this scriptire.

Isaiah 64:6

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

As far as everyone is concerned religious or not, Abrahamic or not. Even leading a good ethical/moral life where all you did is help people, do good, and do no harm at all, isn't good enough on it own merit.

 

[danieldemol]

You can lead and ethical life without God, I suppose. But as far as passing the final judgment, there is little to no chance without Jesus. There are exceptions case in point practitioners of Judasim come to mind. But in any case the the final decision is ultimately up to God and God alone.

Even for Christian's who accept God/Christ and lead ethical/moral lives admittance into Heaven is not guranteed. As evidenced by this scriptire.

Isaiah 64:6

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

As far as everyone is concerned religious or not, Abrahamic or not. Even leading a good ethical/moral life where all you did is help people, do good, and do no harm at all, isn't good enough on it own merit.

That scripture is a dishonest polemic against human righteousness in my opinion.

 

[dianaiad]

I believe that the argument is in humanism, or 'enlightened self interest." That is, ethics based upon what is known as 'the golden rule' need not refer to the supernatural at all, but merely natural consequences of personal choices and actions.

And personal honor, of course; if you don't want other people to be nasty to you, don't be nasty to them, and that generally solves the 'ethics' problem.

IMO, of course.

Mind you, I AM a True Believing Theist, but I'm not one because I think that humans cannot be ethical or moral with out a deity holding lightening strikes over them. I think belief in one helps, but reliable ethical behavior is prompted, not by fear of deity, but by personal conviction; it travels with the human whether belief in a deity waxes, wanes or changes.

JMO, of course.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God just isn't needed, and it's abit worrisome that some people seem to think they would act immorality without. A proper sense of being pro-social, something nature almost nearly always just gives to us because we are social animals, is all you to be moral and should be all you need to understand that people will generally behave morally.

 

[Twilight Hue]

There have been those who have claimed that "without God, everything is permissible." But is this really the case? If there were no God, if there were no supernatural, would you feel yourself at liberty to cheat on your spouse, steal from your neighbour, refuse to pay your taxes, or spit in your friend's milkshake while he's in the washroom?

If you choose to answer, and answer in the affirmative, please try to explain why you think those things would be okay. And if you do not think they would be okay, in the absence of a God, why would they not?

I don't know why people find this so difficult. We pretty much live a karmic existence by which our actions and thoughts dictate our experience while living as a human being.

If you're nasty you're probably going to have a nasty existence in kind. Likewise if you're good, your existence will probably be relatively peaceful and happy.

You certainly don't need a God in order to be ethical. Life comes with its own controls and limitations. Simple cause and effect.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you're nasty you're probably going to have a nasty existence in kind. Likewise if you're good, your existence will probably be relatively peaceful and happy.

Then how is it possible that Nazis could live or their lives after the war in peace? I also reckon most children who had nasty childhoods were not nasty themselves.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you choose to answer, and answer in the affirmative, please try to explain why you think those things would be okay. And if you do not think they would be okay, in the absence of a God, why would they not?

Anyone who values the inherent worth of other people doesn't need a god to behave ethically.

Anyone who is entirely motivated by self-interest but understands how mutual fairness and cooperation can be beneficial to them doesn't need a god to behave ethically.

 

[Audie]

There have been those who have claimed that "without God, everything is permissible." But is this really the case? If there were no God, if there were no supernatural, would you feel yourself at liberty to cheat on your spouse, steal from your neighbour, refuse to pay your taxes, or spit in your friend's milkshake while he's in the washroom?

If you choose to answer, and answer in the affirmative, please try to explain why you think those things would be okay. And if you do not think they would be okay, in the absence of a God, why would they not?

One guy and one freakin quote about
"permissible" and the goddies act like
it is received Truth from God, and thus the
perfect killer k.o. line to blast atheists

As Received God-Truth, it has to be so, and
no recitation of examples how it does not
actually work that way could possibly matter.

 

[Tumah]

Even for Christian's who accept God/Christ and lead ethical/moral lives admittance into Heaven is not guranteed. As evidenced by this scriptire.

Isaiah 64:6

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Your interpretation of the verse is almost the opposite of what it actually says. That verse is part of a passage of confession of guilt for having gone astray.

 

[Enoch07]

Your interpretation of the verse is almost the opposite of what it actually says. That verse is part of a passage of confession of guilt for having gone astray.

Nah when you read it in context it is extremely clear. That despite our best efforts we are still filth compared to the glory of the Lord!

Isaiah 64:4-9

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

9 Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

 

[Heyo]

The answer to that question is obvious. The deeper philosophical question is: "How do we know what is ethical/moral?". That is where believers and non-believer part.

 

[Tumah]

Nah when you read it in context it is extremely clear. That despite our best efforts we are still filth compared to the glory of the Lord!

Isaiah 64:4-9

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.

8 But now, O Lord, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

9 Be not wroth very sore, O Lord, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.

Now, I see that you were just playing around.

 

[George-ananda]

Can an ethical life be lived without reference to the supernatural?

As a believer in the supernatural, I would answer 'Yes' that reference to the supernatural is not essential to living an ethical life although brotherly love and compassion are essential.

 

[Kenny]

There have been those who have claimed that "without God, everything is permissible." But is this really the case? If there were no God, if there were no supernatural, would you feel yourself at liberty to cheat on your spouse, steal from your neighbour, refuse to pay your taxes, or spit in your friend's milkshake while he's in the washroom?

If you choose to answer, and answer in the affirmative, please try to explain why you think those things would be okay. And if you do not think they would be okay, in the absence of a God, why would they not?

I see a couple of problems with the format, those being:

1) Who determines what is ethical? (It can vary person to persons)
2) If someone believes they can steal, is it ethical for them? If someone refuses to pay taxes, couldn't it be because they believe taxes are unethical and thus their position ethical
3) Are there things that people may think is ethical but their God doesn't?

 

[ChristineM]

There have been those who have claimed that "without God, everything is permissible." But is this really the case? If there were no God, if there were no supernatural, would you feel yourself at liberty to cheat on your spouse, steal from your neighbour, refuse to pay your taxes, or spit in your friend's milkshake while he's in the washroom?

If you choose to answer, and answer in the affirmative, please try to explain why you think those things would be okay. And if you do not think they would be okay, in the absence of a God, why would they not?

People are people and generally decent, caring and moral whether they believe in gods or not.

Morality is not a religious trait although many religious people like to claim it as their own. Morality is a human and many other animals trait, and has been since long before religion was invented. In fact human morality seems to have been a driver in the creation of religions.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I see a couple of problems with the format, those being:

1) Who determines what is ethical? (It can vary person to persons)
2) If someone believes they can steal, is it ethical for them? If someone refuses to pay taxes, couldn't it be because they believe taxes are unethical and thus their position ethical
3) Are there things that people may think is ethical but their God doesn't?

Very good! And perhaps what is ethical may vary from situation to situation, as well. Consider flooded downtown New Orleans after hurricane Katrina. What if a man is stranded with his daughter, who has serious diabetes, and desperately needs insulin. The drug store owner, being better off, has closed up and escaped. There's nobody around to help. What should he consider himself, in this situation, justified in doing? Notice I didn't say "ethical" in doing, merely justified.

I can't answer for God, obviously, and neither can you, though our reasons are radically different. But as always, I contend that if there were a deity such as you seem to propose, there is no reason that any of us should not know what that deity needs us to know. Again, notice that doesn't interfere with "free will." Knowing, and deciding to act on that knowledge, are quite different things.

 

[Sunstone]

Maybe the real question is what sort of twisted, perverse thinking is required before you are able to genuinely believe an ethical life cannot be lived without reference to the supernatural?

 

[Sunstone]

Anyone who values the inherent worth of other people doesn't need a god to behave ethically.

Anyone who is entirely motivated by self-interest but understands how mutual fairness and cooperation can be beneficial to them doesn't need a god to behave ethically.

Agreed. But as an aside: Anyone who is entirely motivated by self-interest most likely suffers from some one or another mental disorder, or they read Ayn Rand at 14 and never grew up.

 

[Terese]

An ethical life can be lived still with a neutral relationship with God