I dont care what individuals believe, i care when they force their views on others, ie in science, politics and the class room.
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Can Atheists and Theists ever acknowledge each other.
- Thread starter Intertia
- Start date
Draka
Wonder Woman
No, I'm not a Christian. I do not believe in that specific deity concept. I believe in a different concept of deity. I still believe in a concept of deity though. In god/gods/deity/source. Just not the same way you do. That's just it though. The word "theist" means a person whom has a belief in a concept of deity. It doesn't mean "Christian" or "one of Abrahamic faith" or any of the like. Which is why, you will find, I am right. Most theists actually have no issue with scientific fact. Most theists do not hold to the claims of the bible. Because...most theists in the world are not Christian. We come in many flavors and varieties.
So, in the end, it is not just "atheists vs theists" in this imagined battle over science and history. It is simply science and history, facts and evidence, vs those who hold to a literal interpretation of the bible. And that simply is not most theists. Which puts a lot of atheists and theists on the very same side.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
I don't care how you define the word theist. I care a lot more about what defines you.
Thus, as a theist, you find it necessary to strive against those who believe in Yahweh, the God of Abraham, and you strive against those who hold to a literal and historical interpretation of the Bible, even though you cannot submit any evidence showing the Bible to be false? I'm a bit curious, what literal interpretation of the Bible seems to bother you the most? Is it the flood account? Is it that so many believers actually deny evolution, even though it may be the case that they do so mistakenly? What is it that bothers you the most about Christians?
Draka
Wonder Woman
I don't find it necessary to "strive against" Christians, nor would I say that the vast majority of them bother me at all. Many of my friends and family are Christians. In fact, my mother's side of the family is quite Catholic. The bible doesn't "bother" me either, it just doesn't hold any truth for me. To each their own in what they decide to believe. The only time problems arise is when people cling to metaphor and allegory rather than accept the scientific evidence laid out before them. It's called denial. If some people want to wallow in it, that's their business, fine, but when they insist on trying to make others wallow in it as well by trying to enforce their faith-driven ignoring of the facts of reality into schools and so forth, that's when it becomes a problem.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Well denying evolution is certainly worrying, it bothers many people. It demonstrates that believers will attack scence without feeling any need to inform themselves about what they are attacking - nor any need to make sure that their ojections are truthful.
It reduces the creationist to a propogandist, and is a tragedy.
In the example of you, you know what evolution really means to biologists (change over time) and you also know it is true. Unfortunately your faith makes you feel obliged to pretend (transparently) that you do not know what evoution means and that it is not true.
And sure, that you must pretend to be ignorant of something that you are not ignorant of is a concern.
What people see is a person who has been told many times what evolutuon really means, who for faith reasons must perpetually maintain the pretence that you do not.
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Well, I'm a bit late it the party, but here's my 0.02.
Not only do I think it's possible, I think it is more common than people realize. I would like to think people are more rational and understanding. That most have better things to do than foam at the mouth in regards to those who think differently than them.
To use me as an example, I'm a theistic Hindu. However, a disproportionately high amount of my friends are atheists. The vast majority don't care that I'm a theist, just like I don't care that they are non-theist.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Which particular scientific evidence are you referring to exactly, that people are not accepting? Isn't it possible that metaphors and allegories are capable of divulging truth and understanding? Or am I missing something.
I had asked, "what literal interpretation of the Bible seems to bother you the most?"
Let's start there.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
There you go again. I know very well what evolution means. And I very well know the processes promoted by the theory of evolution. And I will even admit that many of those processes I have seen at work. I have studied evolution. I have never denied evolution as being true. Quite honestly, I do not have any evidence to put forth to support a statement that evolution is nonfactual. And, I don't have the evidence to suggest that evolution is factual. I am somewhat agnostic when it comes to evolution, however I lean towards the side of evolution, but only because it seems logical to me, as I have stated quite often in this thread. You saying that I deny it is just a show of blatant disrespect for my stated position.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
How often do you discuss your religion with your atheist friends?
It is my guess, not very often. I don't mean to make any assumptions about you. I guess I'm really talking about me. I don't discuss my faith with atheist friends. I believe I have ventured into that territory, and because it didn't look too promising, I bailed.
I really only speak of my faith with my friends who have faith.
It is my perception that when you start talking religion to an atheist, they become very defensive, like your judging them. Maybe they're right. Maybe I am.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Can Atheists and Theists ever acknowledge each other?
Yes, they both must acknowledge one another for peaceful co-existence.
The atheists are fine people if they adhere to reason as far as the reason should go reasonably, when they leave reason, they leave the only merit they chose for themselves.
The theists are honorable people, they should accept reality given to them by Revelation, and reality is not without reason and wisdom, it is never mythical.
Both sides should respect one another, even if they differ.
Regards
Yes, they both must acknowledge one another for peaceful co-existence.
The atheists are fine people if they adhere to reason as far as the reason should go reasonably, when they leave reason, they leave the only merit they chose for themselves.
The theists are honorable people, they should accept reality given to them by Revelation, and reality is not without reason and wisdom, it is never mythical.
Both sides should respect one another, even if they differ.
Regards
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
Yes you have. But why not just state thst you accept evolution if you are telljng the truth?
No it is a direct reposnse to your repeated denials of evolution
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Honestly, I could accept evolution if I should see some compelling evidence supporting it. But really, all I see is claim upon claim, but no real compelling evidence.
So no, I'm not going to accept something as being true just because it seems logical to me. I need more than that to believe that something is true.
And there you go again, misrepresenting the truth, and once again stating that I am repeatedly denying evolution. Suite yourself. Believe what you will. It is of no consequence to me.
Bunyip
pro scapegoat
You seem unaware of how dishonest you make yourself appear. You have just posted several comments stating that you have never denied evolution, and then deny evolution in this post.
You admit to not accepting evolution (denying it) and state that you have never denied it in the next sentence.
So you deny evolution all the time, but have never denied evolution - and then wonder why people question your honesty.
I haven't read all 14 pages, so forgive me if this view has already been expressed.
I don't care what theists believe behind closed doors. I care very much when theists try to impose their opinions on the world. So theists need to stop:
- blocking research
- encouraging corporal punishment
- blocking abortion rights
- advocating for blasphemy laws
- punishing apostates
- religious-based bigotry towards minorities
- blackmailing those in need of aid
- indoctrinating children
And so on... then I'll have no problem with theists
I don't care what theists believe behind closed doors. I care very much when theists try to impose their opinions on the world. So theists need to stop:
- blocking research
- encouraging corporal punishment
- blocking abortion rights
- advocating for blasphemy laws
- punishing apostates
- religious-based bigotry towards minorities
- blackmailing those in need of aid
- indoctrinating children
And so on... then I'll have no problem with theists
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
It is my perception that differences in morals and beliefs usually end in conflict, as all of these discussions and debates prove, as well the real world. And where there is common ground, there is seldom any conflict.
I can however accept anything that is forced upon me which I have no power to resist, and so it is certainly possible to embrace totalitarianism when you are powerless to resist it.
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Sonofason
Well-Known Member
- I don't mind research, but don't expect me to pay for it.
- I don't care what you do with your criminals. Some people deserve to die. But if you want to show compassion on such persons, I can only commend you for it.
- It is a disgrace to murder innocent unborn human children. It's on your head, not mine. Do whatever you think is right. I'll let God be your judge.
- stop blaspheming our God, and we wont need blasphemy laws. If you will not respect our beliefs, we will do what we can to force you to respect our beliefs. Like it or not. I don't really care.
- There are so many apostates, I wouldn't know where to start. Is this really an issue. It certainly has nothing to do with me.
- If you commit a crime, you lose my respect. If your race is more inclined to commit more crime, that race has lost my respect. If a particular race or culture is seemingly more inclined to cut off people's heads, then that race has lost my respect. I will discriminate against whom I choose to discriminate against. The ball is in their court. But now the respect must be earned. And there are people of all races who have individually earned my respect.
- Why would someone blackmail a person in need of help?
- I will teach children what I choose to teach children. It's not up to you or anyone else. I don't care what you call it. That is what societies do. They indoctrinate children. And that is what I will continue to do.
Sorry, you don't get everything you want, nor should you. My needs are not your needs. Please don't assume as much.
I discuss religion with my atheist friends all the time. I think we have enough respect for one another to not go into bashing or straw-man territory. If we limit our circle of friends to only theists, I think that would be just as narrow minded and putting-head-in-sand-like as atheists who are only friends with atheists.
Draka
Wonder Woman
That "people" are not accepting? That causes problems? Evolution is an obvious one, but you know that. The pushing of teaching ID and Creation into schools and the restricting of teaching evolution as the science it is is all damaging. There are YECs that are adamantly pushing their nonsense all the time. Oh, and there's the ridiculous "Creation Museum" that actually teaches children that the world existed as was described in a literal interpretation of Genesis.
I actually believe myth can divulge a lot of deeper understanding of the world. Allegory and metaphors speak to things unseen within all of us. The problem is when people take these things to be more literal and speak to physical real world actualities instead of the underlying human condition of being.
You did, and I had said that the bible doesn't really bother me. Now, when taken literally, just about any mythology can be troublesome though. Same goes with Christian myth. When taken on face value, it is a very violent, unscientific, gruesome, vengeful mythology. Especially the OT. The NT is not quite so bad in those departments, but still a part of the mythos to be taken as a whole. Now, many myths have those qualities to them, but when analyzed for what they are and searched for the messages contained rather than taken literally then lessons are still to be garnered. The issue is taking such a myth literally in the first place. It simply cannot and was never meant to work. It will always cause problems and conflicts with reality in those whom attempt to do so.
Scott C.
Just one guy
Atheists are evil. Believers are stupid. As long as these remain the prevailing view of one side towards the other, both will continue to be offended and defensive.
Honestly, I can have and have had some pretty civil discussion about science with theists, atheists, and agnostics. The majority of the students at my high school (back in the dark ages) were Christians and, at the time, I was not a Christian. We did not have any arguments about creation and evolution in the class or even any debates. The teachers gave the information, we wrote it down, read about about it, studied it and took tests on it. When we reached the chapters on various forms of evolution, it was the same.
Science is about finding out about things by study, experiements (sometimes even centuries of experiments, and eventually "Natural Law". It is very involved. True scientists spend their days experimenting, excavating, studying, observing, etc and will record the data.
Religion is about the spirit, about living better lives, about worshiping God in a lot of religions.
They do different things, science and religion. They are not at odds with each other, they are totally unrelated! Some scientists even have a religion!
The thing is that scientist does not necessarily mean atheist and atheists are not always going to be scientists. So throwing science into the discussion makes no sense to me.
Conclusion. I am very much a theist and I very much enjoy all kinds of different types of science. And I have/had friends who were/are theists, atheists, and agnostics and maybe even ignostics. We got along just fine.
Science is about finding out about things by study, experiements (sometimes even centuries of experiments, and eventually "Natural Law". It is very involved. True scientists spend their days experimenting, excavating, studying, observing, etc and will record the data.
Religion is about the spirit, about living better lives, about worshiping God in a lot of religions.
They do different things, science and religion. They are not at odds with each other, they are totally unrelated! Some scientists even have a religion!
The thing is that scientist does not necessarily mean atheist and atheists are not always going to be scientists. So throwing science into the discussion makes no sense to me.
Conclusion. I am very much a theist and I very much enjoy all kinds of different types of science. And I have/had friends who were/are theists, atheists, and agnostics and maybe even ignostics. We got along just fine.
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