Can Atheists Imagine?

[Darkness]

Is there any way I can be a Christian, a Judaist, and a Muslim? That way I can be safe from all the major hells. Maybe I better throw in Invisible Pink Unicorn worship.

 

[Kungfuzed]

Remember the old Beatles song, Imagine?

Imagine there's no heaven, it isn't hard to do. No hell below us, and no religion too.

OK, I want to reverse this song for Atheists to consider, just for a moment, that there just might be be a heaven and hell in an after life.

All right, moments over now. That was not so bad was it? Now that you imagined for a moment, if your a true Atheist, you rejected this thought for a reason. Perhaps the reason is, Heaven and Hell cannot be proven. Not believing in something that cannot be proven really has more merit than believing in something that cannot be proved. This makes more sense to the analytical mind.

I really believe Atheists are the most strong willed people because they are not afraid of things that cannot be proven. That makes alot of sense.

OK, you have bared with me this far, I want you to imagine one more thing. Go back in time 600 years ago. People thought the world was flat. If you lived in that time with the same mindset you have today, you cannot deny that you would have believed the world was flat because it could not be proven the world was round at that time.

That said, one of us is wrong now. I may be wrong about heaven and hell's existence.

Let's say I am wrong about all of this. When I die, I won't know I am wrong about this.

Let's say that just perhaps I am right about Heaven and Hell. I am going to a better place.

If you are right that there is no after life, you won't know your right, but if your wrong about this, you will have an eternity to think about your decision.

Actually Eratosthenes not only discovered the earth was round but was also able to calculate the circumference of the earth and that was around 200BC. Why they still believed the world was flat in 1400AD is beyond me. I know what you mean though, you were just using that as an example.

If there is a God, and there is no hell, then I have nothing to fear. If there is no God and no heaven I still have nothing to fear. If there is a God and there is a hell (the biblical kind), I wouldn't want anything to do with a God that would send people to hell. Basically, if you want to convert an Atheist, fear is the last thing you should use. There needs to be a real world application for God. I'm not going to live for the sake of the afterlife when I already have heaven right here and now. What will God do for me in this life that I can't do for myself?

 

[Willamena]

Is there any way I can be a Christian, a Judaist, and a Muslim? That way I can be safe from all the major hells. Maybe I better throw in Invisible Pink Unicorn worship.

Sure! Be a mystic.

 

[MaddLlama]

Sure! Be a mystic.

I thought they were called "eclectics"

 

[fantome profane]

Remember the old Beatles song, Imagine?

Imagine there's no heaven, it isn't hard to do. No hell below us, and no religion too.

OK, I want to reverse this song for Atheists to consider, just for a moment, that there just might be be a heaven and hell in an after life.

All right, moments over now. That was not so bad was it? Now that you imagined for a moment, if your a true Atheist, you rejected this thought for a reason. Perhaps the reason is, Heaven and Hell cannot be proven. Not believing in something that cannot be proven really has more merit than believing in something that cannot be proved. This makes more sense to the analytical mind.

I really believe Atheists are the most strong willed people because they are not afraid of things that cannot be proven. That makes alot of sense.

OK, you have bared with me this far, I want you to imagine one more thing. Go back in time 600 years ago. People thought the world was flat. If you lived in that time with the same mindset you have today, you cannot deny that you would have believed the world was flat because it could not be proven the world was round at that time.

That said, one of us is wrong now. I may be wrong about heaven and hell's existence.

Let's say I am wrong about all of this. When I die, I won't know I am wrong about this.

Let's say that just perhaps I am right about Heaven and Hell. I am going to a better place.

If you are right that there is no after life, you won't know your right, but if your wrong about this, you will have an eternity to think about your decision.

Ok, not a problem for me. I am imagining it. There are so many ideas about heaven (and hell) and it is quite a fertile ground for the imagination. I can picture angels and clouds, I can picture a garden paradise, I can picture great beautiful cities of gold. I can imagine a heaven that lets everybody in; I can imagine a heaven that is quite limited. I can imagine a heaven in which all of our questions are answered and I can imagine a heaven in which all we do is bow before the magnificence of “God”. I can imagine a heaven in which we continue to grow, learn and have adventures, and I can imagine a heaven in which all our struggles are over. I can also imagine hell as a place of infinite physical, emotional and spiritual agony.

I think I have quite an active imagination, I can imagine all kinds of things, most of which I can’t discuss here. But I think what you are asking of us for is not just our imagination, but our assessment of the probability. I want you to understand that although I am fully capable of imagining what you suggest, I consider the probability of it actually being true to be so incredibly small that even the enormity of consequence of eternal bliss/torment is not enough to concern me. In my assessment the probability of this being true is so low it is simply not possible for me to believe that it is true, even though I can still imagine.

If you don’t understand what I am saying I would suggest that you peruse the thread we had a while ago on Pascal's Wager, and in particular post #76 where I explain the concept of “Fantôme’s Wager”. If you reject “Fantôme’s Wager” then you should be able to understand why people reject Pascal’s Wager. (If you accept “Fantôme’s Wager” please post a picture)

 

[Reverend Rick]

Actually Eratosthenes not only discovered the earth was round but was also able to calculate the circumference of the earth and that was around 200BC. Why they still believed the world was flat in 1400AD is beyond me. I know what you mean though, you were just using that as an example.

If there is a God, and there is no hell, then I have nothing to fear. If there is no God and no heaven I still have nothing to fear. If there is a God and there is a hell (the biblical kind), I wouldn't want anything to do with a God that would send people to hell. Basically, if you want to convert an Atheist, fear is the last thing you should use. There needs to be a real world application for God. I'm not going to live for the sake of the afterlife when I already have heaven right here and now. What will God do for me in this life that I can't do for myself?

This life you live right now is but on tiny grain of sand on a beach of potential eternity.

 

[Quagmire]

I have to admit; it would take more imagination than I have to see any connection between what's written in the bible and what usually passes for christianity today.

 

[Mike182]

i see religion as being a personal growth, i would rather base my religious choice on what i can use to better myself morally and spiritually than take bets on what might be or might not be right or wrong.

 

[Reverend Rick]

i see religion as being a personal growth, i would rather base my religious choice on what i can use to better myself morally and spiritually than take bets on what might be or might not be right or wrong.

Mike, I can accept that and it fulfills a need you have. I understand Agnostics completely and believe many Atheist here are really Agnostic. But to say you need no nourishment for the soul at all and are not even searching for something fulfilling or any proof because there is none......

 

[rojse]

Perhaps we can find norishment for the soul outside of religion. Charity work, for example, does not need to be done through a religious group. You can get that warm, fuzzy feeling of doing good will for someone else without religion involved.

Perhaps there are forfilling roles for us to play that do not involve religion, either. I, for example, would find exploring another planet spiritually forfilling, and there is no religion involved there, either.

 

[Mike182]

Mike, I can accept that and it fulfills a need you have. I understand Agnostics completely and believe many Atheist here are really Agnostic. But to say you need no nourishment for the soul at all and are not even searching for something fulfilling or any proof because there is none......

i don't think i agree with you. in my opinion, people stretch out and grow spiritually in different ways - atheists can still grow spiritually through love and friendship. i certainly would not say that atheists are spiritually malnourished, just that they express it differently.

 

[Reverend Rick]

If I was an atheist, I sure would not participate in a religious forum. It would never even cross my mind. This is one reason I believe many Atheists here are really Agnostic and do not realize it.

 

[Gentoo]

If I was an atheist, I sure would not participate in a religious forum. It would never even cross my mind. This is one reason I believe many Atheists here are really Agnostic and do not realize it.

Some atheists like to talk about religion and their stance on it, you know, that free exchange of ideas thing. Not every atheist is a militant one.

 

[Mike182]

If I was an atheist, I sure would not participate in a religious forum. It would never even cross my mind. This is one reason I believe many Atheists here are really Agnostic and do not realize it.

that's a bit baseless isn't it? the social, psychological and anthropomorphic studies of religion do not necessitate the student to be a believer. or even just an interest in what other people believe. there are plenty of reasons why an atheist would want to engage with religious communities.

 

[rojse]

Personally, I am here not to learn about religion, but the psychology and mechanics of religion, and how aetheiests and religious people see the world from a different, moral perspective.

 

[The Seeker]

I can imagine heaven and hell, but I simply think that the chance of them existing is close to zero. What I can't imagine is a God that would send me to Hell simply because I didn't believe in a book that was written 2,000 years ago. I could be wrong, but I'll take my chances.

If I was an atheist, I sure would not participate in a religious forum. It would never even cross my mind. This is one reason I believe many Atheists here are really Agnostic and do not realize it.

Never say never. I'm agnostic and decided to join RF in order to learn about other religions and find out why people believe in God among other things. I'm sure there are atheists here that participate for similar reasons.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I can imagine heaven and hell, but I simply think that the chance of them existing is close to zero. What I can't imagine is a God that would send me to Hell simply because I didn't believe in a book that was written 2,000 years ago. I could be wrong, but I'll take my chances.



Never say never. I'm agnostic and decided to join RF in order to learn about other religions and find out why people believe in God among other things. I'm sure there are atheists here that participate for similar reasons.

You make perfect sense to me.

 

[Nanda]

I object to this entire thread, as it's foundation is built on a fallacy!

John Lennon wrote "Imagine" after The Beatles split up, silly. :flirt:

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Reverend Rick,

I can imagine heaven and hell, I think, as well as anyone can. I think an atheist can imagine heaven and hell, which atheists don't believe in, just as well as a Christian can imagine a pantheon of many gods, which Christians don't believe in.

What you suggest in your OP is essentially what is laid out in Pascal's famous "wager". As fantome profane has pointed out, the reasoning behind this wager is seriously flawed. First and foremost, one could imagine an infinite number of gods/spirits/demons/ghosts/fairies/supernatural beings/aliens etc. that will reward us for worshipping them but punish us if we don't. The same reasoning behind Pascal's wager, applied to all these innumerable "possible" beings, would force us to believe in ALL of them, just to be on the safe side. But of course this leads to absurdity.

Does that make sense?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

First and foremost, one could imagine an infinite number of gods/spirits/demons/ghosts/fairies/supernatural beings/aliens etc. that will reward us for worshipping them but punish us if we don't. The same reasoning behind Pascal's wager, applied to all these innumerable "possible" beings, would force us to believe in ALL of them, just to be on the safe side.

More seriously, one can easily imagine a jealous God that would respond with supernatural malevolence to some dumb schmuck who chose to worship the wrong deity in the hopes of winning some simple-minded wager.