Can God Be Evident?

[robtex]

God was working in my life before I believed he existed. I just did recognize it until I knew what to look for.

You knew what to look for? Throw us a bone...what does one look for? How did you make that connection?

I am lost on this thread and tried to think about it and want to ask...what the parameters of evidence are? I am thinking they that something is evident when it can be percieved by any of the 5 senses we have:

1) sight
2) smell
3) taste
4) touch
5) hearing

Am I on the right tract or wrong tract?

 

[Dadball]

QUOTE]You knew what to look for? Throw us a bone...what does one look for? How did you make that connection? [/QUOTE]


I'll give you an example.



Before I became a Christian.



I could never understand forgiveness. How could you forgive someone who hurt you or your family. It was a big stumbling block for me. I was sued by a former employee on behalf of the Fed Gov for the tune of $300 Million. Long story short, the case was dismissed, and the Fed Judge ruled that I specifically had acted in the best interest of the Gov. 2 years of legal wrangling, pleading, depositions and the like, and the Judge said the same thing I had said 2 years ago. I wanted blood. It took time away from my family. It put doubt in how I would be able make living for 2 years. My family and I were in suspended animation for 2 years. Your damn right I wanted blood. I wanted revenge (I'm Italian). Revenge (civil law suit) was my narrowly focus obsession. I was obsessed with it. It consumed me like a cancer. My daughter at the time was in pre-school at a local church. One day I had to pick her up from school, which was rare, and I ran into the pastor. I had to wait, and we chat for a bit. I could not wait to leave. Then he starts to tell me about forgiveness. He says that we are doing more than forgiving others, but it is releasing the anger, hate and hurt in us. He said that if we didn't we it devour us from the inside. Then he said that "Why let someone have space in your head that doesn't pay rent?" I was waiting for the Jesus says "this" and the Jesus said "that", but my daughter was free and we left. What he said made sense. This former employee was now consuming my life, because I was the one letting him. I was the one now that hurting my family. How could I forgive myself for doing exactly what he did to us? I forgave him, and I dropped everything. Cost me some money. I knew this person had other factors that played in to his decisions, and instead black balling him from an industry I knew(which was a recommendation), I recommended him for other employment, and allowed him to use me as a reference. I had peace of mind.



Now that I believe, and I can see that it was God working in my life. What were the chances of me having to pick my daughter up during the work day, her being late from class and me meeting and having a polite non descript conversation with someone I had little respect for his views. A conversation that impacts me today. It could have been a coincidence. To me a coincidence is finding $20 when you loose $20. To see God's hand is to find $20 when you need the $20.

It works for me, and it may not work for you, that's between you and your God.

 

[cardero]

robtex writes: You knew what to look for? Throw us a bone...what does one look for? How did you make that connection?

I'll do you one better, I will throw you the whole skeleton.

How To Talk with GOD

• The conversations will start out with GOD and you. Once you get comfortable with this relationship, you will find yourself addressing topics that apply to almost everyone.
• Every time you talk with GOD is always better than the last. (It also gets easier.)
• One thing you will learn after a few conversations is that GOD never shuts up. If this gets to be too overwhelming for you, keep a notebook or tape recorder around and make notes so you do not forget topics or the essence of any conversation.
• GOD manifests him/herself differently in different ways to different people. You will find that when talking with GOD, GOD will speak in a style that is familiar and friendly. You may think that GOD is talking to you in GOD's manner but GOD's truths are his/her own and will manifest through your personality.
• Pay attention to all forms of stimuli: dreams, meditations, and conversations with other people, music, movies, and books – any form of input that can be detected through ALL of your senses. This is GOD's way of paging you – of bringing something to the attention of your consciousness. There are no coincidences. If a message is meant to be received, it will get to you.
• The best time to talk with GOD is when you are alone.
• If you are writing down your conversations, DO NOT stop to think about what you are writing. Always read the dialogue after you are finished. It will feel as if you are reading it for the first time. DO NOT edit or censor your questions and answers. Keep an open mind. Whatever comes to you later can always be added another time.
• If you must play any background music during your transcripts (and if you have the means), may I suggest you play Mozart. GOD likes Mozart. Go figure.
• DO NOT be upset or disappointed with any of the answers you receive. As a human being, some answers may surprise or shock you. This is GOD helping you to UNDERSTAND. It would also be helpful to shed your worldly views and past patterns, and bring a new UNDERSTANDING to these conversations.
• DON'T expect that the same UNDERSTANDING given to you will also be given to another person. DO NOT go into this thinking you can change the viewpoints of everyone in the world. First and foremost, you are only helping to bring enlightenment to yourself. If you glean anything from anyone else's conversation, consider it a blessing to you. DO NOT exploit or force your viewpoints on another fellow being who is not ready for this kind of UNDERSTANDING. Remember, everyone is on the correct path he or she should be on.
• Keep in mind that GOD is not "The Answer Man/Woman." If GOD's answers are vague and unclear, it is because you may not be ready to receive the answers. You may need a little more UNDERSTANDING in some areas of your life. It is not because GOD doesn't know the answer or wants to confuse you; it is because GOD would rather see you come to the joy of realizing the answer for yourself. GOD will always lead you to the door, but it is up to you to go through it.
• To derive the maximum benefits from your talks with GOD, always remember where you came from and where you are now. Try to leave your ego out of the conversation. Don't be afraid to look back once in a while for a better UNDERSTANDING. In time, you will never have to look back again.
• Remember, anyone can talk with GOD; GOD has always been talking with you.
• Do not make excuses for not talking with GOD; GOD doesn't buy any of them. Remember, any conversation is a two-way street. You do have the time (more than you think!) that GOD has provided for us. But, if you do not have the time to actually document or write down the moments of the conversation, GOD will UNDERSTAND.
• If you are having trouble getting started, start by talking with GOD about the weather or TV shows. Even ask GOD how to make a good cup of tea. Focus on your question. Make sure this is exactly what you want to ask GOD. Type or write out your results as if you were having a regular conversation with anyone else. This is where it begins for anybody. Do not humble yourself or feel intimidated. You will find out that GOD is easy to talk with and is just as friendly (probably more so) than anyone you know.

 

[Yerda]

Or perhaps a better response would have been: the same type of evidence that would convince you of Thor's existence.

I'm curious, Mr. Spinkles, has anyone answered that question? I have seen you pose it, or similar, a couple of times.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

When I told this story to my 9yo grandson he said "thats impossible!" (Israels 6 day War.)
Even a nine year old recognizes that fledgling country could not defeat so great a foe.

[ - edited upon request to remove expressions of contempt - ]

Which quote or quotes did you cherry-pick to explain the many losses of the Jewish people?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I am lost on this thread and tried to think about it and want to ask...what the parameters of evidence are? I am thinking they that something is evident when it can be percieved by any of the 5 senses we have:

1) sight
2) smell
3) taste
4) touch
5) hearing

Am I on the right tract or wrong tract?

Robtex -
I think that this is at the core of the problem. Many (like myself) are willing to accept only empirical evidence (the five senses you listed). Some have had this very type of experience (martha comes to mind here). Others, are led to believe by virtue of blind faith, or their belief in a Holy Text (i.e. the Bible, the Quran, etc.).

Personally, I have no problem with anyone believing whatever they choose. Actually, I envy those that have the ability to believe in revealed faith - I just don't share it. I do get heartburn from those that believe one thing, but base their argument for their beliefs in a different medium. For example, when I see a Theist argue that his belief in God is predicated on (or proven by) science, I find it indefensible and rather humorous. On the opposite side of the coin, oddly, you just don't see to many Atheists arguing that God doesn't exist "because the Anti-Bible tells me so".

TVOR

 

[Dadball]

On the opposite side of the coin, oddly, you just don't see to many Atheists arguing that God doesn't exist "because the Anti-Bible tells me so".

Good quote

 

[cardero]

The Voice Of Reason writes: I think that this is at the core of the problem. Many (like myself) are willing to accept only empirical evidence (the five senses you listed). Some have had this very type of experience (martha comes to mind here). Others, are led to believe by virtue of blind faith, or their belief in a Holy Text (i.e. the Bible, the Quran, etc.).

I think one of the biggest problems many people have of not recognizing GOD in their own lives is that they do not “listen”. And when I mention “listen” I mean with any way that you can perceive and receive input. Some people do not think they have to listen (for example the belief that GOD does not personally interact with us or that if they want to K(NOW) about GOD they have a book, a place or another person to explain GOD to them), or some people simply do not listen (missed messages, BEing unaware of their surroundings) and some people flat out refuse to listen (stubbornness, pride and ego are usually the causes of this). The plain TRUTH about all of these reasons is that they are ALL acceptable to GOD.

 

[cardero]

Dadball writes: Now that I believe, and I can see that it was God working in my life.

Remember, anyone can talk with GOD; GOD has always been talking with you.

Dadball writes: What were the chances of me having to pick my daughter up during the work day, her being late from class and me meeting and having a polite non descript conversation with someone I had little respect for his views. A conversation that impacts me today. It could have been a coincidence. To me a coincidence is finding $20 when you loose $20. To see God's hand is to find $20 when you need the $20.

Pay attention to all forms of stimuli: dreams, meditations, and conversations with other people, music, movies, and books – any form of input that can be detected through ALL of your senses. This is GOD's way of paging you – of bringing something to the attention of your consciousness. There are no coincidences. If a message is meant to be received, it will get to you.

Dadball writes: It works for me, and it may not work for you, that's between you and your God.

GOD manifests him/herself differently in different ways to different people. You will find that when talking with GOD, GOD will speak in a style that is familiar and friendly. You may think that GOD is talking to you in GOD's manner but GOD's truths are his/her own and will manifest through your personality.

 

[HelpMe]

Or perhaps a better response would have been: the same type of evidence that would convince you of Thor's existence.

I'm curious, Mr. Spinkles, has anyone answered that question? I have seen you pose it, or similar, a couple of times.

how many people claim to have an existing relationship with thor?how many churches does thor have?how many people thank thor?how long has thor lasted in comparison to other roman or greek mythologies?how many people hold thors inspired religeous book as infallible?let's say for arguments sake that both [yhwh] and thor are fake, how does one explain the differences between the two's presence today?

 

[robtex]

Dadball I enjoyed your story and wish the best for you but cant say I have ever had your type of revelation. I knew a Christian who deconverted and reconveted after coming down from a cocaine addiction and alcoholic problems and one time we found 20 dollars laying on the floor of a grocery store with nobody on our isle or the adjacent isles to us. She was broke and had just prayed to God for money. I would have to say though that the most likly senerio is somebody lost it instead of divine intervention somehow put it there. But it did happen none-the-less. I thought about it when you gave me your 20 example.

Tvor, well here we go again, more questions than answers. Sometimes just knowing the question is as close as your gonna get and maybe this is one of those times. There seems to be a non consensus on what emperical is and that may be what makes this thread complicated. I was trying to pin it down with the other post but the examples listed by theists are beyond those 5 senses and that makes this question complicated.

Robtex -
I On the opposite side of the coin, oddly, you just don't see to many Atheists arguing that God doesn't exist "because the Anti-Bible tells me so".
TVOR

About your qoute: It is my understanding that there are two types of atheists:

hard atheism which says "God does not exist" or "there is not God"

and soft atheism which says "I do not believe in God" or "There is no proof of God (therefore I do not believe)."

http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/intro_page.htm

I am not sure about this because other sites including infidels.org list is as a disbelief in God
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/sn-definitions.html

Maybe some of the atheists can clear that up on another thread though.

Patrick: I read your post and than looked up existential in the dictionary and your picture was next to the definintion.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

how many people claim to have an existing relationship with thor?how many churches does thor have?how many people thank thor?how long has thor lasted in comparison to other roman or greek mythologies?how many people hold thors inspired religeous book as infallible?let's say for arguments sake that both [yhwh] and thor are fake, how does one explain the differences between the two's presence today?

So - your point is that because more people buy Goosedown pillows, that means that they truly are better than foam pillows?
For the fiftieth time, this is the logical fallacy of argumentum ad populum or an appeal to the majority. Simply because many people believe something does not make it right or true. Again, the old "Eat at Joe's Diner - Five Thousand Flies Can't Be Wrong!" comes to mind.
If your argument were valid, then it would stand to reason that Islam, not Christianity is the correct way to view and worship God. Can I assume that you will be converting soon, and renouncing Christianity? Or would you rather admit that Thor has as much validity as your version of God?

What say you, HelpMe?

TVOR

 

[Dadball]

But it did happen none-the-less. I thought about it when you gave me your 20 example.

You see God is at work. Hallelujah.:biglaugh:

I was trying to pin it down with the other post but the examples listed by theists are beyond those 5 senses and that makes this question complicated.

It is a complicated question. As someone who believes in God, I can't give you the proof that you need to know he exists, because I don't need that. You on the other hand can't destroy my belief in God because it is personal to me. I'm the only one that can destroy that relationship.



I like the Anti-Bible Quote though. If there is such a book I would like to read it.

 

[HelpMe]

i say that pillows or diners shouldn't be comparable to matters of 'spiritual' opinion.

i would also say that you can research islam as much as you like, and if you can let it convince you then great.i on the other hand coult not, i was/am convinced by the bible, not islam, and not christianity in general.i would say that i have in my experiences come across more proof to believe in my 'god' than to not, or to believe in thor or islam.

and dadball, have you read the boomer bible?

 

[The Voice of Reason]

It is a complicated question. As someone who believes in God, I can't give you the proof that you need to know he exists, because I don't need that.

This is exactly what I was talking about in my earlier post. Simply because I need empirical proof of God, does not mean that others require that level of evidence. Obviously, Dadball, Martha, and Carrdero are examples of Theists that have all the evidence that they need to believe in God.
My requirement for stronger evidence does not make me right - it only makes me more skeptical.

Thanks,
TVOR

 

[The Voice of Reason]

i would also say that you can research islam as much as you like, and if you can let it convince you then great.i on the other hand coult not, i was/am convinced by the bible, not islam, and not christianity in general.

But what of the fact that more people believe in Islam - according to your logic, does that not make it more correct than Christianity? This is your reasoning that allows you to dismiss Spinkles' question of why you do not believe in Thor - so why do you not apply the same reasoning to the faith of Islam as compared to Christianity?

TVOR

 

[jewscout]

Why not look for the sacred and dispense with the Divine?

I suppose you could. Just different strokes for different folks i guess, hell you could say you see Carl the cableguy in everyday life:bonk: :jiggy:

 

[HelpMe]

i can say the reasoning used to compare the god of the bible to thor would not be applicable to comparing [yhwh] to a false religion(imo,islam), because thor has no religion(or religeous[sp] following today).

i think his question would better if it replaced thor with the intended targets false religion.but i do understand your question about my statement, and agree with where you're coming from, i worded it wrongly perhaps.we see linguistic gymnastics on forums all day, i am not a participant.

 

[Yerda]

i can say the reasoning used to compare the god of the bible to thor would not be applicable to comparing [yhwh] to a false religion(imo,islam), because thor has no religion(or religeous[sp] following today).

What are you on about? Do you believe in Thor or not? Why not?

 

[jasonparker]

http://www.harunyahya.com/signs_design_01.php

SIGNS OF GOD
Design in Nature​