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Can God be moral?

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Can you think of any situation where murder could be beneficial?
No.

Because even the best case situation: a seemingly justified (in the eyes of some) 'extrajudicial killing' (not done in self-defense) isn't a good thing.

It leaves some people feeling a wrong was done.

A trial helps at least some people see the real guilt of someone, if it is a well done trial and using real facts in an objective way, without distortions.

So, a trial helps society as a whole. For instance, the trial of Slobodan Milosevic.

Trial of Slobodan Milošević - Wikipedia

It would not have been good to simply assassinate him.

It was beneficial to Serbia to put him on trial -- helped more people see the truth.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
No.

Because even the best case situation: a seemingly justified (in the eyes of some) 'extrajudicial killing' (not done in self-defense) isn't a good thing.

It leaves some people feeling a wrong was done.

A trial helps at least some people see the real guilt of someone, if it is a well done trial and using real facts in an objective way, without distortions.

So, a trial helps society as a whole. For instance, the trial of Slobodan Milosevic.

Trial of Slobodan Milošević - Wikipedia

It would not have been good to simply assassinate him.

It was beneficial to Serbia to put him on trial -- helped more people see the truth.
Again not be annoying. But you missed some questions, especially the first one is very important:

What is the criteria you use for determining that something is considered beneficial, what are the rules so to speak?

And what about stealing?
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
is there any situation where stealing could be beneficial?

Not generally. But, you can seemingly justify such in some kind of Robin Hood imaginary world. For instance, set up a highly unjust society in which the rich are well fed and have an overabundance, and the poor are starving. Here the key illusion is to ignore the reality that the rich in such a world are typically rich by having indirectly stolen from those same poor and/or lower class, to begin with. The real justice would be to reverse the original injustice by which they became so rich while their workers began to starve, such as illegitimate ways they have all the natural resources like land or such, to begin with.

So, you can have a basically unjust situation in which the desperate poor would then take justice in theory own hands by stealing back some of what was stolen from them.

But, in closer examination, a Robin Hood is conducting a kind of war, actually, against an injustice.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Again not be annoying. But you missed some questions, especially the first one is very important:

What is the criteria you use for determining that something is considered beneficial, what are the rules so to speak?

And what about stealing?
Looking just a bit longer should help bring it all together (go past just a couple of sentences) --

beneficial: favorable or advantageous; resulting in good.

Where 'good' is defined in an ordinary way:

good: to be desired or approved of (by a society as a whole, in general)

The "good" is what is generally valued by people everywhere, in any time and place, in common, a universal. E.g. "based on objective traits of human nature" -- what humans want in common around the world, independent of a cultural background.

Stuff like adequate food, safety, social relations, etc. Common stuff people in any nation and any time want.

You could go to any place, and find common people (the great majority) all valuing those same things. The particular subset that are things we generally all value when young, such as life, liberty, and love, etc.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Going to start with the last post, as that makes more sense.

beneficial: favorable or advantageous; resulting in good.
You can't just add ";resulting in good" to the definition of beneficial, because it would make it wrong. Whether or not something is beneficial is not related to whether it good or not. Imagine I was starving and you didn't want to give me any food because you hardly had any, then I could kill you and steal you food and that would be beneficial for me.

So we could change the word to Good.

So if we go with this definition:
good: to be desired or approved of (by a society as a whole, in general)

Is there any situation where stealing could be good?

I'll use some common examples, which I think or hope you agree are realistic.

Let's assume a child is freezing and living on the street with no means of getting warm cloth, so it decide to steal a jacket from a shop, would you consider this an "evil" or wrong thing to do, despite us claiming that stealing in general is wrong?

In regards to murder, the classic example is whether or not you would consider the murder of a person like Hitler a good or bad thing?

If a society as a whole (in general), think that it is a good thing to kill a minority of people of a certain race, then it does actually fit with the definition of good right? Which means that good as the extremely "weak" word it is, must be a subjective opinion, because obviously the minority would consider it wrong, but are overruled by the whole and therefore it must be good.

I actually agree that this is how reality is best reflected, it is not how we would want things to be. But because we have no final judge, which can tell us what is right and wrong. I think we have enough evidence for that historically.
When Hitler decided to murder the Jews, it were other humans which disagree with him that stepped in and stopped him. It was not some hand from the sky or some other force of good that stopped it, because something wrong was being done. At least we have no evidence for it being the case.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Going to start with the last post, as that makes more sense.


You can't just add ";resulting in good" to the definition of beneficial, because it would make it wrong. Whether or not something is beneficial is not related to whether it good or not. Imagine I was starving and you didn't want to give me any food because you hardly had any, then I could kill you and steal you food and that would be beneficial for me.

So we could change the word to Good.

So if we go with this definition:
good: to be desired or approved of (by a society as a whole, in general)

Is there any situation where stealing could be good?

I'll use some common examples, which I think or hope you agree are realistic.

Let's assume a child is freezing and living on the street with no means of getting warm cloth, so it decide to steal a jacket from a shop, would you consider this an "evil" or wrong thing to do, despite us claiming that stealing in general is wrong?

In regards to murder, the classic example is whether or not you would consider the murder of a person like Hitler a good or bad thing?

If a society as a whole (in general), think that it is a good thing to kill a minority of people of a certain race, then it does actually fit with the definition of good right? Which means that good as the extremely "weak" word it is, must be a subjective opinion, because obviously the minority would consider it wrong, but are overruled by the whole and therefore it must be good.

I actually agree that this is how reality is best reflected, it is not how we would want things to be. But because we have no final judge, which can tell us what is right and wrong. I think we have enough evidence for that historically.
When Hitler decided to murder the Jews, it were other humans which disagree with him that stepped in and stopped him. It was not some hand from the sky or some other force of good that stopped it, because something wrong was being done. At least we have no evidence for it being the case.
I addressed the Robin Hood situation directly already in post 243. (Les Misérables situation is simply another instance of that)

So, while it directly answered your questions in this post, it may or may not be clear enough. Let me know.

Also, I directly answered about this question above: "In regards to murder, the classic example is whether or not you would consider the murder of a person like Hitler a good or bad thing?"

See post #241.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Also, I directly answered about this question above: "In regards to murder, the classic example is whether or not you would consider the murder of a person like Hitler a good or bad thing?"

See post #241.
Try to clarify "It was beneficial to Serbia to put him on trial -- helped more people see the truth."

The charges on which Milošević was indicted were: genocide; complicity in genocide; deportation; murder; persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds; inhumane acts/forcible transfer; extermination; imprisonment; torture; willful killing; unlawful confinement; willfully causing great suffering; unlawful deportation or transfer; extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly; cruel treatment; plunder of public or private property; attacks on civilians; destruction or willful damage done to historic monuments and institutions dedicated to education or religion; unlawful attacks on civilian objects.

So these are the things he was charged with do you think that the people which suffered under this would agree with you?

My point is not especially to disagree with what you are saying, but I don't think your reasoning hold water, in regards to whether or not something can be said to be a universally good law. There are way to many examples where you would have to agree that someone have to suffer for your point to make sense. Because I don't think for a moment that any of the victims of Milosevic would agree with you that their life weren't more worth than simply helping some people see the truth and because it would be beneficial for Serbia. Do you think that those that were victims of genocide cares about what happened to Serbia, when they are being killed?
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
It is often stated by religious people that objective morality comes from God (Biblical), but is it really possible for him to be moral under his own rules?

Simply using the Bible as example, but as far as I know it is the same for Islam in this case.

Im going to use this text as basis for this (If they are wrong, let me know and explain why they are):

The Ten Commandments

Moses received the Ten Commandments directly from God on Mount Sinai, written on two stone tablets. They assert the uniqueness of God, and forbid such things as theft, adultery, murder and lying. The Ten Commandments are equally important in Jewish and Christian traditions and appear in the Old Testament in Exodus and Deuteronomy.

Various Christian and Jewish traditions have different wordings for the Ten Commandments. They can be numbered differently. They appear in various forms in the Bible. This is a Christian version:

  • I am the Lord thy God: thou shalt not have strange Gods before me
  • Thou shall not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
  • Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
  • Honour thy father and thy mother
  • Thou shalt not kill
  • Thou shalt not commit adultery
  • Thou shalt not steal
  • Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour
  • Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife
  • Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods
The Qur'an does not list the Ten Commandments explicitly, but their substance appears in various places.

God is often referred to as being all good, all knowing etc. and obviously also the author of morality, more specifically objective morality.

Often there is some misunderstandings regarding what is meant by objective morality, so to quickly explain it, it simply means that morality apply regardless of humans being here or not. So when God say that killing is morally wrong, it is wrong regardless of whether not we we were here. Said in another way, in this context it means that God decides what is right and wrong.

My question or issue is whether a person or God in this case can be said to be moral consistent, unless they themself can uphold their own moral rules.

If I tell you that it is morally wrong to steal and I punish you for doing so, but then decide to steal something myself, would you consider me to be morally justified since I made the rule?

Same can be asked about God, "Thou shalt not kill" yet we know that God kills and orders the killing of many people in favour of the Jews. So does God's objective moralities applies to him as well, as they do to me in the above example or not?

Despite him being the creator of everything, objective morality is rules decided by God to be true and therefore arguably part of his nature. But is it possible for someone, God or human to be moral, if they can't uphold their own moral standards?

I want you to take into consideration that, simply because you create or is seen as the caretaker of something, does that mean that you are not morally responsible for said creation? By caretaker I mean, let's imagine you own a dog and it have puppies, and you are morally against killing puppies, are you then not morally obligated to treat all puppies according to your own moral rules, if you want to stay morally coherent, under the concept of objective morality?

If not, God must obviously follow subjective moral ideas and therefore objective morality is likely to be an illusion applied to us by God as if they were, and therefore seen more as divine laws, which God himself apparently doesn't seem a need to uphold himself. Wouldn't that make God immoral, under the general human understanding of morality?

Because I would argue, that a person can't be morally consistent, if they can't uphold their own moral standards. For instant most people will agree that under most circumstances stealing is wrong, yet most people have probably stolen something at some point that they weren't legally entitled to. (Doesn't have to be anything major) But still this would be considered morally inconsistent in my opinion, if we claim that stealing is objectively wrong.

So can God be moral? And if so why?
I do not believe that God created the rules - or the Law - but that He abides by them perfectly.

And the commandments that He has given Man are for the benefit of Man - but are not necessarily a "copy and paste" of the Law that he abides by.

For example - most of the Ten Commandments start with "thou shalt" - meaning "you" or collective humanity - and therefore do not necessarily apply to God in the same way.

It's kinda like how you would tell your child not to hit others - yet there are perfectly appropriate times to be violent - such as in the defense of yourself or another.

We just shouldn't confuse the commandments that God has given us with universal/cosmic/eternal Law.

Because - according to that law - we would all be irredeemably doomed.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I do not believe that God created the rules - or the Law - but that He abides by them perfectly.
So where do you think the laws come from, that they can govern God?

For example - most of the Ten Commandments start with "thou shalt" - meaning "you" or collective humanity - and therefore do not necessarily apply to God in the same way.
I agree. There is not really a lot in the bible, as far as I recall that indicate that God is bound by any laws. He is bound by certain absolutes like being all good etc. Which obviously mean that he can kill whoever he pleases, but it would still be good, we as humans just have to accept it or admit that we don't get it, and that we didn't really learned how to see the difference between good and evil, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree. There is a bit of contradictions going on somewhere in all this.

"Thou shalt.." could also simply refer to how the Jews ought to treat other Jews, they are the chosen people of God after all, that would solve a lot of the contradictions at least, and explain why God doesn't seem to mind the Jews breaking the law when murdering so many people in the OT.

It's kinda like how you would tell your child not to hit others - yet there are perfectly appropriate times to be violent - such as in the defense of yourself or another.
Agree, the issue is just that this doesn't really hold true for a lot of the killing that God commands in the bible. But then again he is not bound by the laws.

We just shouldn't confuse the commandments that God has given us with universal/cosmic/eternal Law.
Agree, as mentioned above, it seems most likely to only apply to a specific group of people, mainly the Jews.
 

Fallen Prophet

Well-Known Member
So where do you think the laws come from, that they can govern God?
I believe that the Law is just as eternal as God is and that they do not "govern" Him - because God is not forced to follow them - but His nature and will align with the Law - because He is a perfected Being - and by being in perfect alignment with the Law - all things are subject to Him.
I agree. There is not really a lot in the bible, as far as I recall that indicate that God is bound by any laws. He is bound by certain absolutes like being all good etc.
Yes - those "absolutes" are the Law I have been referencing - the Law of the Universe and Perfection and Godhood and Life Eternal.
Which obviously mean that he can kill whoever he pleases, but it would still be good, we as humans just have to accept it or admit that we don't get it, and that we didn't really learned how to see the difference between good and evil, when Adam and Eve ate from the tree.
I do not believe that it is as simple as Him doing as He pleases - but all that He does is according to His nature - which means for the good of all.

God does not look on physical death as we do. To Him it is merely us leaving one state to another - kind of like exiting one room and entering another.

He does not remove anyone based on nothing but His whim - but according to Law and the promises He has made to us - His children.
There is a bit of contradictions going on somewhere in all this.
Not really - knowledge is not necessarily wisdom.

Adam and Eve gained Knowledge of Good and Evil - but that does not mean that they always applied it appropriately.

It takes knowledge - time - effort - experience - to develop wisdom - which is the appropriate application of knowledge.
"Thou shalt.." could also simply refer to how the Jews ought to treat other Jews, they are the chosen people of God after all, that would solve a lot of the contradictions at least, and explain why God doesn't seem to mind the Jews breaking the law when murdering so many people in the OT.
Perhaps - but I am inclined to believe otherwise - especially when you consider passages from Genesis - God condemning Cain for killing his brother, the world being covered in violence to justify the Flood, Man being commanded to take the life of murderers.

All of these things predated the Ten Commandments and the birth of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

I believe the "thou shalt not kill" (or rather "murder') is God telling us that we do not possess the authority to choose who to kill.

God's commanding Israel to destroy certain peoples in ancient Palestine was most likely a result of the Law.
Agree, the issue is just that this doesn't really hold true for a lot of the killing that God commands in the bible. But then again he is not bound by the laws.
I believe the killing of the inhabitants of ancient Palestine was justified under the Law.

When God promised Abraham the land of Canaan - the land of the Amorites - He told him that his seed would dwell in another land for four generations (Egypt) - but that they would one day return to claim the land - and this was so because - "the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full." (Genesis 15:16)

I believe that while Israel sojourned in Egypt that the inhabitants of ancient Palestine became a wicked people and rejected the prophets among them - such as Balaam - and according to Law - when a people reaches a certain state of iniquity - they can be removed.
Agree, as mentioned above, it seems most likely to only apply to a specific group of people, mainly the Jews.
Perhaps - but I believe the same Law was in effect when the Flood waters came.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
I believe that the Law is just as eternal as God is and that they do not "govern" Him - because God is not forced to follow them - but His nature and will align with the Law - because He is a perfected Being - and by being in perfect alignment with the Law - all things are subject to Him.
That is an interesting idea, but wouldn't the Universe or whatever is governing these law have to be sentient then? The reason I ask, is because unlike natural laws, which I guess you would agree with, are not sentient, like gravity is not leaning in a specific moral direction, such as "Gravity is evil" and "No gravity is Good". The laws you speak of, which God chooses to align with, would need to follow the same principle for when we humans make such judgement, in order to even make for the possibility of the absolute "God is all good"?

For instance imagine we lived on a strange Earth, where "Murdering were the only option, there simply is no alternative to it." then we wouldn't judge it as being either Good or Evil, it would simply be like Gravity. We can refer to gravity as a good thing, because we don't float into space, but we wouldn't refer to it as being morally Good, even if we at some point develop an anti gravity device, we still wouldn't do it.

But for God to make a moral judgement of Good and Evil and him being a perfect being. These laws must have alternatives that he can judge, exactly like we can do it when talking about something like "murder", because it's not only the act of murder that is in play here, it's a whole range of moral issues, like someone being wrongfully stolen their life, treated unfair etc. And when enough of these goes against what we think, we make a final judgement that "Murder" in a given case is considered unjustified and therefore wrong or an evil act. I want to make sure you see what I mean, so exactly like natural evil, this is a term used to describe victims of non human caused suffering. Like an earthquake destroying and killing a lot of people etc. The only reason, we might refer to it as natural evil is because of God. If two atheists talk about these things and the chat have nothing to do with religion or God, the term natural evil is not relevant, we have extremely good explanations of why they occur in nature. So it is only when a being such as God is said to be all good and it still happens, that we would term it like that.

So wouldn't these laws you talk about have to be judge that way as well to make sense for God, and therefore they would also need to have a sentient cause that God could judge?

I do not believe that it is as simple as Him doing as He pleases - but all that He does is according to His nature - which means for the good of all.
I understand what you mean with this, but I fail to see how it is for the good of all, clearly those trapped under a building after an earthquake, would probably have a hard time understanding that them being there is for the greater good.

Also as mentioned earlier to another person in this thread, is the issue with animal suffering in the wild, because I don't see how animals killing each other and suffering at the hand of nature is for the good of all. If you take a hunter in general (obviously not an everyone), they practice and learn how to shoot an animal so they know where to hit it so it dies as fast as possible. Even if you are against hunting, at least humans doing this, will try to minimize suffering. So if we can do it, you would expect God to also be able to do it, yet animals can really kill each other in horrible ways. I don't get the impression that humans in general around the world have some wish or desire or see a benefit in animals killing each other like they do, so I think it's kind of difficult to explain how that is for the good of all? You would have a good argument, if people were really enjoying seeing animals suffer.

Not really - knowledge is not necessarily wisdom.

Adam and Eve gained Knowledge of Good and Evil - but that does not mean that they always applied it appropriately.
I agree, but in that case how would you make an argument that something is right and not wrong? Obviously we would have to rely on God telling us what is and isn't. Which causes some issues. Because according to God, slavery is not wrong, he made rules for how you ought to treat them and he also told us how to rightfully punish people that breaks his laws, yet we don't follow them and if we know we can't trust our judgement of Good and Evil, there ought to be no discussion of how to deal with these things, because God already told us and we know he is all good and works for the greater good of all.
This is obviously only one issue, another one which is probably much worse, is that Christians which are the largest religion in the world, have thrown God's law out the window, and said that it doesn't apply anymore, which leaves us to completely rely on our own lack of ability to judgement right from wrong.

Again, if we know that we can't correctly judge these from each other, what basis do we have to say that one thing is Good and not Evil?

I believe the killing of the inhabitants of ancient Palestine was justified under the Law.
We have to believe that under the circumstances that God did it for the greater good of all, including those ancient inhabitants. So clearly it was Good to get rid of them. :)

It is often argued that God gave us free will because he didn't want us to be mere mindless robots, but im honestly not sure what is worse, being mindless robots or robots with free will, unable to know right from wrong. That seems like a disaster of unavoidable death and suffering just waiting to happen, to be honest.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
Try to clarify "It was beneficial to Serbia to put him on trial -- helped more people see the truth."

The charges on which Milošević was indicted were: genocide; complicity in genocide; deportation; murder; persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds; inhumane acts/forcible transfer; extermination; imprisonment; torture; willful killing; unlawful confinement; willfully causing great suffering; unlawful deportation or transfer; extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly; cruel treatment; plunder of public or private property; attacks on civilians; destruction or willful damage done to historic monuments and institutions dedicated to education or religion; unlawful attacks on civilian objects.

So these are the things he was charged with do you think that the people which suffered under this would agree with you?

My point is not especially to disagree with what you are saying, but I don't think your reasoning hold water, in regards to whether or not something can be said to be a universally good law. There are way to many examples where you would have to agree that someone have to suffer for your point to make sense. Because I don't think for a moment that any of the victims of Milosevic would agree with you that their life weren't more worth than simply helping some people see the truth and because it would be beneficial for Serbia. Do you think that those that were victims of genocide cares about what happened to Serbia, when they are being killed?
Sorry, not trying to be irritating, but your points seem not very thought out.

You are seeming (if I get what you say) to suggest that we should stop crimes sooner -- prevent much suffering, so that we should either:
a?) somehow anticipate ahead of time wrongdoing and prevent it (?), or
b) instead do justice very rapidly, before wrongdoing can even get very far, so that the criminal can't get away even at the beginning of a period of war crimes? (but how would you imagine to stop that precisely?....)

It took years to finally capture Milosevic.

It would be reasonable to say we should have strong enough international operations to capture internationally indicted suspects sooner.... But that would not have prevented their crimes from happening, nor their victims from suffering.

When the U.S. helped stop previous genocides (in those instances), it was with sustained military action, and did not happen in just a day or a month.

So, basically it seems like you just need to learn more history and think these things through more.
 
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Nimos

Well-Known Member
Sorry, not trying to be irritating, but your points seem not very thought out.

You are seeming (if I get what you say) to suggest that we should stop crimes sooner -- prevent much suffering, so that we should either:
a?) somehow anticipate ahead of time wrongdoing and prevent it (?), or
b) instead do justice very rapidly, before wrongdoing can even get very far, so that the criminal can't get away even at the beginning of a period of war crimes? (but how would you imagine to stop that precisely?....)

It took years to finally capture Milosevic.

It would be reasonable to say we should have strong enough international operations to capture internationally indicted suspects sooner.... But that would not have prevented their crimes from happening, nor their victims from suffering.

When the U.S. helped stop previous genocides (in those instances), it was with sustained military action, and did not happen in just a day or a month.

So, basically it seems like you just need to learn more history and think these things through more.
I think you misunderstood my point or I didn't made them clear enough. Will just quickly recap:

I asked you if you could think of a situation where murder could be good (beneficial)?

And you answered no, with an explanation, part of that explanation was this:

It would not have been good to simply assassinate him.

It was beneficial to Serbia to put him on trial -- helped more people see the truth.


(This is from before I change beneficial to good, which I hope you agree with.)

My argument is that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense simply generalizing whether or not something is good or bad as an universal law. Sure, it might be good for a society as a whole that it have fair trials. But for the people having to die and suffer, before such trial it is not. Look at North Korea and how many people that suffers under this as we speak. But in theory we should just tell the North Koreans to suck it up and stop complaining, because it will be for the greater good in the end.

Whether people agree or not, is a subjective opinion and not a universal law that murder is always wrong.

Im not saying that we need to be able to anticipate crimes ahead of time or to do justice very rapidly. It's completely irrelevant, this is what im addressing:

There are objectively beneficial laws based on our shared objective human nature, traits we all share in common

And im arguing that there is no such thing as objectively beneficial (good) laws. Because it's a subjective opinion whether they is or isn't. So when you say that is was beneficial for Serbia, it's not necessarily wrong, but you have a hard time arguing that those that were murdered would agree, and wouldn't have preferred that Milosevic had been assassinated.

Very important, Im not saying that one thing is objectively better than something else, in fact I will argue that no such thing exist, its purely based on Your opinion, My opinion and everyone else's opinion whether they think it is or isn't. There is no final correct answer to it.

You could say that I am immoral because you think the best was that a trial was done, so more people saw the truth, because your criteria is that you believe it will benefit Serbia the most.
I could call you immoral, because I think the lives of those that had to die, are more important than helping more people see the truth.

But none of us are objectively right about our view, its purely our subjective opinion.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
And im arguing that there is no such thing as objectively beneficial (good) laws. Because it's a subjective opinion whether they is or isn't.
Your opinion is subjective.

But the objectively seen outcomes of laws are not subjective of course, nor are the objective preference for a given law in any country or time, such as "do not murder" being a popularly preferred law to have in every country, at every time, by a super majority of the population. Independent of region or time period.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Your opinion is subjective.

But the objectively seen outcomes of laws are not subjective of course, nor are the objective preference for a given law in any country or time, such as "do not murder" being a popularly preferred law to have in every country, at every time, by a super majority of the population. Independent of region or time period.
I agree, that this apply within a society, but not as a general rule.

Try to read this, its an article posted by livescience (This is just some of them):

From prehistory to the 21st century, human sacrifice has been practiced around the world by numerous cultures. Live Science takes a look at 25 cultures that practiced, or still practice, human sacrifice.

China sacrifice
Human sacrifice was practiced in China for thousands of years. At a 4,000-year-old cemetery near modern-day Mogou village in northwestern China, archaeologists found hundreds of tombs, some of which held human sacrifices. One sacrificed victim was around 13 years old. Archaeologists have also found thousands of human sacrifices at Shang Dynasty (1600 – 1040 B.C.) sites in the modern-day city of Anyang.

City of Ur
The Great Death Pit at the ancient city of Ur, in modern-day Iraq, contains the remains of 68 women and six men, many of which appear to have been sacrificed.

Mound 72
A 10-foot (3 meters) mound called Mound 72 by modern-day archaeologists holds the remains of 272 people, many of them sacrificed. It is located at Cahokia, a city located near modern-day St. Louis that flourished from A.D. 1050 to 1200.

The archaeology of the mound is complex, but it appears as if people were sacrificed gradually in a series of episodes. In one episode, 52 malnourished women ages 18 to 23, along with a woman in her 30s, were sacrificed at the same time. In another episode, it appears that 39 men and women were clubbed to death. The mound also holds the remains of two individuals who were buried with 20,000 shell beads. It's possible that some or all of the sacrifices were dedicated to the two individuals.

Inca child mummies
In one famous example, three child mummies were found near the remains of a shrine at Mount Llullaillaco — a 22,100-foot-tall (6,740 meters) active volcano on the border of Chile and Argentina. Researchers found that in the year before they died they were "fattened up" with a diet of maize and dried llama meat; and before their death, they were given maize beer and coca leaves. How exactly they were killed is unknown.

Greeks sacrificed to Zeus
Textual references and archaeological remains indicate that the ancient Greeks, at times, practiced human sacrifice. In 2016, a 3,000-year-old skeleton of a male teenager was found at an altar dedicated to Zeus at Mount Lykaion in Greece. Archaeologists believe that the teen may have been sacrificed to Zeus, an idea supported by ancient texts that tell of child sacrifices that were made on the mountain.

Ancient Human Sacrifice Victims Faced Slavery Before Death | Live Science

I don't think that these cultures agree that sacrificing (murdering) humans to the their gods or what other reasons they had, thought it was wrong. This have obviously changed over time, and it's not common today, our morality on this have changed.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I agree, that this apply within a society, but not as a general rule.

Try to read this, its an article posted by livescience (This is just some of them):

From prehistory to the 21st century, human sacrifice has been practiced around the world by numerous cultures. Live Science takes a look at 25 cultures that practiced, or still practice, human sacrifice.

China sacrifice
Human sacrifice was practiced in China for thousands of years. At a 4,000-year-old cemetery near modern-day Mogou village in northwestern China, archaeologists found hundreds of tombs, some of which held human sacrifices. One sacrificed victim was around 13 years old. Archaeologists have also found thousands of human sacrifices at Shang Dynasty (1600 – 1040 B.C.) sites in the modern-day city of Anyang.

City of Ur
The Great Death Pit at the ancient city of Ur, in modern-day Iraq, contains the remains of 68 women and six men, many of which appear to have been sacrificed.

Mound 72
A 10-foot (3 meters) mound called Mound 72 by modern-day archaeologists holds the remains of 272 people, many of them sacrificed. It is located at Cahokia, a city located near modern-day St. Louis that flourished from A.D. 1050 to 1200.

The archaeology of the mound is complex, but it appears as if people were sacrificed gradually in a series of episodes. In one episode, 52 malnourished women ages 18 to 23, along with a woman in her 30s, were sacrificed at the same time. In another episode, it appears that 39 men and women were clubbed to death. The mound also holds the remains of two individuals who were buried with 20,000 shell beads. It's possible that some or all of the sacrifices were dedicated to the two individuals.

Inca child mummies
In one famous example, three child mummies were found near the remains of a shrine at Mount Llullaillaco — a 22,100-foot-tall (6,740 meters) active volcano on the border of Chile and Argentina. Researchers found that in the year before they died they were "fattened up" with a diet of maize and dried llama meat; and before their death, they were given maize beer and coca leaves. How exactly they were killed is unknown.

Greeks sacrificed to Zeus
Textual references and archaeological remains indicate that the ancient Greeks, at times, practiced human sacrifice. In 2016, a 3,000-year-old skeleton of a male teenager was found at an altar dedicated to Zeus at Mount Lykaion in Greece. Archaeologists believe that the teen may have been sacrificed to Zeus, an idea supported by ancient texts that tell of child sacrifices that were made on the mountain.

Ancient Human Sacrifice Victims Faced Slavery Before Death | Live Science

I don't think that these cultures agree that sacrificing (murdering) humans to the their gods or what other reasons they had, thought it was wrong. This have obviously changed over time, and it's not common today, our morality on this have changed.

Interesting example.

The significance of the (seeming) plan for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac -- which was progressed through up to the crucial moment...

...and then stopped (!)...

The significance of that sudden change -- was the deeper sea-change: no longer would human sacrifice be thought of as a way, to God's people. Instead "God will provide the lamb" as the text literally reads, and then literally shows happening. (Subsequently, the outright rule is given: no human sacrifice. e.g. Deuteronomy 12:31 (and several other instances).)

Returning back to our discussion, while I've said elsewhere that human sacrifice was common around the world, and then Israel given Law from God against it....

It faded out, over time.

That's key.

Unlike "Do not Murder", human sacrifice stopped being common...and became increasingly uncommon, and finally is now probably quite rare.....

In contrast, a rule of the form "Do not murder" (or like form) didn't fade out.... It continues, not only in the past, but continues through time.

That's one of the qualities I pointed out previously: not only common around the world, but in "any time", including recent times and the present.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Interesting example.

The significance of the (seeming) plan for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac -- which was progressed through up to the crucial moment...

...and then stopped (!)...

The significance of that sudden change -- was the deeper sea-change: no longer would human sacrifice be thought of as a way, to God's people. Instead "God will provide the lamb" as the text literally reads, and then literally shows happening. (Subsequently, the outright rule is given: no human sacrifice. e.g. Deuteronomy 12:31 (and several other instances).)

Returning back to our discussion, while I've said elsewhere that human sacrifice was common around the world, and then Israel given Law from God against it....

It faded out, over time.

That's key.

Unlike "Do not Murder", human sacrifice stopped being common...and became increasingly uncommon, and finally is now probably quite rare.....

In contrast, a rule of the form "Do not murder" (or like form) didn't fade out.... It continues, not only in the past, but continues through time.

That's one of the qualities I pointed out previously: not only common around the world, but in "any time", including recent times and the present.
I think you are doing some sort of special pleading here, in the sense that you agree that these things happened and weren't all that uncommon within cultures around the world. But rather than accepting that our moral standard have changed over time as these cultures did not stop this practice at the same time, which would easily be explained by there not being a universal law, but rather a natural development over time in our moral standards, exactly like we would expect religious beliefs to develop over time.
Like it would be amazing to find an ancient religion from a primitive hunter gathering tribe with a religion as complex as Christianity. But we don't, we find much more "primitive" ideas, such as worshipping animals, ancestors and near Earth stuff like that, which is what we would expect. And that these would develop over time to become more complex, seem to be reasonable, as these idea got questioned and maybe couldn't provide sufficient explanation for the stuff early humans experienced.

But to explain why people would stop doing it and justify objective morality you just throw in God like a savior. But this doesn't really give a reasonable answer, because human sacrifice, is only one of many bad things that humans have done and still do and can justify doing, despite of God.
Examples are slavery, genocides despite it not being human sacrifice, it is still considered murder, and have been justified by whoever did it, even after God in the Bible saw the light of day.

And a lot of these things were done by people of faith including Christians, but also people of no faith. So it seems that these things are done, regardless of the religious background a person hold.

But "Do not murder" is what started all this, human sacrifice is just part of the idea of murder, beating a slave to death or genocide are also just actions that we could put in the category of murder. And since people and societies have and can justify doing these things to other people, its difficult to explain that it is universally wrong as if it is a law.

Maybe it helps if I explain my way of approaching something like this:

So the initial question I would like to examine could be "Is morality objective, subjective or a mixture?"

First step, would obviously be to figure out what define each of these.

Next I would change the question into a condition, based on the definition - "If morality is objective, it has to be true regardless of whether we existed or not."

Finally I would define what would be valid test examples. For example, would a person which suffers from a psychological condition, which makes them incapable of making these types of judgements be a fair representation of the average humans? I don't think they will, and therefore I won't use these special cases to try to test the condition.
However if a certain action is common enough throughout societies, they will not be considered special cases. Such as child abuse which seems to happen to such a degree that it seems like a common condition of humans. This is obviously a judgement I make, which is up for debate.

Then I would start finding example to test against the condition above and will usually start with hardest questions I can think of, which I could imagine wouldn't meet the condition.

So it could be "Is it objectively wrong to murder someone?" or "Is it objectively wrong for parents to kill their child?", So will just take the last one, because that covers the first one, but is more specific.

It would be a good example to show that at least some morality is objective, if such thing had never occured. So we look for exactly such examples then.

Obviously we can look at the story of Abraham in the bible, which you also mentioned and wonder why God would want him to do it, simply to test him? and him being willing to go through with it and just before he is about to kill him, God stops him and tell him that he have proved himself. Obviously the act done by God is the working of a maniac to put a father through something like that. But that is besides the point, but what it does indicate is the thought that goes into this story and that it is considered a huge sacrifice and maybe even the ultimate test of a God. But this is easy explained away as simply being a story, so it doesn't really prove anything.

Where this gets a lot harder to explain, is when we look at actual examples from past history, this is just an example of two such cultures.

Inca culture
The Inca culture sacrificed children in a ritual called qhapaq hucha. Their frozen corpses have been discovered in the South American mountaintops. The first of these corpses, a female child who had died from a blow to the skull, was discovered in 1995 by Johan Reinhard. Other methods of sacrifice included strangulation and simply leaving the children, who had been given an intoxicating drink, to lose consciousness in the extreme cold and low-oxygen conditions of the mountaintop, and to die of hypothermia.

Maya culture
In Maya culture, people believed that supernatural beings had power over their lives and this is one reason that child sacrifice occurred. The sacrifices were essentially to satisfy the supernatural beings. This was done through k'ex, which is an exchange or substitution of something. Through k’ex infants would substitute more powerful humans. It was thought that supernatural beings would consume the souls of more powerful humans and infants were substituted in order to prevent that. Infants are believed to be good offerings because they have a close connection to the spirit world through liminality. It is also believed that parents in Maya culture would offer their children for sacrifice and depictions of this show that this was a very emotional time for the parents, but they would carry through because they thought the child would continue existing. It is also known that infant sacrifices occurred at certain times. Child sacrifice was preferred when there was a time of crisis and transitional times such as famine and drought.

There is archaeological evidence of infant sacrifice in tombs where the infant has been buried in urns or ceramic vessels. There have also been depictions of child sacrifice in art. Some art includes pottery and steles as well as references to infant sacrifice in mythology and art depictions of the mythology.


So sacrificing one's children were justified for the greater good, because it pleased the gods. If they thought it was wrong, you would assume that they would have found other things to sacrifice.

You go through enough of these and constantly run into examples of cultures and humans having done these things. Then how can we explain that it is objective morally wrong?

So we ask the same questions using subjective morality.. and it seems that these things are not difficult to explain and why some cultures would do it, while others wouldn't and why the moral standards change over time as cultures evolve.

My point being with all this, is that if we want to test an idea or belief, we have to go to the most extreme examples and see if they hold true. And apparently a God saying that it is objectively morally wrong does not explain why people would still do it.
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
I think you are doing some sort of special pleading here, in the sense that you agree that these things happened and weren't all that uncommon within cultures around the world. But rather than accepting that our moral standard have changed over time as these cultures did not stop this practice at the same time, which would easily be explained by there not being a universal law, but rather a natural development over time in our moral standards, exactly like we would expect religious beliefs to develop over time.
Like it would be amazing to find an ancient religion from a primitive hunter gathering tribe with a religion as complex as Christianity. But we don't, we find much more "primitive" ideas, such as worshipping animals, ancestors and near Earth stuff like that, which is what we would expect. And that these would develop over time to become more complex, seem to be reasonable, as these idea got questioned and maybe couldn't provide sufficient explanation for the stuff early humans experienced.

But to explain why people would stop doing it and justify objective morality you just throw in God like a savior. But this doesn't really give a reasonable answer, because human sacrifice, is only one of many bad things that humans have done and still do and can justify doing, despite of God.
Examples are slavery, genocides despite it not being human sacrifice, it is still considered murder, and have been justified by whoever did it, even after God in the Bible saw the light of day.

And a lot of these things were done by people of faith including Christians, but also people of no faith. So it seems that these things are done, regardless of the religious background a person hold.

But "Do not murder" is what started all this, human sacrifice is just part of the idea of murder, beating a slave to death or genocide are also just actions that we could put in the category of murder. And since people and societies have and can justify doing these things to other people, its difficult to explain that it is universally wrong as if it is a law.

Maybe it helps if I explain my way of approaching something like this:

So the initial question I would like to examine could be "Is morality objective, subjective or a mixture?"

First step, would obviously be to figure out what define each of these.

Next I would change the question into a condition, based on the definition - "If morality is objective, it has to be true regardless of whether we existed or not."

Finally I would define what would be valid test examples. For example, would a person which suffers from a psychological condition, which makes them incapable of making these types of judgements be a fair representation of the average humans? I don't think they will, and therefore I won't use these special cases to try to test the condition.
However if a certain action is common enough throughout societies, they will not be considered special cases. Such as child abuse which seems to happen to such a degree that it seems like a common condition of humans. This is obviously a judgement I make, which is up for debate.

Then I would start finding example to test against the condition above and will usually start with hardest questions I can think of, which I could imagine wouldn't meet the condition.

So it could be "Is it objectively wrong to murder someone?" or "Is it objectively wrong for parents to kill their child?", So will just take the last one, because that covers the first one, but is more specific.

It would be a good example to show that at least some morality is objective, if such thing had never occured. So we look for exactly such examples then.

Obviously we can look at the story of Abraham in the bible, which you also mentioned and wonder why God would want him to do it, simply to test him? and him being willing to go through with it and just before he is about to kill him, God stops him and tell him that he have proved himself. Obviously the act done by God is the working of a maniac to put a father through something like that. But that is besides the point, but what it does indicate is the thought that goes into this story and that it is considered a huge sacrifice and maybe even the ultimate test of a God. But this is easy explained away as simply being a story, so it doesn't really prove anything.

Where this gets a lot harder to explain, is when we look at actual examples from past history, this is just an example of two such cultures.

Inca culture
The Inca culture sacrificed children in a ritual called qhapaq hucha. Their frozen corpses have been discovered in the South American mountaintops. The first of these corpses, a female child who had died from a blow to the skull, was discovered in 1995 by Johan Reinhard. Other methods of sacrifice included strangulation and simply leaving the children, who had been given an intoxicating drink, to lose consciousness in the extreme cold and low-oxygen conditions of the mountaintop, and to die of hypothermia.

Maya culture
In Maya culture, people believed that supernatural beings had power over their lives and this is one reason that child sacrifice occurred. The sacrifices were essentially to satisfy the supernatural beings. This was done through k'ex, which is an exchange or substitution of something. Through k’ex infants would substitute more powerful humans. It was thought that supernatural beings would consume the souls of more powerful humans and infants were substituted in order to prevent that. Infants are believed to be good offerings because they have a close connection to the spirit world through liminality. It is also believed that parents in Maya culture would offer their children for sacrifice and depictions of this show that this was a very emotional time for the parents, but they would carry through because they thought the child would continue existing. It is also known that infant sacrifices occurred at certain times. Child sacrifice was preferred when there was a time of crisis and transitional times such as famine and drought.

There is archaeological evidence of infant sacrifice in tombs where the infant has been buried in urns or ceramic vessels. There have also been depictions of child sacrifice in art. Some art includes pottery and steles as well as references to infant sacrifice in mythology and art depictions of the mythology.


So sacrificing one's children were justified for the greater good, because it pleased the gods. If they thought it was wrong, you would assume that they would have found other things to sacrifice.

You go through enough of these and constantly run into examples of cultures and humans having done these things. Then how can we explain that it is objective morally wrong?

So we ask the same questions using subjective morality.. and it seems that these things are not difficult to explain and why some cultures would do it, while others wouldn't and why the moral standards change over time as cultures evolve.

My point being with all this, is that if we want to test an idea or belief, we have to go to the most extreme examples and see if they hold true. And apparently a God saying that it is objectively morally wrong does not explain why people would still do it.

How could any rule be a universally valued rule if it fades out over time, becomes discredited?

Of course, by definition, that would show such a rule/practice was not a universal that was valued in all times.

That's merely logic based on definition.

So, I think you should examine your own thinking, since you wanted to paint that as 'special pleading', and that in turns suggests you are doing the very thing -- you doing the special pleading it seems likely -- and if so, then would need to detect it and correct it in your own mind.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
How could any rule be a universally valued rule if it fades out over time, becomes discredited?

Of course, by definition, that would show such a rule/practice was not a universal that was valued in all times.

That's merely logic based on definition.

So, I think you should examine your own thinking, since you wanted to paint that as 'special pleading', and that in turns suggests you are doing the very thing -- you doing the special pleading it seems likely -- and if so, then would need to detect it and correct it in your own mind.
I don't see how it could be considered special pleading?

All im claiming is that there doesn't seem to be a single moral truth, rather there are many and that these are individually and agreed upon in a society and can develop over time. I don't make any judgement of whether or not these are right or wrong. I do this, because from all the examples I have showed you, its seems that humans are capable of justifying pretty much anything as being morally right, if they believe they have a justified reason for it.

If morality was objective, I think we would expect to see extreme moral ideas handled similarly all over the world and in all cultures more or less the same way, such as killing one's own children for whatever reason, wouldn't be done, because it couldn't be morally justified, said in another way, there is only one moral truth.

That is what I tried to explain with the example above, when I showed how I would test it. So I don't disagree with you, that humans share a lot of the same moral values, such as murder without justification or stealing is wrong etc. Because looking at cultures and societies all around the world, we see that these things have been punished and look down upon, when done. But there also seem to be a difference here, which we have to take into account, which is that these rules seem to be different, if its done within the group for which one belongs, compared to another group that you don't belong to. We can't ignore this, but have to account for it somehow.

This is what im saying ( or trying to explain :)):
The key difference between relativism and subjectivism is that relativism is the claim that knowledge, truth and morality exist in relation to culture or society and that there are no universal truths while subjectivism is the claim that knowledge is merely subjective and that there is no external or objective truth.

So it's basically a mixture of these, so we as societies can reach certain moral truth based on our culture and society. But that these are built or developed by the individuals belonging to the society from their subjective moral values. Meaning that even though you might broadly agree with the moral standards within the society you belong, you might not agree that abortion is morally right for you, despite your society might allow it. But there happen to be more individuals within your society or some with more "power" that have decided that this is morally right and therefore the rules you should follow. But it doesn't change that you disagree, and also doesn't mean that you are objectively wrong in thinking that abortion is wrong for you. Exactly as it is not objectively wrong for the other people to think it is. The reason for this, in my opinion, is because there doesn't seem to be any universal law, that tells you that you are wrong, despite more people disagreeing with you, and there doesn't seem to be any reason to think that you suffer from any mental conditions that would make you incapable of making moral judgements.

But it is a fact, that you do not agree with the rest and to me, the reason for that is best explained because it is subjective.

Objective truth:
The words objective truth are a reminder that the truth of a belief or statement is entirely a matter of how things are with its object, and has nothing to do with the state of its subject – the person who has the belief or makes the statement.

So if there is an objective truth, how would you explain that you disagree with the other people about abortion? (Just using abortion as example, not saying whether you are for or against)
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
For once I'll dare to write a more complete and somewhat longer post. (I may restate a couple of things on the way to making some entirely new statements I've not yet made above tho)

its seems that humans are capable of justifying pretty much anything as being morally right, if they believe they have a justified reason for it.
I agree on this aspect, though not the more general conclusion before it, but there's more to that:

If morality was objective, I think we would expect to see extreme moral ideas handled similarly all over the world and in all cultures more or less the same way, such as killing one's own children for whatever reason, wouldn't be done, because it couldn't be morally justified, said in another way, there is only one moral truth.

There's plenty of wrongful ideas people have, and those can be and often are dominate in a culture in a time and place, or era, temporarily. ( temporary though can stretch even for centuries long)

But there also seem to be a difference here, which we have to take into account, which is that these rules seem to be different, if its done within the group for which one belongs, compared to another group that you don't belong to. We can't ignore this, but have to account for it somehow.

An important (though separate) side topic -- yes, there is much miscarriage of the 'justice' of any given nation/time/place, where individuals are wrongly accused or convicted of what they did not do. Including as you point out on the basis of race or ethnic group, class, etc.

The key difference between relativism and subjectivism is that relativism is the claim that knowledge, truth and morality exist in relation to culture or society and that there are no universal truths while subjectivism is the claim that knowledge is merely subjective and that there is no external or objective truth.

First a valuable example from a different field to point out I'll then compare with:

Physics: in investigating how nature works (science) we can find that sometimes theories developed can predict what no one has ever observed or expected.

Not ever expected or observed.

And then when an experiment is done to test that never-before-seen prediction, it could be validated, which is a dramatic support that the given theory is at least partially objective (telling us things that aren't merely our own prejudices).

This happened with Einstein's General Relativity in predicting a certain amount of bending of star light by our sun, which was not expected and had not been observed, and when an eclipse allowed the prediction to be tested, it was shown accurate! (to dramatic surprise and then much celebration and acclaim).

A key thing that happens here: there is an objective exterior reality the preexists us learning about it, and has a definite fixed structure, which can be with effort at times partly discovered.

It's not subjective at all, this external reality. We ideally come to some representation about it (a theory) that itself can be accurate enough to predict as yet never before observed phenomena to breathtaking precision.

Now, humans, weather, complex systems....aren't so simple as gravitation/fundamental physics, but...nevertheless, there is a shared common human genome that modern humans have in common, for the last 50,000 years -- a subset of characteristics that we continue to all have.

A certain set of characteristics that are consistent, unchanged, external, preexisting our understanding/discovery. The are objective. They can be discovered by people in different times and countries.

From these fixed, objective characteristics, it follows there will then be certain ways to live (determined by the fixed reality of these fixed characteristics) that would always help us modern humans flourish together as a group in ways we would generally would agree on the value of, by supermajority, from people around the world in any time and place.

Objectively measurable: whether a supermajority above 80% of the adult population in a given nation and time agrees on the law in question as valuable.

Those are each non-subjective pieces.

Each part is objective:
fixed shared common genome,
measurable whether of above 80% of the adult population in any given country and time would agree on the rule (which would be only sometimes ever measured, but we don't have to measure all instances of something in the world to determine the fixed characteristics of that thing... )

So the inference is pretty straightforward. If you can find a time period where a particular law in question isn't valued by the specified large majority, then you'd have shown that particular law isn't in that class. I'm merely pointing out we can pretty much be sure there are some laws in that class, such as "Do no murder" or "Do not steal".

While I can't be absolutely sure the moon is still in orbit...I can be reasonably sure that it is, based on many instances.

Ergo, a lot of instances, without any exceptions, is about as much proof as anything can get.
 
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