Can God be moral?

[Heyo]

Heyo is a name that represents 1 out of 7 billion people.

God is a concept that is different for every person. So there are as many gods as there are people and then some (as some people believe in multiple gods).

So Heyo is not one.

So god is not one.

Prior to making absurd arguments like this, understand the concept of God addressed in the topic.

It qualifies "Biblical". Which is a bit ambiguous. In parts of the bible there is only one but in others there are multiple. So I go with multiple as that is more consistent as the parts that are talking about only one can simply omit the others without stating so.

Sorry mate. That was truly pathetic.

It was adequate.


And that is just about your misconceptions about the god concept. I didn't even address your misconception about objectivity. Objectivity doesn't rest on the numbers of entities holding an objective position related to the total number of entities of that kind.
If I were the last human on earth, would that make my morals objective?

 

[Brian2]

That was one of the issues I mentioned in the OP. So would this logic apply to humans as well? And if not why, we can also be the creators or caretaker of others, like our children for instance? It's wrong for parents to kill them, but if God did it, it would be perfectly acceptable?

Parents do judge and execute judgement on their children.
In the Bible in the Law this judgement did include the potential for judging your child as liable for death. (probably there for a bit of weight behind the authority of the parent and not used much if ever)
It is also a judgement by God who is the King and lawgiver for Israel. (Deut 21:18-21)
Judgement of death is allowed by God and so why would God be seen as immoral to do what He allows us to do?
It is the same with Kings. God allows Kings to defend their land in war and so why would God be judged as immoral for doing the same with His nation of Israel?

 

[firedragon]

God is a concept that is different for every person.

Thats not relevant to this thread.

 

[Nimos]

More precisely, objective is something that doesn't hinge on a subject (human or other). E.g. laws of nature are considered objective.
That alone poses a problem for a personal god. With it being a person, all morals created by it are its subjective morals.
"10 Commandments? Well that is, like, your opinion, man."

I see what you mean, but the argument usual goes that you need a "moral giver" or what to say, obviously a God. Which in nature is moral superior to us, the creator etc. and therefore is the judge of right and wrong.

I watched this debate, which is not particular good on anyone's parts I think. But at least to me, the Muslim speaker draws a lot of wrong conclusions and throw in a lot of assumptions. Especially his example with the pen, where he ask which have more value the pen or him, and that for an atheist it doesn't matter. Basically saying that its 50/50. This argument is extremely poor, first of all because it obvious from living in this world, that atheists do not judge things like this, if we did, atheists would be extremely dangerous unpredictable, so honestly I don't even know what he would conclude with it. But its very clear to me, that he doesn't understand what drives atheists. And to solve it, he basically just throw in God, because he sort of ran into a wall in his life.

But anyway you or others can watch his opening, its not that long and see how it usually goes, and even though he doesn't directly say it, he could as well say that atheists basically have no reason to be moral and might as well go around rape and killing everyone, just for doing it. Yet it completely fly passed his head, how his own religion in many countries treat people, completely destroying his argument

 

[Colt]

Please tell me you are not this naive.

• The Flood
• The night of Passover
• The UN-parting of the red Sea
• Sodom and Gomorrah
• A bunch of kids who made fun of some bald guy and were mauled by bears when he cursed them in the name of the lord

I could probably come up with some more. This is the reason the writer of the OP talked about God killing as a simple fact. It is written in the Christian's books plainly and obviously. If you believe The Bible, then God kills people. Plain and simple and undeniable. If you don't believe The Bible - then I am proud of you, but we may need to talk about some other things you DO believe that you have no business believing.

I don't believe the vastly exaggerated history of the Israelites.

 

[Nimos]

You cannot bring in religious scripture to discuss a philosophical discussion about establishing God and morality. Thats an argument from a empirical premise in a fundamental discussion which is an oxymoron.

Nevertheless now you have done your oP so I presume you cannot or won't change it.

Now you have made an inference that the Ten Commandments is mentioned in the Quran in various places. Can you show me where the Quran says "Do not kill"?

As I pointed out in the OP, is that I took it from another side, if the Quran doesn't say it and think, encourage or doesn't care about killing others, that is fine with me, I no issue with it, in that case just remove the Quran from the list.

Well in regards to objective morality and whether something is immoral or not. Based on the definitions, we need a standard. If God exist, he is the only one with the authority to make objective morals. Wouldn't you agree with that?

But for someone to be immoral, they need to compromise the standard. Humans in general could and does this a lot, but God also need to follow his own objective standards or he would be immoral. We don't set standards for God. So for the morals to be objectively true, God can't break them either, despite him having created them.

Again, as you said, you seem to disagree with the OP, that killing is not an issue in the Quran and God in it, so I guess it might not be relevant to you. But for people of Christianity or Judaism, where God don't want people to kill, its relevant I guess.

 

[Nimos]

Oh, I see. I don’t believe the vastly exaggerated history of the Israelites. Noah’s flood is silly and never happed as depicted. But if the OT was true then you would have a good point. The OT is terribly inconsistent. Jesus didn’t behave anything like the OT God!

Fair enough, but that is probably a discussion you should have with the Jews My only point is that the NT wouldn't make any sense without the OT, because you would have no clue what half the stuff they are talking about would mean. But that is just my opinion.

 

[firedragon]

As I pointed out in the OP, is that I took it from another side, if the Quran doesn't say it and think, encourage or doesn't care about killing others, that is fine with me,

Dont make things up.

Quran doesn't say "Do not kill".

Murder and killing is two different things, the Quran says not to kill innocents. But since you just made up such a bogus rant in this sentence about "killing, encouraging, doesnt care about killing others" it is obvious you are just dishonestly making things up in an Internet forum as if you would get promoted for that kind of deceit, no point of any discussion really.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I don't believe the vastly exaggerated history of the Israelites.

Well hey - that's a start.

 

[Nimos]

Parents do judge and execute judgement on their children.
In the Bible in the Law this judgement did include the potential for judging your child as liable for death. (probably there for a bit of weight behind the authority of the parent and not used much if ever)
It is also a judgement by God who is the King and lawgiver for Israel. (Deut 21:18-21)
Judgement of death is allowed by God and so why would God be seen as immoral to do what He allows us to do?
It is the same with Kings. God allows Kings to defend their land in war and so why would God be judged as immoral for doing the same with His nation of Israel?

And parents should do that, but there is a difference between raising your child and owning your child. If you are in your good right to kill your child, if they curse you, then something is wrong in my opinion.

God as the creator, at least in my opinion, should be judged equally in that regard. Simply because you are a creator doesn't give you the right to do whatever you please, without also being responsible for your actions. The reason it applies to God even more so, is because people claim that he is treating people equally all around the world, that he weren't only for the Jews, yet he kills a lot of people that goes against them, shouldn't he value all humans life equally, if he is God of everyone?

 

[Nimos]

Dont make things up.

Quran doesn't say "Do not kill".

Murder and killing is two different things, the Quran says not to kill innocents. But since you just made up such a bogus rant in this sentence about "killing, encouraging, doesnt care about killing others" it is obvious you are just dishonestly making things up in an Internet forum as if you would get promoted for that kind of deceit, no point of any discussion really.

If you disagree with the quote in the OP, I have no problem with it, as I said just ignore it. Im not going to have a discussion about whether or not, it is stated directly like that in the Quran or not, a lot of other people seem to disagree with you.

I don't care enough about the Quran and whether its stated directly like that in it, to bother taking the discussion, I have seen enough debates and heard enough from other Muslims, that seem to disagree with you. So take the fight to them.

And if you want, Ill remove the Quran from the OP, I have no issue with that, I honestly don't care about the Quran specifically?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

And if you want, Ill remove the Quran from the OP, I have no issue with that, I honestly don't care about the Quran specifically?

I very much enjoy this sentiment. I think I will empty this more often. "I just don't care about it specifically." Makes things so much simpler, and gets a point across that is far better than agonizing and debating over every single detail.

 

[KerimF]

It is often stated by religious people that objective morality comes from God (Biblical), but is it really possible for him to be moral under his own rules?

So can God be moral? And if so why?

You are right if we see God referring to a 'Supreme Judge/Ruler' (as Allah for example), much like all formal religious believers around the world are supposed to do.

But Jesus, as presented on the today's Gospel by his sayings, doesn't bring any imposed law to be obeyed or rituals to be observed. If he does, I would see in him, in these days, just another person (or character) whose message is to fool certain multitudes in the name of a god.

Let me explore why the TRUE WILL (or True God, if you like) behind my existence has no need, at all, imposing any law/rules on humans.

[1] The human living fleshes (of atheists, theists or else) are all pre-programmed to follow a complex set of instructions which are embedded already, known as instincts, by their Creative Will.

[2] Since all humans were 'forced' to exist in the time/space realm 'temporarily' (yes, it wasn't a choice for them to exist or not, temporarily), the TRUE WILL behind their existence has no reason, at all, to let any of them be accountable for ANYTHING he may do while alive. After all, all human living fleshes and the entire world will end up, sooner or later, to NOTHING (by the way, all other created living things are not supposed to know/perceive this while they also try their best following their instincts for their survival as long as possible)

[3] If I assume that Whoever this True Will may represent will gain or lose something (as being happier or angry) if a human does this or that, it leads me to the illogical fact that my God (abbreviation of 'Whoever my Creative Will represents') could be controlled remotely by any created human!

This study is based on a general view because there are always exceptions to the rule.

For example, will all humans end up to NOTHING? Of course not, otherwise there would be no purpose at all in creating this huge universe for humans to exist in it (at least on the planet, Earth).
It happens that not all humans are created to have a human living flesh only to take care of and by which the material world could be served by building it and destroying it as well. And, Jesus came to bring knowledge (not law) about how to avoid returning to NOTHING if someone perceives also in him a living entity which is different from his flesh.

Therefore, the notion of 'moral' leads us to man's justice only which, in turn, reflects the application of one's instincts on others; it may vary from one person to another, and from one region to another. And what could be known as 'objective morality' is actually the 'moral' imposed by the most powerful rich group in a region. For example, a 'moral' in a country may define an imposed list on which the country's friends and enemies are listed. In fact, such a 'moral' list exists and has to be observed by the people in most countries around the world. For example, if someone kills another human (better if more than one) while serving the 'moral' of his ruling system, religious or political, it is seen as an act of heroism.

Who has ears will hear

 

[Nimos]

I very much enjoy this sentiment. I think I will empty this more often. "I just don't care about it specifically." Makes things so much simpler, and gets a point across that is far better than agonizing and debating over every single detail.

I don't mean it out of disrespect, being clear is important. But I wrote specifically in the OP "Im going to use this text as basis for this (If they are wrong, let me know and explain why they are)"

So Im not stating that these are absolute truth, but that if people disagree, they can let me know, without being smug about it and accusing me of just making up things. If I wanted to do that, I would have written it in a completely different way. And the reason, I wrote it in the first place was because of Islam, as my general impression from listening to Muslims, is that this is not something that is well looked upon, but weren't 100% sure. Also the quote doesn't say that it is written exactly like that in all other religions, but again explicitly say that this is the Christian version.

Various Christian and Jewish traditions have different wordings for the Ten Commandments. They can be numbered differently. They appear in various forms in the Bible. This is a Christian version:

So the last option if this offend Muslims, is that they can either ignore it, or that im willing to remove it. I honestly think, I made it quite clear so people would understand what I meant.

 

[firedragon]

If you disagree with the quote in the OP, I have no problem with it, as I said just ignore it. Im not going to have a discussion about whether or not, it is stated directly like that in the Quran or not, a lot of other people seem to disagree with you.

What is the disagreement and which verse?

I ask since your post contains the Quran which is in conflict to what you claimed. Its always the right approach to be precise.

If you want to know what the Quran says, it clearly says that you cannot take a life of an innocent, and if you do it is like killing all of humanity. But it does not say "You cannot kill" because it prescribes death penalty for murder of innocents.

Be precise. And Nimos, dont make things up. You did.

 

[Colt]

Fair enough, but that is probably a discussion you should have with the Jews My only point is that the NT wouldn't make any sense without the OT, because you would have no clue what half the stuff they are talking about would mean. But that is just my opinion.

Which is a great point! The Son of God was confronted with what Judaism believed, with their inaccurate expectations of a Jewish Messiah. But without those “expectations” of a deliverer, what would Jesus even “be” in the minds of his followers??? Jesus was divinely diplomatic in managing erroneous expectations while relying on those assumptions to teach his gospel. In doing so he chose truths from the OT scriptures but left the rest to die on the vine.

 

[firedragon]

So the last option if this offend Muslims, is that they can either ignore it, or that im willing to remove it. I

Dont misrepresent what was said Nimos. And dont ignore what you said.

"if the Quran doesn't say it and think, encourage or doesn't care about killing others, that is fine with me,"

Thats absolutely a made up statement no one made. I understand you have not read the Quran or has no education in Islam. Its not really necessary. But what you or anyone needs is the humility to clarify and hear people out and try to understand what is being said rather than making things like that up. And now, please try not to make "Muslims being offended" at your OP. Its your statement above that is just made up. No one said that.

 

[Colt]

Well hey - that's a start.

Like everything else on an evolutionary world, the Gods have decreed that human wisdom must evolve.

 

[Nimos]

Dont misrepresent what was said Nimos. And dont ignore what you said.

"if the Quran doesn't say it and think, encourage or doesn't care about killing others, that is fine with me,"

Thats absolutely a made up statement no one made. I understand you have not read the Quran or has no education in Islam. Its not really necessary. But what you or anyone needs is the humility to clarify and hear people out and try to understand what is being said rather than making things like that up. And now, please try not to make "Muslims being offended" at your OP. Its your statement above that is just made up. No one said that.

Christ almighty.

I didn't write the damn text, its a quote!!

And it is written at the bottom of that quote:

The Qur'an does not list the Ten Commandments explicitly, but their substance appears in various places.

I have from the moment you told me, that it was not correct, been honest with you. And you simply seem to ignore what I reply to you.

"So do you want me to add that it is not stated in the Quran? or simply remove it from the OP? Just let me know. But stop accusing me of lying, please."

(If I could make the text blink I would do it. )

 

[firedragon]

Christ almighty.

I didn't write the damn text, its a quote!!

"if the Quran doesn't say it and think, encourage or doesn't care about killing others, that is fine with me," is what YOU WROTE.