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Can God Experience Pleasure?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
With you, either sarcasm or courtesy gets me the same results.

I never, ever, ever post anything about my beliefs that implies I have all the answers or that I know that my religion is any better than anyone else's. You, on the other hand, cannot manage to have a dialogue with me without saying something negative about my religion. Thanks to your attitude towards anyone who disagrees with you, I would by now undoubtedly have started to form some negative prejudices against Baha'is in general; fortunately, I know too many very civil and courteous ones to do so.

I only stated clear facts about what LDS and other traditional Christian beliefs, and they claim to "know" and teach the nature of God. It is hard to dialogue with individual beliefs, because individuals can claim and do claim many different beliefs.

If you consider it "negative" that the Mormon church and all the traditional churches claim to "know" the nature of God from the human perspective that is your problem.

From the Baha'i perspective God is unknowable as to his nature. You may cite anything you wish from the Baha'i Faith perspective and I will respond
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Maybe if you could explain how anything can create its creator, I might be able to see some logic in your post.

It is not that fallible human create the Creator. It is the problem that fallible humans create many different descriptions and images of the God or God(s), and they are most often different descriptions and images, and claims to "know" the true images and descriptions.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It is not that fallible human create the Creator. It is the problem that fallible humans create many different descriptions and images of the God or God(s), and they are most often different descriptions and images, and claims to "know" the true images and descriptions.
That, right there, is a huge problem, when metaphors are treated as corporeal beings.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I only stated clear facts about what LDS and other traditional Christian beliefs, and they claim to "know" and teach the nature of God. It is hard to dialogue with individual beliefs, because individuals can claim and do claim many different beliefs.

If you consider it "negative" that the Mormon church and all the traditional churches claim to "know" the nature of God from the human perspective that s your problem.

From the Baha'i perspective God is unknowable as to his nature. You may cite anything you wish from the Baha'i Faith perspective and I will respond
It's all "perspective" -- yours, mine, and every body else's. Some people (regardless of their religion) claim to "know" what is not fully "knowable." I believe that God does want us to know him, though, and that when we insist on declaring Him to be unknowable, we're setting up barriers between us and Him that He never intended that we establish and that limit our developing a relationship with Him. Some Baha'is, for example, claim to know that "God's attributes, like compassion are a given of the nature of God without reason nor cause." You can either know and understand God's nature, but you can't claim that we don't know this and then make a statement that implies otherwise.

And frankly, if I want to discuss the Baha'i Faith, there are quite a number of really nice Baha'is on this forum I can do so with. I can fortunately afford to be quite selective in who I choose to talk to.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Maybe if you could explain how anything can create its creator, I might be able to see some logic in your post.
That's easy. People project qualities upon God all the time. For instance, someone raised in a strict parent family, will tend to see God reflective other their household, complete with expectations and punishments for disobedience to the master of the house. Those raised in a "nurturant parent" home have an entirely different view and expectation of what God looks like; kind, gentle, forgiving, loving guiding etc.

Now take that to a cultural level. Those who live within a tribal culture will tend to see God as the Warlord of Warlords. Those within an Ethnocentric peoples, such as the Jews, will project the "King of Kings" image of God. Those who live in Cosmopolitan societies, where you have mixes of cultures and people together, will gravitate towards seeing God as the God of all peoples where there, "Is neither Greek nor Jew, but all are one in Christ". Those who live in a Global Society will see God as the God of all religions living in the hearts of all men, regardless of race, religion, creed, etc.

There are countless possible examples to continue with, but it's pretty obvious that "man creates God in his own image", practically without fail, save for the highly rare mystic which takes all thoughts and ideas and projections of ourselves about God and does away with them, where Truth is simply Self-Evident Reality, and not a propositional truth that can be stated in words, let alone written in a creed or statement of faith.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
That's easy. People project qualities upon God all the time. For instance, someone raised in a strict parent family, will tend to see God reflective other their household, complete with expectations and punishments for disobedience to the master of the house. Those raised in a "nurturant parent" home have an entirely different view and expectation of what God looks like; kind, gentle, forgiving, loving guiding etc.

Now take that to a cultural level. Those who live within a tribal culture will tend to see God as the Warlord of Warlords. Those within an Ethnocentric peoples, such as the Jews, will project the "King of Kings" image of God. Those who live in Cosmopolitan societies, where you have mixes of cultures and people together, will gravitate towards seeing God as the God of all peoples where there, "Is neither Greek nor Jew, but all are one in Christ". Those who live in a Global Society will see God as the God of all religions living in the hearts of all men, regardless of race, religion, creed, etc.

There are countless possible examples to continue with, but it's pretty obvious that "man creates God in his own image", practically without fail, save for the highly rare mystic which takes all thoughts and ideas and projections of ourselves about God and does away with them, where Truth is simply Self-Evident Reality, and not a propositional truth that can be stated in words, let alone written in a creed or statement of faith.
I don't believe that projecting qualities upon God is the same thing as creating Him. I believe that He exists with whatever qualities and attributes He may have, entirely independent of anything we might perceive about Him. I believe that He, on the other hand, did literally create our spirits (that part of us which gives us life) and is not merely perceiving us to be what He wants us to be. He sees us as we are; we see Him as we believe He is. Those are two very different things.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It's all "perspective" -- yours, mine, and every body else's. Some people (regardless of their religion) claim to "know" what is not fully "knowable." I believe that God does want us to know him, though, and that when we insist on declaring Him to be unknowable, we're setting up barriers between us and Him that He never intended that we establish and that limit our developing a relationship with Him.

Not meaningful in the discussion.

Some Baha'is, for example, claim to know that "God's attributes, like compassion are a given of the nature of God without reason nor cause." You can either know and understand God's nature, but you can't claim that we don't know this and then make a statement that implies otherwise.

Not some, but pretty much all Baha'is believe we can know God's attributes in human nature and Creation such as compassion, justice, and love, and this is not the way the Christian denominations describe and claim to know God.

And frankly, if I want to discuss the Baha'i Faith, there are quite a number of really nice Baha'is on this forum I can do so with. I can fortunately afford to be quite selective in who I choose to talk to.

Suit yourself
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
To expand that a little further, it's our minds that impose limitations. Because we think in terms of language, we see the world, and God, in dualistic terms. It is an artificial framework of our minds superimposed upon the world or God, which then becomes the reality of it to us.

Agreed.

By dualistic here I am meaning a division between subject and object, a world of separation between the subject that is doing the perceiving, and the object, or that which is perceived. We split this into what is inside, and what is outside us, between a "this" and a "that", because we process and filter everything of experience into our minds through these linguistic structures which alter their reality into a reflection of our own minds.

Though seemingly impossible to us, this can of course be overcome.

Agreed although I believe there will always be limits. We are capable of having a perception of reality that transcends the material, though at first glance the hurdles may seem enormous.

From Nature, which you will take note I capitalized here. I view the whole of creation as an expression of the Divine, and all natural processes as Spirit in motion, or God creating. The key to this is removing our anthropomorphic as well as anthropocentric projections of things like God had intentions that we humans should exists as us, in this time and place, and individually mapped out our lives for us, that humans are the apple of God's eye, that we alone were created in his image, and so on and so forth. To persist in thinking this way, we end up trapped within a feedback loop of contradictions that force us to either ignore them, or come up with loopy rationalizations to excuse them.

The Baha'i Faith like other Abrahamic Faiths sees humanity as a central purpose to God's creation. Assuming we can not directly know God (unless you wish to equate God and His Creation as being One) then how can we know? The Abrahamics answer is through His Messengers. For you this way of thinking is foolishness (contradictions and loopy rationalisations). I doubt if too many Abrahamic faith adherents would agree.

That is unnecessary. It's just like those who deny evolution in order to preserve their reading of the book of Genesis. It doesn't seem to occur to them that it's okay to change how they were thinking about it in the first place, rather than fighting against solid evidence which informs us of a different reality than what we were imagining in our minds. Actually though, I think it does occur to them their thinking is wrong, and that is what terrifies them, because it is their thinking alone they are looking to for their "salvation", as it appears to them in their minds.

Hmmm. Most Abrahamic Faiths do not interpret genesis literally. Muslims do not and only a minority of Christians do. I suspect most Jews don't either. No Baha'is do.

I will say this, that inspiration comes from within us, from that Divine Nature that is the Foundation of all of creation itself. It wells up from the Wellspring of Creation through us in our forms, which includes of course our minds. It comes rolling forth in images projected from our minds, inspired by the soul, onto the night skies above where we see images of this God we ourselves place above us, as something the mind can touch and see, just as it sees and touches the world it perceives as outside itself, such as a friend, or a parent, or tree, or a stream or a mountain or the sky.

But we can see God beyond, and before, all of these projected images, all of these anthropomorphic views of the Divine. You simply see them, recognize them, then see what they were pointing to in our minds and set them aside. Rather, they naturally dissolve when you see the Reality of what they point to. They are no longer necessary. God is seen, within everything you perceive, including yourself. God never was, nor ever can be external or other to us, in the way we see another person as "not us". To continue to see God in those terms, is to remain trapped in a reality of separation from God, others, and our own selves. The term that could be applied to describe that state would be "hell".

What comes to mind is a quote from the Christian mystic Meister Eckhart. "I pray God make me free of God, so that I may know God in his unconditioned being". The anthropomorphic God, is conditional. And a conditional God, is not God.

It is true that we can be the recipients of Divine inspiration and that inspiration can come through the natural world.

Baha'u'llah experienced a mystical vision amidst desolate surrounding in a prison where it appeared certain He would die. He later spent two years in the mountains of Kurdistan where He meditated and later had discussions with Sufis (a mystical sect of Islam). This became the basis of His first major work, the seven valleys and four valleys. It explores in some depth the question of whether or not we really need the likes of Jesus or Muhummad or we would be better off freeing ourselves from their influence.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Seven Valleys And the Four Valleys
 
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I'm assuming you're reply has basis in Genesis 1:27, which I anticipated ITT.

If my assumption is correct, and if He attributed His qualities unto man, why do we have sociopaths, murders, rapists, and other miscreants roaming the earth?

And while I'm anticipating a Satan reference in upcoming posts, I'll preempt them by asking why He would introduce such malevolent attributes to mankind, or question the relevance to the OP.
If you examine the behaviour of Jehovah in the Old Testament where he commands his followers to commit genocide and other atrocities it is clear that he exhibits all the psychological traits of a psychopath himself. He appear to be mentally unstable and continually angry with his 'creation'.
 
Yes, God can experience all of these things because He is not just some invisible force that fills the universe, He is my Father in Heaven. He is like my earthly father (who was pretty wonderful himself), except that He has all of the attributes of an absolutely perfect parent. I can't imagine a parent who had no emotions, who was never happy or sad or angry or forgiving.
Then if the Abrahamic god can experience emotions then this is an indicator that he himself is not without 'sin', surely?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
But you don't think that man creates God in his own image all the time? You don't see people's ideas of God looking a whole lot like an idealized image of themselves? Haven't you ever wondered why so many people have so many different ways of envisioning God?
I believe I said both happen. However, it doesn't change Gen 1:27
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
If you examine the behaviour of Jehovah in the Old Testament where he commands his followers to commit genocide and other atrocities it is clear that he exhibits all the psychological traits of a psychopath himself. He appear to be mentally unstable and continually angry with his 'creation'.
Yes, you can view it that way. It is also like equating the same thing to the US in the bombing of Hiroshima but eliminating all the mitigating factors such as Nanking and it's roots that would have permeated the world.
 
Yes, you can view it that way. It is also like equating the same thing to the US in the bombing of Hiroshima but eliminating all the mitigating factors such as Nanking and it's roots that would have permeated the world.
The USA-the only country to have ever murdered people with nuclear weapons not only went unpunished but now has the gall to dictate to the rest of the world which countries may develop them. The hypocrisy is astounding.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Baha'i Faith like other Abrahamic Faiths sees humanity as a central purpose to God's creation.
I see this as their central limitation then. I'll explain why. To presume we are the "best" of God's creation, or that everything in the entire Creation itself has us up at the pinnacle, is reflective of the height of self-importance. It is the height of the ego projecting itself into God's scripture writ large upon the Universe. The true key to the Realization of God is not our "specialness" held in our own eyes about ourselves, not in inflation of self-worth and importance projected onto how we imagine God must see us because that would mean something important to our egos, but rather is is accessed through our humility. I see this as a central barrier to the Realization of God and Reality as it is.

We are special, of course, but that specialness is not realized in our imagining we are "more special" than the whole of Creation. Rather we are "uniquely special", just as the earthworm is equally, neither less nor more, uniquely special in the whole of Creation. God does not have a hierarchy of rankings of specialness, some "more special" than others. To assume so reflects the mind of a young child who imagines its parent loves its sibling more than themselves, or the other way around that in order to feel good about themselves, they imagine their parents love them more. The truth is rather, that all creations of God are equally, and perfectly brilliant and shining creations in what they are. God does not play favorites, but favors all. And well it should be, as all are creations of God in whatever form or shape they occur, including our human one.

The more elevating view held in humility is that we are one beautiful shining diamond among the myriad other beautiful shining diamonds of God's creation is enormously liberating and empowering. We don't have to be "better", than everything else God creates, we just have to be the truest to what we are in how we were created. To view ourselves as "better" than the rest of God's Creation is human arrogance of the human ego, and that prevents us from truly seeing God because we are instead admiring ourselves with one eye in the mirror, rather than seeing Truth through the eyes of humility which stops with all the self-admiration and its attendant over-compensations.

Assuming we can not directly know God (unless you wish to equate God and His Creation as being One) then how can we know?
That is a major assumption, and one which has countless times been demonstrated as incorrect, not only by direct personal experience of people the world over, but as a matter of reason itself. Why wouldn't we be able to? Is this some inherent "cap" God build into its creation to block access to him? That would make no sense. How can God create something that is separated from the nature of God, when that creation is an expression of the Divine itself? You see, all of this problem begins and ends with the human perception of itself and creation at large, beginning with the ego's-eye view and ending with the same.

I can tell you from personal experience that we can quite directly know God. It's as easy as opening your eyes to see what is fully Present at all times, in all things created, radiating through like all suns of all universes at once in even the smallest speck of dust. It fills the mind and the soul and the body with its Brilliance. It is Love, Light, and Life as the foundation and Source of all Reality that we breathe, eat and sleep in every day of our existence in this skin-sack we call a human. Each breath we take moves the entire universe and the being of God through us. Spirit moves through everything, to everything, and from everything to everything, from nowhere, from everywhere. And our minds see clearly the Truth of Existence itself. And that Truth is God.

Everything I just described is my own personal way of talking about my own experience. And if that isn't direct, well.... :)

The Abrahamics answer is through His Messengers. For you this way of thinking is foolishness (contradictions and loopy rationalisations). I doubt if too many Abrahamic faith adherents would agree.
This is not what I was referring to as foolish when I stated that. However, I do see this as an error, or rather as an externalization of something not yet realized internally in the minds of the followers of this way of imagining God as outside of themselves. Again, logically alone this wouldn't make sense at that level since an Infinite God cannot be other to our outside of Creation. To be outside of something, to be separate from it, make you a finite being with limitations and boundaries around you. You could not claim to be Infinite and separate at the same time. This is the limitation of dualistic thinking. It breaks down when you approach the Infinite, which is God. To define God as dualistic, separating the subject from the object, is not God at all, but is rather a reflection of our dualistic thinking. The dualistic God, is an anthropomorphic God. And that thinking itself, puts the cap that blocks us from seeing God or Reality as it truly is.

Ideas that prophets are miraculous almost supernatural beings who God selectively has chosen, is all a creation of the human mind seeing God in dualistic terms, and particularly one that imagines itself separate from God and seeks through the ego mind to find its way back to Source. The reality of it is, the secret is, to stop seeking with the ego-mind. Stop the ego-mind, pull back the curtain, and simply see. It's that easy, yet as frightening as face death itself for most of us. Until you do it.

Hmmm. Most Abrahamic Faiths do not interpret genesis literally.
If you believe that humans are higher and more special than all of creation, you are reading it literally. If you deny that evolution brought forth humans from other non-human species (which I have had a very long discussion about with a Bahai' on these forums here), that is reading it literally. If however, like me, you read it as a story of humans about themselves, written allegorically as an "as if" reality, a metaphor about ourselves in the Mystery of Creation, then such demands of a God who demands obedience of us, a serpent to tempt us off the path, etc, are held as informative stories about our minds, not the Truth of God itself. It's a beautiful story full of symbolic truths about how we see ourselves. And that is true for the whole of scriptures as well.

To assume these are magical supernatural truths that miraculously bypass the natural processes of creation and the unfolding of truth in our minds, is well, more like the way a child would imagine the world as full of magical forces that miraculously just make things appear out of nothing. One can still see the "magic" of Creation in all its natural processes, such as evolution, without needing to limit how one thinks to that particular set of eyes thinking about itself in magical terms. That's not meant as an insult, but rather to show there is a way to see the truth of it, to hold that Baby, without having to preserve the bathwater of mythic thought.

Muslims do not and only a minority of Christians do. I suspect most Jews don't either. No Baha'is do.
Actually, I think that is not true. Would you say you fully accept that evolution is correct in saying we evolved from non-human animal forms? I think most people do accept it literally, at least in some of the major ways, such as God created humans after the animals as the pinnacle of his own Creation, humans at the top. That is what a literal reading of Genesis will give you. That assumption is what you started this reply with.

It is true that we can be the recipients of Divine inspiration and that inspiration can come through the natural world.
It's much more than that. Of course inspiration which points one to God. But then there is Realization itself, where the veil is pulled back and we see Reality as it is, all through the natural world, as well as the subtle, as well as the causal world. "There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard". (Ps. 19).

Baha'u'llah experienced a mystical vision amidst desolate surrounding in a prison where it appeared certain He would die. He later spent two years in the mountains of Kurdistan where He meditated and later had discussions with Sufis (a mystical sect of Islam). This became the basis of His first major work, the seven valleys and four valleys. It explores in some depth the question of whether or not we really need the likes of Jesus or Muhummad or we would be better off freeing ourselves from their influence.

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Seven Valleys And the Four Valleys
I'll look into that and see what he has to say and compare it with my own experience. One thing I wonder though, is that maybe this whole "Messengers" only club with exclusive access to God whereas the rest of creation is somehow incapable of the same level of realization, is not a teaching of these people themselves, but rather the followers who themselves lacked Realization and assume because they don't, no one other than the prophet they adore can either? Like Alan Watts said, "The church kicked Jesus upstairs".
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe I said both happen. However, it doesn't change Gen 1:27
It does in this sense: God creates man in his own image, then man turns around and creates God in his own, which in turn creates religions about themselves as this God which is an image of themselves; the tribal warlord God, the universal God of Love, the social reforming God, etc. God creates man, then man creates God in his own image as a symbol of their own ascension of themselves which they turn to in order to become this image they created. Meanwhile, God doesn't care.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
If you examine the behaviour of Jehovah in the Old Testament where he commands his followers to commit genocide and other atrocities it is clear that he exhibits all the psychological traits of a psychopath himself. He appear to be mentally unstable and continually angry with his 'creation'.

I believe this reflects an ancient world view of God and justifying war against nonbelievers. It is problem for religions that rely on their own ancient scriptures as actually the word of God. History has demonstrated using scripture to justify wars and killing nonbelievers.
 
I believe this reflects an ancient world view of God and justifying war against nonbelievers. It is problem for religions that rely on their own ancient scriptures as actually the word of God. History has demonstrated using scripture to justify wars and killing nonbelievers.
It seems to be a problem that is specific to the Abrahamic religions which are hardly renown for their tolerance of different beliefs.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
In a recent thread, it was suggested that God can be pleased by one action over another.

Can God experience pleasure? Can God be happy? sad? angry? forgiving?
Pleasure, sure. Pleasure due to human actions, though, is far more unlikely IMO.

It seems to me that a deity suitable for religious practice must by definition be both relatable from a human perspective and sublime or at least superlative in some sense. That may sometimes take the form of heavy or negative emotions, but only in very specific, controlled contexts. Most of the time practice deities are very, for lack of a better word, solar.

Is it productive in your faith to attribute human qualities to God? Why?
Nope. It is just a distraction. But sometimes it can be a productive distraction - or at least a pleasant one.

Actively seeking to attribute human qualities to a practice deity is probably not worth the trouble.

On the other hand, acknowledging that one has formed such a picture or has the tendency to do so is very much worth the effort and may easily lead to a significant spiritual experience and personal growth.
 
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