Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

[Dawnofhope]

Jesus said John 14:6 (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
So you don’t like any religion who says, ‘my way is the highway,’ the question should be asked, ‘by what authority does He claim this?’ Well briefly, Jesus Christ was the One who died, was buried and He rose again from the dead. He is alive again and showed Himself and confirmed this fact before all those who knew Him. Thus He showed that He is the Lord of life and death. All the founders of all the other religions are either dead in their tombs or are dead and they stayed dead.
It sounds like you don’t like this or that about different gods. You cannot go into a spiritual supermarket and say, I’ll have a little bit of this god, and a little bit of that god, and I’ll make my own god. The question is not whether I like this god or that god, but which God is true and then work to understand that God. Challenging God as being arrogant will get you nowhere. If He is the true God and responsible for your existence, then He has the right be that way. Certainty for eternity.

When Jesus spoke those words it was during the week leading up to His crucifixion. He had just predicted His martrydom to His disciples who were understandably bereft. He was comforting His disciples, who wre all Jews, by reminding them He was the promised Messiah. He was not speaking about other religions such as Hinduism or Buddhism as they were not well known. There is no mention of these religions in the NT anywhere. Islam wasn't to emerge for nearly 600 years.

Unfortunately two thousand years on and Christianity and Islam have history with India. Both have colonised India for considerable lengths of time and their treatment and attitude towards Hindu's has often fallen far short of the ideals within both religions.

But go ahead and tell my Hindu friend how wrong he is and how right you are.

 

[Estro Felino]

Can we move beyond the dichotomies of two world views simultaneously declaring I’m right and you’re wrong.

Adrian, you should understand that you universalize the precepts of your religion, which (if I understood correctly) considers both religions revealed by God.

The entire Christendom (excluding few Churches and groups) is Trinitarian.

If you put yourself into our shoes, you would understand that we Christians feel very badly if some religion like yours (Baha'i...cool name ) says that we are wrong because we consider Jesus both God and the begotten Son of God.
We are not polytheists...we believe in One God.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The Koran (Quran) specifically states the upholding of Jesus' teachings: 254 "Some of the apostles We have endowed more highly than others: Those to whom God hath spoken, He hath raised to the loftiest grade, and to Jesus the son of Mary We gave manifest signs, and we strengthen him with the Holy Spirit. And if God had pleased, they who came after them would not have wrangled after the clear signs had reached them. But into disputes they ell: some of them believed, and some were infidels: yet if God had pleased, they would not have thus wrangled: but God doth what He will." From this verse it seems to me that Jesus' teachings were quite relevant and that there is a clear expectation to take into consideration fundamental views in which Christianity preaches.

That is great you appreciate the reverence Muhammad had for Jesus and Christianity. I'm sure Jesus would have great reverence for both Muhammad and Islam. Unfortunately many adherents of both faiths are true neither to the teachings and spirit of their own religions.

In earlier posts I read the relevance and distortion of gender relevance in which some practitioners of certain religions base their theology on. Once again, if my memory serves me correctly, in the Secrets of Enoch (or from the Lost Books of the Bible) it states the reasoning for God sending a son instead of a daughter was due to the Egyptian worshipping of the sun. I was lead to believe there are certain religions in which believe God may manifest "Himself" as a woman. IMO this is not a truly relevant matter considering if being a believer the omnipotence of in Whom you speak. After all manifestation can and will be whatever God wants it to be with or without anyone's approval, correct?

From a Baha'i perspective God transcends all human concepts such as gender.

The Baha'i Faith has a strong emphasis on gender equality btw.

“The world of humanity has two wings—one is women and the other men,” wrote ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, “Not until both wings are equally developed can the bird fly. Should one wing remain weak, flight is impossible.”

Selected Readings on The equality of men and women

 

[Dawnofhope]

Adrian, you should understand that you universalize the precepts of your religion, which (if I understood correctly) considers both religions revealed by God.

The Baha'i Faith considers there is One God and that Jesus and Muhammad are both 'Manifestations of God' in that they brought forth a revelation from God. That is immediately problematic for many Christians how would be loath to see Christ and Muhammad as equal.

The entire Christendom (excluding few Churches and groups) is Trinitarian.

I grew up Christian (Prebysterian and then Baptist) but became a Baha'i many years ago. I have close contact with Christians who I work with. We have studied the bible together. In a sense as I am a follower of Christ I see myself as no more or less of a Christian than any other Christian.

I am aware that most denominations within Christendom believe in the trinity. Exceptions are the JWs and unitarians. I'm aware of the history of Christianity, particualrly Arianism and how the 4th century saw theological differences between various bishops resulted through councils, that resulted in the Nicene Creed.

In summary, I'm not entirely niave when it comes to Christianity lol. There's always plenty to learn though.

If you put yourself into our shoes, you would understand that we Christians feel very badly if some religion like yours (Baha'i...cool name ) says that we are wrong because we consider Jesus both God and the begotten Son of God.
We are not polytheists...we believe in One God.

I agree its difficult when religions such as Islam, the Baha'i Faith, and Christianity who all revere Jesus have what appears to be contradictory and irreconcilaible ideas about God and Jesus.

You have quite wisely highlighted that often its best to just respect each other's faith and not discuss the details.

On the other hand I'm prepared to look into the different beliefs in all three Faiths with anyone that's feels able to do so in a courteous and respectful manner.

I'm more interested in learning than winning debates.

 

[stvdv]

30 jun 2018 stvdv 014 20

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So? First how to interpret. If you want to use this to exclude Islam then it's obvious what you look for. Not to reconcile.

So you don’t like any religion who says, ‘my way is the highway,’

Nope. You interpret wrong. I only said that these words create irritation, anger, hate and culminate in war and extinction. I don't like that

Jesus Christ was the One who died, was buried and He rose again from the dead

Why you say this? Is it to exclude Islam or to show Christianity is better than other religions. Islam sees Jesus as a messenger of God.

Thus He showed that He is the Lord of life and death

Your interpretation of "Lord of Life and Death" I would say. Might be God's grace as well. God seems to do these things.

All the founders of all the other religions are either dead in their tombs or are dead and they stayed dead

Again, you seem to be Omniscient. Knowing past, present, future of all founders of all other religions

It sounds like you don’t like this or that about different gods

Nicely put, thanks. But wrong. I respect all Gods. I don't capitalize 1 God and decapitalize others on purpose. That's 1 way how I show my respect

You cannot go into a spiritual supermarket and say, I’ll have a little bit of this god, and a little bit of that god, and I’ll make my own god

I beg your pardon. Who are you to tell me what I should or should not do? I know much better than you what to do for myself. As does God.

The question is not whether I like this god or that god, but which God is true and then work to understand that God

True that is your question. I figure out my question myself.

Challenging God as being arrogant will get you nowhere

I beg your pardon. Better read again. I only said "Arrogance blinds people", and has done for 2000 years.

If He is the true God and responsible for your existence, then He has the right be that way. Certainty for eternity

If He is the true God? Indeed, that is the question. I do my best to never question God, or what He does. Not my call.

 

[stvdv]

30 jun 2018 stvdv 014 21

Adrian, you should understand that you universalize the precepts of your religion, which (if I understood correctly) considers both religions revealed by God.

The entire Christendom (excluding few Churches and groups) is Trinitarian.

If you put yourself into our shoes, you would understand that we Christians feel very badly if some religion like yours (Baha'i...cool name ) says that we are wrong because we consider Jesus both God and the begotten Son of God.
We are not polytheists...we believe in One God.

Thank you "Estro Felino". You put it very nicely and respectfully. Said in this way feels good. I hope other Christians learn from you.
If a Christian says"I believe Jesus is the only way for all", I am totally senang and not offended
If a Christian says"Jesus is the only way for all", is totally different. I am totally senang AND I act if I am not senang
If a Christian says"Jesus is the only way for all [IMHO]", I am totally senang again, all smiley [no need to pretend I am upset]

 

[KT Shamim]

This question is mostly for adherents of Abrahamic Faiths though I have left it open for all to answer and put it in the general debate section to enable us to discuss freely and frankly.

I would consider the answer to be yes, no, or maybe

'Yes' if we are prepared to see God as transcendant above man made concepts. I see God is an unknowable essence. His essence can never be understood by man, anymore than the fetus can conceive of life outside the womb. God wants us to know and worship Him, so He reveals Himself through the likes of Christ and Muhammad. Man listens, thinks he's understood, then creates a theology he sincerely believes is founded on the words God has revealed, but in reality his comprehension is veiled by his vain imaginations.

'No' if we believe that scholars and religious leaders of each religion have faithfully contructed the best theology to represent the true spirit and intent of their founder. If that were true then it would be impossible for the contradictions within Islam and Christianity to be resolved. Either one or the other or both would be false.

I lean strongly towards yes. There is just One God and He has revealed Himself through both Jesus and Muhammad.

Questions, comments, discussion and debate as you will.

It is impossible to reconcile Surah Ikhlas (3rd-last chapter of the Holy Qur'an) with Trinity. Just read the translation here:

[Qur'an Chapter 112 Al-Ikhlas]
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
Say, ‘He is Allah, the One;
‘Allah, the Independent and Besought of all.
‘He begets not, nor is He begotten;
‘And there is none like unto Him.’

But that said, abrahamic faiths can still work together to promote religion:
[Qu'ran 3:65] Say, ‘O People of the Book! come to a word equal between us and you — that we worship none but Allah, and that we associate no partner with Him, and that some of us take not others for Lords beside Allah.’ But if they turn away, then say, ‘Bear witness that we have submitted to God.’

Finally to reconcile the fact that Allah could not have revealed different fundamental truths to Prophet Muhammad (saw) and Prophet Jesus (as) the logical reconciliation offered is that what was originally revealed to founders of all religions was the truth but people ruined it as generations passed.

So we see for example that despite following the same Qur'an there are so many Muslim sects often (unfortunately) at loggerheads with each other.

 

[shunyadragon]

This is an unfortunate fallible human issue, and not the reality of possibilities tor reconciliation acknowledging the fallible human differences between their view of God, which in reality cannot be defined from the human perspective. In reality the view of God from the Jewish, Islamic and Baha'i view of God is easily reconciled.

I thought I might add that the problem of reconciliation of religions goes beyond just reconciling the concept of God. The cultural barrier, and the sense of belonging to generations of traditions are most often insurmountable for most people. The reasons people believe are more strongly related to one's dependency on their sense of community, and sense of belonging then the rational and logical justification for their belief.

 

[ecco]

it is not a Christian view God had a sexual encounter with Mary and she remained a virgin.

That sounds like the Bill Clinton defense.

 

[ecco]

Clearly the Quran speaks highly of Jesus, for example:

“O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say anything concerning Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers . . . “ (Quran 4:171; see also 66:12).

We sure do read things differently. What you refer to as "speaks highly", I read as an admonishment to Christians:

Hey, your Jesus Boy, he ain't no son of God/Allah. He's just someone God/Allah sent around to preach to the Jews.​

 

[Dawnofhope]

We sure do read things differently. What you refer to as "speaks highly", I read as an admonishment to Christians:

Hey, your Jesus Boy, he ain't no son of God/Allah. He's just someone God/Allah sent around to preach to the Jews.​

In some ways religious text can be like a roscharch test where our interpretations are much more about us than whats written, especially reading a single passage in isolation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorschach_test

 

[ecco]

What are you Americans up to!? Does the judicious use of weed help explain the insanity of American politics?

Quite the opposite. The people who have instilled insanity into American politics (strong Christians) are the same people who have historically been against things like alcohol (remember prohibition) and drug usage.

 

[ecco]

You have quite wisely highlighted that often its best to just respect each other's faith and not discuss the details.

A wise man once said: The Devil is in the details.

Respect and Avoid is a long way from Reconciliation of Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God.

If you avoid, you cannot reconcile. By your own comments, your glass is way less than half full.

 

[Dawnofhope]

A wise man once said: The Devil is in the details.

Respect and Avoid is a long way from Reconciliation of Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God.

If you avoid, you cannot reconcile. By your own comments, your glass is way less than half full.

I find it unwise for a person of one faith/worldview to force their views on another.

Both parties need to be willing and able to participate in an interfaith dialogue. It requires mutual respect and maturity.

 

[shunyadragon]

That sounds like the Bill Clinton defense.

. . . or a tRump bragging point, . . . in private.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

The Jews believe YHVH is a name, and that he is the God of Abraham; which Yeshua said he wasn't, and that they don't actually know his father (El Elyon) anymore (Matthew 11:27).

Yeshua said he was Yahavah (Lord to Be), and that his father is the God Most High (Luke 6:32-35), as did Gabriel (Luke 1:32).

Muslims believe the Lord (YHVH) is the same as the God Most High, and don't know the differences like Judaism teaches.

In my opinion.

First off you can stop saying it is your opinion I mean, that is obvious considering none of us are making any scholastic opinions and interpretations with that being said let us do away with titles and names. We know in the scriptures there was a deity a single deity that existed. In the scriptures, it is that same deity that made itself known to the likes of Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus and finally Muhammad (and thereafter mystical visionaries that came after him). My point is regardless of the breakdown all three faiths profess in One God, a single deity that is the author of all existence this is the focal point. You're arguing arbitrary terms that really, you using to justify that all three have nothing in common.

I think what bothers me is when people make opinions and are unfamiliar with the original language and the text but go off what their pastor tells them or what they read off TBN it really runs the discussion down the ground.

Edit: what is your religious background? What particular brand of Christianity do you subscribe to? (i.e. Baptist, Methodist, Protestant).

 

[shunyadragon]

First off you can stop saying it is your opinion I mean, that is obvious considering none of us are making any scholastic opinions and interpretations with that being said let us do away with titles and names. We know in the scriptures there was a deity a single deity that existed. In the scriptures, it is that same deity that made itself known to the likes of Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus and finally Muhammad (and thereafter mystical visionaries that came after him). My point is regardless of the breakdown all three faiths profess in One God, a single deity that is the author of all existence this is the focal point. You're arguing arbitrary terms that really, you using to justify that all three have nothing in common.

I think what bothers me is when people make opinions and are unfamiliar with the original language and the text but go off what their pastor tells them or what they read off TBN it really runs the discussion down the ground.

I object to the Islamic view of 'finally Muhammad.' From the Christian perspective it is 'finally Christ,' and from the Jewish perspective it is 'finally Judaism.' This a awkward dangerous egocentric view of fallible humans playing tribal 'King of the Mountain' that leads to violence and conflict between the religions and their many divisions also staking out their own 'Mountain.'

 

[ecco]

In some ways religious text can be like a roscharch test where our interpretations are much more about us than whats written, especially reading oe passage in isolation

Rorschach test - Wikipedia

You incorrectly assumed that I read just one passage in isolation and took it out of context. That's not the case at all. You made multiple references to scripture and commented on them. However, one of them stood out as more convoluted than the rest.

You stated...

Clearly the Quran speaks highly of Jesus​

... followed by this excerpt...

“O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion, and do not say anything concerning Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers . . . “ (Quran 4:171; see also 66:12).​

An attack on Christianity? I don't see it that what at all.

You, not I, chose to post that passage. Perhaps you can show how you interpret that passage to be anything other than an attack on Christianity. It's a direct slap in the face to people who hold Christianity in the highest regard. It's a direct slap in the face to Christians who believe in the Trinity. It admonishes Christians to follow Allah and not Jesus.

I'd be interested to have you clearly state your interpretation of the passage justifying your conclusion that it "speaks highly of Jesus" and does not attack Christianity.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I object to the Islamic view of 'finally Muhammad.' From the Christian perspective it is 'finally Christ,' and from the Jewish perspective it is 'finally Judaism.' This a awkward dangerous egocentric view of fallible humans playing tribal 'King of the Mountain' that leads to violence and conflict between the religions and their many divisions also staking out their own 'Mountain.'

Well I'm going based on history (as in historical documents that represent Muhammad as the final prophet), and considering Islam has a longer history than Baha'i it is recognizable historically Muhammad is considered according to scholastic theology to be the last prophet in Islam. I was careful in parenthesis to also mention that there are also mystical visionaries that came after who promoted a similar message as Muhammad. Both Baha'i and even Sikhism find their roots in Islam and with that being said, it is important to make these distinctions.

 

[whirlingmerc]

That sounds like the Bill Clinton defense.

No because God can do miracles and the virgin birth is an example and by the way the virgin birth of Christ is agreed on by both Muslims (all types) and Christians (Protestants, Catholics and Eastern Orthodox)

Muslim and Christians agree on the virgin birth of Christ as well as God the creator of heaven and earth.

God had miracle births in the past notably Isaac born to Abraham when he was about 100, Samuel born of promise as well. Moses born and protected and delivered to the daughter of Pharaoh to raise compassionately tho her father sought to kill the babies
Jesus would be a more ultimate miracle birth (as Muslim and Christians agree) born of a virgin


On the subject of the providences behind birth many wonders in the birth process we also can agree.