Can Islamic and Christian Theological Concepts of God be reconciled?

[abrother]

When Jesus spoke those words it was during the week leading up to His crucifixion. He had just predicted His martrydom to His disciples who were understandably bereft. He was comforting His disciples, who wre all Jews, by reminding them He was the promised Messiah. He was not speaking about other religions such as Hinduism or Buddhism as they were not well known.

But go ahead and tell my Hindu friend how wrong he is and how right you are.

Greetings Adrian, may peace be with you.



You are a kind and compassionate soul who obviously wishes to help bring peace to the world. But we must recognize that Almighty God the Father, by whatever names He is known, has made creation and life to be followed as He directs, by whomever He chooses to represent Him. What to believe, what to follow? Jesus followed the Torah. The Torah is a Book of Law, not a book of religion. It is good to think about that.

Eschatologists are in general agreement that this is the time for the Messiah to appear in the world (for the first time or returning, according to ones belief). Can he be here now correcting errors, exposing and battling evil, and guiding the people of the world in how to live to reach their heavenly life-- although not yet having made his presence public? If he is here with the knowledge we need, shouldn't we search to find him rather than debating among ourselves?

Getting back to the John 14:6 quote earlier presented, that Jesus is “...the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me...” A key point to consider is when Jesus spoke of himself as “the way” he was referring to himself as something more; something “he exists as” in creation humanity must follow to reach the Father; something we must "hold fast" to if we are to receive our heavenly life? Has that “something” ever been spoken about in the scriptures, something we must “hold fast” to that everyone in our world shares? Does that something relate to the Morning Star?

Apart from finding the Lord among us now and learning from him directly, we can pray for the deeper meaning and symbology of the scriptures-- yes there are deeper meanings and symbology in the holy scriptures for those who humbly bend a knee and pray in loving adoration. But who is willing and able to do that?

 

[abrother]

When Jesus spoke those words it was during the week leading up to His crucifixion. He had just predicted His martrydom to His disciples who were understandably bereft. He was comforting His disciples, who wre all Jews, by reminding them He was the promised Messiah. He was not speaking about other religions such as Hinduism or Buddhism as they were not well known.

But go ahead and tell my Hindu friend how wrong he is and how right you are.

Greetings Adrian, may peace be with you.



You are a kind and compassionate soul who obviously wishes to help bring peace to the world. But we must recognize that Almighty God the Father, by whatever names He is known, has made creation and life to be followed as He directs, by whomever He chooses to represent Him. What to believe, what to follow? Jesus followed the Torah. The Torah is a Book of Law, not a book of religion. It is good to think about that.

Eschatologists are in general agreement that this is the time for the Messiah to appear in the world (for the first time or returning, according to ones belief). Can he be here now correcting errors, exposing and battling evil, and guiding the people of the world in how to live to reach their heavenly life-- although not yet having made his presence public? If he is here with the knowledge we need, shouldn't we search to find him rather than debating among ourselves?

Getting back to the John 14:6 quote earlier presented, that Jesus is “...the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me...” A key point to consider is when Jesus spoke of himself as “the way” he was referring to himself as something more; something “he exists as” in creation humanity must follow to reach the Father; something we must "hold fast" to if we are to receive our heavenly life? Has that “something” ever been spoken about in the scriptures, something we must “hold fast” to that everyone in our world shares? Does that something relate to the Morning Star?

Apart from finding the Lord among us now and learning from him directly, we can pray for the deeper meaning and symbology of the scriptures-- yes there are deeper meanings and symbology in the holy scriptures for those who humbly bend a knee and pray in loving adoration. But who is willing and able to do that?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Greetings Adrian, may peace be with you.



You are a kind and compassionate soul who obviously wishes to help bring peace to the world. But we must recognize that Almighty God the Father, by whatever names He is known, has made creation and life to be followed as He directs, by whomever He chooses to represent Him. What to believe, what to follow? Jesus followed the Torah. The Torah is a Book of Law, not a book of religion. It is good to think about that.

Eschatologists are in general agreement that this is the time for the Messiah to appear in the world (for the first time or returning, according to ones belief). Can he be here now correcting errors, exposing and battling evil, and guiding the people of the world in how to live to reach their heavenly life-- although not yet having made his presence public? If he is here with the knowledge we need, shouldn't we search to find him rather than debating among ourselves?

Getting back to the John 14:6 quote earlier presented, that Jesus is “...the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me...” A key point to consider is when Jesus spoke of himself as “the way” he was referring to himself as something more; something “he exists as” in creation humanity must follow to reach the Father; something we must "hold fast" to if we are to receive our heavenly life? Has that “something” ever been spoken about in the scriptures, something we must “hold fast” to that everyone in our world shares? Does that something relate to the Morning Star?

Apart from finding the Lord among us now and learning from him directly, we can pray for the deeper meaning and symbology of the scriptures-- yes there are deeper meanings and symbology in the holy scriptures for those who humbly bend a knee and pray in loving adoration. But who is willing and able to do that?

Greetings brother and thank you for your kind words. I do agree that John 14:6 refers also to the Divine reality of Christ so thanks for bringing that to our attention.

I have been a Baha’i for nearly 30 years and so believe that Christ has come and been. In a sense Muhammad was a Mesiah that reflected Gods radiance. Much more importantly are the twin Manifestations of the Bahá’i Faith the Bab and Baha’u’llah. They fulfil all the prophecies in the Bible. I do not engage in idle debate but seek to improve my understanding to enable me to better share the healing message for today that humanity so desperately needs.

It is one thing to humbly pray but another to accept the truth when the answer does not conform to our expectations.

Are we like the humble disciples who immediately responded to His call or the supposedly learned High Priest Caiaphas who heard our Lord and unhesitatingly rejected a His claims?

Go well my friend and thank you for dropping in.

 

[wizanda]

A simple, "I do not subscribe to orthodox or unorthodox Christian religions" would suffice...

Nothing is ever simple; you'd already missed the first reply to you, and had explained the Pharisaic divide to you in your other thread.

In my opinion.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Nothing is ever simple; you'd already missed the first reply to you, and had explained the Pharisaic divide to you in your other thread.

In my opinion.

I read them. I disagree in your presentation that's all nothing to argue further.

 

[wizanda]

I read them. I disagree in your presentation that's all nothing to argue further.

You asked me what I followed again, and thus repeated my comprehension... Then you say it is an argument, as you disagree that is what I understand.

In my opinion.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

You asked me what I followed again, and thus repeated my comprehension... Then you say it is an argument, as you disagree that is what I understand.

In my opinion.

The argument was referring to the other stuff you mentioned. Your faith or whatever that is, seems non-denominational. Nothing more to discuss on this matter. Personally (in my opinion) you are mixing a lot of things up and calling it a belief.

 

[wizanda]

Your faith or whatever that is, seems non-denominational.

I don't have faith in the religious texts books; my knowledge comes from first hand experience.

Personally (in my opinion) you are mixing a lot of things up and calling it a belief.

I don't do beliefs; based on what is stated in the texts, this is a careful analysis of what is believed within them.

In my opinion.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I don't have faith in the religious texts books; my knowledge comes from first hand experience.

I don't do beliefs; based on what is stated in the texts, this is a careful analysis of what is believed within them.

In my opinion.

This is all I need

 

[wizanda]

impossible for the contradictions within Islam and Christianity to be resolved.

Since was sent to try and create peace among the religions, going to try reconciling it based on the facts in the texts, and what exists from my knowledge:

So a Muslim, Jew, Christian, and Baha'i would need to accept the Lord (YHVH/Yeshua) is the Head of the Divine Council, and a representative of the God Most High (Allah/CPU), especially when appearing in any form.

Problems arise tho:

• The Quran says Yeshua was just a man, doesn't accept that angels could appear as a Son of Man, that Allah is the one who spoke to Moses, doesn't acknowledge the Elohim in Genesis are the Divine Council, etc... Considering the Quran doesn't align with the theology that I've personally seen exists, and instead matches Judaism's ideas since the Babylonian Exile, would say it is made up to fit, like Christianity (John,Paul, Simon) is.
  
  
• Christians don't all acknowledge that Yeshua is the Right Arm of the Lord (YHVH) due to the false texts muddying the waters, and most have no realization the God Most High (El Elyon) is distinct from the Elohim (Isaiah 46:9)...Again this follows Judaism's ideas, ignores Yeshua, and the Tanakh.
  
  
• Judaism says that the Elohim are their God, when it is plural for the Divine Beings, and they do not recognize El Elyon as superior (Deuteronomy 32:7-9)... Therefore they do not understand Yeshua to be an avatar of their Lord, and there being the God Most High as the Source of Reality above him.
  
  
• Baha'i has so many points from these other religions, it isn't worth trying to include it in this reconciliation, as we'd need to fix Judaism first.

Think going to make a new thread, is Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Baha'i Anti-Christ as that is far easier to achieve... As Revelation 20:8 says satan has made these be against each other for the final battle on purpose.

In my opinion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Thanks for participating in this thread. I've had quite a number of threads now and this has been one of the most challenging.

Since was sent to try and create peace among the religions, going to try reconciling it based on the facts in the texts, and what exists from my knowledge:

Its good you want to create peace amongst religions and that you have taken the time to study religious texts. You have had a unique experience with your NDE. We all need to integrate our experience, insights in life, and knowledge.

My best guess at making sense of it all leads me to the Baha'i Faith. You dwell outside the realms of any of the known belief systems. That must be difficult at times. We all need to reframe our beliefs from time to time to integrate new experiences and information. I'm having to make some adjustments as I learn more about Islam.

So a Muslim, Jew, Christian, and Baha'i would need to accept the Lord (YHVH/Yeshua) is the Head of the Divine Council, and a representative of the God Most High (Allah/CPU), especially when appearing in any form.

All these faiths believe in the One God. A risk with delving to far into the complexities of the very unknown and abstract world of God is that we get become too consumed with abstruse concerns and not enough with the practical realities of this life.

Buddha addressed this very well:

Parable of the Poisoned Arrow - Wikipedia

Problems arise tho:

• The Quran says Yeshua was just a man, doesn't accept that angels could appear as a Son of Man, that Allah is the one who spoke to Moses, doesn't acknowledge the Elohim in Genesis are the Divine Council, etc... Considering the Quran doesn't align with the theology that I've personally seen exists, and instead matches Judaism's ideas since the Babylonian Exile, would say it is made up to fit, like Christianity (John,Paul, Simon) is.

The biggest concern I have with Islam's theology is it largely disregards or ignores what has gone before it, whether it be the NT or Tanakh. Muslims all too often see these sacred books as corrupt and place too much weight on literal understandings of the Quran. The Baha'i Faith doesn't but then you would argue it places too much weight on what has gone on before.

Christians don't all acknowledge that Yeshua is the Right Arm of the Lord (YHVH) due to the false texts muddying the waters, and most have no realization the God Most High (El Elyon) is distinct from the Elohim (Isaiah 46:9)...Again this follows Judaism's ideas, ignores Yeshua, and the Tanakh.

I don't see any need to rehash our fundamental difference of opinion about the Christian texts.

The main problem I see with Christianity is literalism, exclusivity, and some rather confused doctrine to emerge out of the 4th Century (Nicene Creed).

Judaism says that the Elohim are their God, when it is plural for the Divine Beings, and they do not recognize El Elyon as superior (Deuteronomy 32:7-9)... Therefore they do not understand Yeshua to be an avatar of their Lord, and there being the God Most High as the Source of Reality above him.

I sort of agree though you lose me somewhat with the kingdom of names!

Baha'i has so many points from these other religions, it isn't worth trying to include it in this reconciliation, as we'd need to fix Judaism first.

Good luck with trying to fix Judaism lol.

Think going to make a new thread, is Christianity, Islam, Judaism, and Baha'i Anti-Christ as that is far easier to achieve... As Revelation 20:8 says satan has made these be against each other for the final battle on purpose.

In my opinion.

I'm not too sure that you mean, but all the best.

 

[wizanda]

Thanks for participating in this thread.

Thank you for asking stimulating questions, that make us think.

You have had a unique experience with your NDE.

You read my journal post; the NDE only counts for a little bit, where it just proved was sent from Heaven...

It is God speaking to me at 15 with the whole host of Heaven, gives us additional incentive to get on with this, and being the Angel of Revelation 10, which did two years before reading the Bible.

You dwell outside the realms of any of the known belief systems. That must be difficult at times.

At first it did; yet realized what the religious texts say is here is near Hell, and what the religious say is they're all saints, with lots of complaints.

A risk with delving to far into the complexities of the very unknown and abstract world of God is that we get become too consumed with abstruse concerns and not enough with the practical realities of this life.

Depends on what is real; for me when we ask for things, God puts them in our path, to the point we know here can not be real, it is an artificial reality to test people.

Thus practicalities of making our self comfortable near Hell, is where Yeshua warned us, "do not worry about things of this earth, as God knows what we need before we need it" (Matthew 6:25-34).

Buddha addressed this very well:

Parable of the Poisoned Arrow - Wikipedia

I've got an anti-pedantic nature... Where find it alien to our soul, so just miss a lot of the overly zealous unnecessary specifications, to see if it concurs with what we've seen; plus makes logical sense.

The biggest concern I have with Islam's theology is it largely disregards or ignores what has gone before it

Which as previously posting means it doesn't follow the Quran.

I don't see any need to rehash our fundamental difference of opinion about the Christian texts.

This is why going to write another thread explaining the calamity of errors, it started in the Hebrew bad comprehension.

I sort of agree though you lose me somewhat with the kingdom of names!

This is a part of understanding what is really going on, and how it becomes clear on inspecting the original languages, and meanings...

Will try to make it clearer for everyone; so please do ask if it confuses, and will give you sources to justify it all.

In my opinion.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks for participating in this thread. I've had quite a number of threads now and this has been one of the most challenging.

Its good you want to create peace amongst religions and that you have taken the time to study religious texts. You have had a unique experience with your NDE. We all need to integrate our experience, insights in life, and knowledge.

My best guess at making sense of it all leads me to the Baha'i Faith. You dwell outside the realms of any of the known belief systems. That must be difficult at times. We all need to reframe our beliefs from time to time to integrate new experiences and information. I'm having to make some adjustments as I learn more about Islam.

All these faiths believe in the One God. A risk with delving to far into the complexities of the very unknown and abstract world of God is that we get become too consumed with abstruse concerns and not enough with the practical realities of this life.

Buddha addressed this very well:

Parable of the Poisoned Arrow - Wikipedia



The biggest concern I have with Islam's theology is it largely disregards or ignores what has gone before it, whether it be the NT or Tanakh. Muslims all too often see these sacred books as corrupt and place too much weight on literal understandings of the Quran. The Baha'i Faith doesn't but then you would argue it places too much weight on what has gone on before.



I don't see any need to rehash our fundamental difference of opinion about the Christian texts.

The main problem I see with Christianity is literalism, exclusivity, and some rather confused doctrine to emerge out of the 4th Century (Nicene Creed).



I sort of agree though you lose me somewhat with the kingdom of names!



Good luck with trying to fix Judaism lol.



I'm not too sure that you mean, but all the best.

If the Baha'is believe that the theological interpretations made by the Christians and Muslims are wrong, then what good is it to try and reconcile them? The Baha'is give what they believe is the correct interpretation of who God is and why he sent different messengers bringing different religions. Baha'is say the differences are man-made mistakes in a too literal interpretation or out right inventing theological doctrines.

With the Baha'i view, both Christians and Muslims, and all other religions are supposed to let go of their previously held beliefs and accept the Baha'i interpretation. Thus, the differences will be done away with. Which isn't really reconciling them is it? Baha'is expect them to realize the error of their traditions and interpretations. So no, Islam and Christianity, as believed by most adherents of those religions, can't be reconciled.

Maybe liberal versions and sects of those religions. But still, they do away with the doctrines that divide them. But now, the Baha'i problem is... can traditional, conservative, or fundamental views of Islam and Christianity be reconciled with the Baha'i Faith? I'd say no to that too. Only by letting go of those beliefs, which Baha'is say are wrong, can all of them come together. But then, it will not be a traditional Islam and Christianity that people will believe in. It will be the Baha'i interpretation of those religions that people will believe in.

Which is what? Jesus is not God. There is no Satan or hell. Jesus didn't rise physically from the dead and so on. That is not much of a Christianity. And it is probably similar for Islam. Only a gutted and stripped down version is all that will be left. Which is okay for Baha'is, because they want people to leave those beliefs behind. They want the world to join hands and leave their religious differences behind. So isn't what Baha'is really want is for people to admit that their old religions are part of what is dividing us? That those religious views are outdated and wrong?

 

[Godobeyer]

@David1967 Thanks friend for tag me

View of God is very defer between Christainity and Islam.

We going to Mosque to pray God/Allah.

In general Christains going to Church to pray God and "His son" Jesus(pbuh) and may extend to Marry(pbuh) and Holy Spirit.

For my experience that I got in this forum , Judiasm and islam are very matching in this theological, and very far from Christainity theologic, except Christains whom believe that Jesus(pbuh) is not God.
So God is one,had no son. not parts.

 

[Dawnofhope]

@David1967 Thanks friend for tag me

View of God is very defer between Christainity and Islam.

We going to Mosque to pray God/Allah.

In general Christains going to Church to pray God and "His son" Jesus(pbuh) and may extend to Marry(pbuh) and Holy Spirit.

For my experience that I got in this forum , Judiasm and islam are very matching in this theological, and very far from Christainity theologic, except Christains whom believe that Jesus(pbuh) is not God.
So God is one,had no son. not parts.

Hi @Godobeyer ,
Thank you for contributing. It would be useful to have more Muslims on RF. Maybe its not the easiest environment here for you guys? I agree with all you say.

You may be interested in my other thread related to this topic.

https://www.religiousforums.com/thr...hristianity-regarding-concepts-of-god.210197/
Cheers
Adrian

 

[Dawnofhope]

If the Baha'is believe that the theological interpretations made by the Christians and Muslims are wrong, then what good is it to try and reconcile them? The Baha'is give what they believe is the correct interpretation of who God is and why he sent different messengers bringing different religions. Baha'is say the differences are man-made mistakes in a too literal interpretation or out right inventing theological doctrines.

With the Baha'i view, both Christians and Muslims, and all other religions are supposed to let go of their previously held beliefs and accept the Baha'i interpretation. Thus, the differences will be done away with. Which isn't really reconciling them is it? Baha'is expect them to realize the error of their traditions and interpretations. So no, Islam and Christianity, as believed by most adherents of those religions, can't be reconciled.

Maybe liberal versions and sects of those religions. But still, they do away with the doctrines that divide them. But now, the Baha'i problem is... can traditional, conservative, or fundamental views of Islam and Christianity be reconciled with the Baha'i Faith? I'd say no to that too. Only by letting go of those beliefs, which Baha'is say are wrong, can all of them come together. But then, it will not be a traditional Islam and Christianity that people will believe in. It will be the Baha'i interpretation of those religions that people will believe in.

Which is what? Jesus is not God. There is no Satan or hell. Jesus didn't rise physically from the dead and so on. That is not much of a Christianity. And it is probably similar for Islam. Only a gutted and stripped down version is all that will be left. Which is okay for Baha'is, because they want people to leave those beliefs behind. They want the world to join hands and leave their religious differences behind. So isn't what Baha'is really want is for people to admit that their old religions are part of what is dividing us? That those religious views are outdated and wrong?

Hi C G,

To be clear the Baha'is (or at least this Baha'i) are not trying to reconcile Islam and Christianity. What do you think we would do? Be mediators and arrange for the Pope and all the leaders of various Christian sects to meet with all the Islamic leaders. Would we convince them that that they worship the same God and both had manifestations of God as prophets? Explain the reason they have been at each other's throats for the last 1,300 + years is their misunderstanding about their own sacred writings. Once we facilitate their accept of this truth, we step in and say, hey guys, guess what! The next manifestation of God is here lol. That would be unrealistic and naïve.

What I'm asking the audience on RF to consider as whether or not they as individuals can see consistency and common themes with the two Abrahamic revelations. No more, no less. I'm reasonably heartened by the response.

Both faiths are too far gone to meet the needs of humanity unfortunately. Besides there's just too much bad blood.

The major error for the Muslims is they claim Muslims must believe in ALL the prophets that have gone before including Moses and Jesus but then they see the gospels and Tanakh as fundamentally corrupted and no longer reflecting what was taught by Moses and Jesus.

The problem for the Christians is they have failed to understand their own sacred texts and created doctrines that reinforce literal understandings of verses that were meant to be taken allegorically or symbolically. Besides they have rejected Muhammad.

Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this day. Our numbers are relatively small compared to Islam and Christianity but our Teachings are much more in sync with the spirit of this age than Islam and Christianity.

 

[ecco]

Hi C G,

To be clear the Baha'is (or at least this Baha'i) are not trying to reconcile Islam and Christianity.

Both faiths are too far gone to meet the needs of humanity unfortunately. Besides there's just too much bad blood.

The major error for the Muslims is they claim Muslims must believe in ALL the prophets that have gone before including Moses and Jesus ....

The problem for the Christians is they have failed to understand their own sacred texts ...

Are you saying the belief system of atheists is better than the belief system of Christians and Muslims? We don't claim anyone has to believe ANY prophets. We have no sacred texts to misunderstand.

Baha'is believe Baha'u'llah is the Manifestation of God for this day. ... our Teachings clearly meet the needs for today much more readily than religions that are hundreds, even thousands of years old.

Atheist teachings clearly meet the needs for today much more readily than religions that are hundreds, even thousands of years old. Even religions that cropped up in the middle of the 19th Century.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Are you saying the belief system of atheists is better than the belief system of Christians and Muslims? We don't claim anyone has to believe ANY prophets. We have no sacred texts to misunderstand.

Atheist teachings clearly meet the needs for today much more readily than religions that are hundreds, even thousands of years old. Even religions that cropped up in the middle of the 19th Century.

If having no religion for you works, I'm not going to change your mind. You go your way and I'll go mine.

As for what my 19th century religion has to say about the matter:

Religion should unite all hearts and cause wars and disputes to vanish from the face of the earth, give birth to spirituality, and bring life and light to each heart. If religion becomes a cause of dislike, hatred and division, it were better to be without it, and to withdraw from such a religion would be a truly religious act. For it is clear that the purpose of a remedy is to cure; but if the remedy should only aggravate the complaint it had better be left alone. Any religion which is not a cause of love and unity is no religion. All the holy prophets were as doctors to the soul; they gave prescriptions for the healing of mankind; thus any remedy that causes disease does not come from the great and supreme Physician.

http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/PT/pt-41.html

 

[abrother]

It is one thing to humbly pray but another to accept the truth when the answer does not conform to our expectations.

Are we like the humble disciples who immediately responded to His call or the supposedly learned High Priest Caiaphas who heard our Lord and unhesitatingly rejected a His claims?

Go well my friend and thank you for dropping in.

It's people's preconceptions of what the Messiah will be like, their expectations of what the Messiah will do and say that make it hard for them to accept and follow what he shows them. Sincere prayer helps break through that mental wall allowing people to become like children ready to learn anew. Self-righteous, self-important, and arrogant people find it especially hard to accept the Messiah when he corrects errors in beliefs they cannot release.That is tragic because he is here to protect and guide us through a world filled with lies and deceit at a very special time upon the Earth. Look for him, not only within, but among us in the flesh where we can learn from him directly. We need his guidance now more than people know.

 

[Dawnofhope]

It's people's preconceptions of what the Messiah will be like, their expectations of what the Messiah will do and say that make it hard for them to accept and follow what he shows them. Sincere prayer helps break through that mental wall allowing people to become like children ready to learn anew. Self-righteous, self-important, and arrogant people find it especially hard to accept the Messiah when he corrects errors in beliefs they cannot release.That is tragic because he is here to protect and guide us through a world filled with lies and deceit at a very special time upon the Earth. Look for him, not only within, but among us in the flesh where we can learn from him directly. We need his guidance now more than people know.

I believe Baha’u’llah To be the return of Christ. How about you? Who do you think He is or do you think He is yet to come?