Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[Pegg]

I really will never understand this. We are human. Its in our nature to eventually die. Thats it.

If its in our nature, why is death so hard for us to accept?

 

[Harmonious]

That just made something snap in my brain. Now thinking about it, the actual message was probably that Jesus was saying that he, being a Jew, was going to fulfill the laws as well. It makes sense in context as he expands on following the laws.

Later on, Christians, completely ignorant of Jewish custom, and not willing to actually follow the law, decided that Jesus must have been saying something else.

Very cool. I'm glad to be of service.

 

[Harmonious]

I realize that this is of little benefit to you, but I didn't say that Paul was ignorant of Jewish custom.

You didn't. I did.

 

[Harmonious]

If its in our nature, why is death so hard for us to accept?

Because we enjoy living. Because we miss the people who are no longer with us.

Because we have opportunities here that we don't have once we are no longer living.

There are lots of good reasons for it to be hard for us to accept.

 

[Pegg]

Because we enjoy living. Because we miss the people who are no longer with us.

Because we have opportunities here that we don't have once we are no longer living.

There are lots of good reasons for it to be hard for us to accept.

if living is good, then why would God have created us to die?

 

[Harmonious]

if living is good, then why would God have created us to die?

We have infinite opportunities to earn all kinds of merit here in this world. In the next world, we will be static, no longer able to better our personal situation.

So, the main purpose of our existence is to make THIS world a better place. And once we've done the best we can here, we will reap what we've sown.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You didn't. I did.

Big difference.

 

[BigRed]

Absolutely correct. . .rather, there is everything there to reveal that God's promise to Abraham has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and not abrogated.

See related post @ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2317283-post509.html and Outline of Letter to Hebrews @ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2318469-post513.html

If Abraham were here with us, I'm sure that he would ask....."So what did I get?"
"Where's the land I was promised?"

So what do you think Abraham got according to your "fulfilment of a promise"?
Abraham just got another promise. A promise he would go to Heaven????
Is that the way you think debts should be paid off?
Why didn't Abe get what he was promised instead of a substitute promise?
BigRed

 

[Pegg]

So, the main purpose of our existence is to make THIS world a better place.

lol.. in the imortal words of Dr Phil,

"and how's that working out for ya?"

if mankind were permitted an indefinite amount of time on this planet, there'll be no planet left with which to work on

and what about all those many babies born who die before they even have a chance to live in this world...or the millions of young children who die because they are malnurished??

no, sorry, your theory makes no sense at all

 

[BigRed]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -OUTLINE OF LETTER TO HEBREWS- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Jesus was not an angel, he was greater than an angel. - chp 1
Jesus was a man like us. - chp 2
Jesus was a man greater even than Moses. - 3:1-6

God's own people in the past failed to believe. - 3:7-19
Do not fail to believe again. - 4:1-13

Believe in your new High Priest. - 4:14-5:10***
Consequences of lapsing back into Judaism (falling away into unbelief) - 5:11-6:12

You should believe and hope because of the
---certainty of God's promise - 6:13-7:10,
---the new eternal High Priesthood - 7:11-21,
---who is the guarantee of a better covenant - 7:22-25, 8:7-13,
---through a superior Mediator - 7:26-8:6, 9:15,
---faith in Christ is same faith as faith in OT sacrifices - 9:1-28,
---which are fulfilled in Christ's once-for-all perfect atoning sacrifice of himself - 10:1-18

Therefore, believe and obey your new High Priest, do not lapse back (fall away into unbelief) - 10:19-39
Believe as the ancients believed God's land promise of an everlasting posssession, fulfilled in Jesus Christ - 11:1-38

Jesus is the example of perserverance in belief (faith, not falling away) - 12:1-13
Therefore, do not lapse back into Judaism (fall away into unbelief) - 12:14-28

Rules for Christian living, and closing - chp 13

***5:8-9 -- "he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect (complete, a propitiation),
he became the source of eternal salvation (atoning sacrifice) for all who obey him" -- meaning:

Jesus learned experientially in his ignominious suffering the price which obedience required.
His trial of obedience was completed (made perfect) by not losing his faith in his suffering on the tree.
Completing his obedience then secured his perfection (righteousness). . .(whereas Adam lost his perfection by disobedience).
His secured perfection (righteousness) made him a perfect sacrifice of atonement, and the source of salvation for all who obey him, which includes his command
to believe (Mk 1:15; Jn 1:12, 7:38-39).

See fulfillment of the promise to the patriarchs of an everlasting possession @ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2317448-post511.html

You place too much faith in the Book of Hebrews.
There are serious errors in Hebrews that make it unreliable. Very unreliable.

Hebrews9:3-4

3Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;

WRONG! The golden altar of incense was NOT inside the Holy of Holies. It was outside the curtain in the Holy Place.
Look it up in your Bible.

Hebrews 9:4 says Aaron's rod was INSIDE the Ark. But Numbers 17:10 says the rod was placed IN FRONT of the Ark.

Hebrews 9:4 says the jar of Manna was inside the ark.
It was placed BEFORE the ark.
Exodus 16:32-34
Then Moses said, "This is what the LORD has commanded, 'Let an omerful of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread that I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you out of the land of Egypt.'"
33Moses said to Aaron, "Take a jar and put an omerful of manna in it, and place it before the LORD to be kept throughout your generations."
34As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron placed it before the Testimony, to be kept.

It is evident that the omer of manna and Aaron's Rod were not in the ark during King Solomon's days.
1Kings 8:9
There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Serious Errors. The author of Hebrews was a fraud who did not know the Hebrew Scripture well.

BigRed

 

[BigRed]

Jeremy, this will give you some background on this thread:

The NT letter to the Hebrews taken in the context of the whole letter reports that is exactly what Jesus did.

The letter reports that the law was merely a shadow (representation) of the things that were to come in the NT, that they were not the realites (e.g., effectual atonement
for sin) themselves, that the reality is found in Christ -- Heb 10:1; Col 2:16-17.

Note: I don't defend the NT, I simply present what it reports. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. . .I do.
Nor do I wrestle with the plain words of the NT text, nor do I quibble about their necesessary implications, because they are plain for all to see for themselves.
I take the words at their plain meaning.

So with that in mind, these are some of the fulfillments presented in the letter to the Hebrews.

1) Jesus fulfilled the prefigure in the High Priest -- Heb 7:11-18, 22

2) He fulfilled the prefigure in the sacrifices - -Heb 7:27, 9:6-10, 15b, 28, 10:1-10

3) He fulfilled the prefigure in the cleansing blood of the sacrifices -- Heb 10:14; 1 Jn 1:7

4) He fulfilled the prefigure in the Mediator of the Siniatic covenant (Moses, Ex 20:18-22), 34:10, 27) -- Heb 9:15, 8:6, 7:22

5) He fulfilled the prefigure in putting the Sinaitic covenant into effect through blood
by his putting the New Covenant into effect through his blood (Mt:26:28) -- Heb 9:18-26

6) He fulfilled the prefigure in the Passover lamb by being sacrificed on/during the "Passover" (which in NT means Nissan 15/Nissan 15-21) -- 1 Co 5:7

7) The letter to the Hebrews also reports that the Siniatic covenant and old order have been replaced with
the New Covenant and new order -- Heb 7:18-19, 22, 8:7, 13, 9:9-10, 15, 10:9 -- more here ---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2313639-post405.html

So it is on the authority of the NT that Christians believe Jesus fulfilled the Jewish Levitical law.

Problems with Jesus' Sacrifice for Sins.

Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. but He, [Jesus] having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD. [Hebrews chapter 10]

The author of Hebrews compares Jesus' execution on the cross with the animal sacrifices performed by the Levitical priests in the Temple court.

So let's take a closer look at this comparison.
The animal had to be perfect. Jesus' skin had been marred by whipping.
The genitals of the animal had to be intact and perfect. Jesus was circumcised.
The animal had its throat cut. Jesus did not.
The animal was skinned and the skin was given to the High Priest. Jesus was not skinned.
The animal had its alimentary canal removed and the canal was burned outside the city. Jesus did not.
The animal was cut in quarters. Jesus was not.
The animal was burned on the Altar in the Temple court. Jesus was not.
The animal was sacrificed in the temple court. Jesus was executed outside the city.
The animal was sacrificed with Levitical priests officiating. Jesus was executed with Roman soldiers officiating.

The only thing Jesus had in common with the animal is that they both died.
​

BigRed


​

 

[Pegg]

You place too much faith in the Book of Hebrews.
There are serious errors in Hebrews that make it unreliable. Very unreliable.

Hebrews9:3-4
3Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;

WRONG! The golden altar of incense was NOT inside the Holy of Holies. It was outside the curtain in the Holy Place.
Look it up in your Bible.

According to Leviticus 16:12 the golden alter of incense was behind the curtain.
12 “And he must take the fire holder full of burning coals of fire from off the altar ...and he must bring them inside the curtain.

Hebrews 9:4 says Aaron's rod was INSIDE the Ark. But Numbers 17:10 says the rod was placed IN FRONT of the Ark. Hebrews 9:4 says the jar of Manna was inside the ark.
It was placed BEFORE the ark.

It doesnt appear to say that the rod or manna was 'inside' the ark...it includes the rod and manna among the items 'behind the second curtain' along with all the other items in there.
Hebrews 9:3-4 But behind the second curtain was the tent [compartment] called “the Most Holy.” 4 This had a golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid all around with gold, in which were the golden jar having the manna and the rod of Aaron that budded and the tablets of the covenant

Exodus 16:32-34
Then Moses said, "This is what the LORD has commanded, 'Let an omerful of it be kept throughout your generations, that they may see the bread that I fed you in the wilderness, when I brought you out of the land of Egypt.'"
33Moses said to Aaron, "Take a jar and put an omerful of manna in it, and place it before the LORD to be kept throughout your generations."
34As the LORD commanded Moses, so Aaron placed it before the Testimony, to be kept.

It is evident that the omer of manna and Aaron's Rod were not in the ark during King Solomon's days.
1Kings 8:9
There was nothing in the ark except the two tablets of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, where the LORD made a covenant with the sons of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt.

Serious Errors.

there is no contradiction between Pauls words and those found at 1Kings 8:9, the fact that 1Kings states that “there was nothing in the Ark but the two tablets that Moses had given at Horeb” implies that at some time prior, the Ark did contain other things otherwise why would the writer need to mention it?

The author of Hebrews was a fraud who did not know the Hebrew Scripture well.

BigRed

Pauls letter in Hebrews is referring to the time when the tabernacle was first installed. The following scriptures show that at that time, these items were in the ark.
‘Take a jar and put in it an omerful of manna and deposit it before Jehovah as something to be kept throughout your generations.’ Just as Jehovah had commanded Moses, Aaron proceeded to deposit it before the Testimony as something to be kept.”
Exodus 16:33-34

“I turned and went down from the mountain and placed the tablets in the ark that I had made, that they might continue there, just as Jehovah had commanded me.” Deut. 10:5

“Subsequently Jehovah said to Moses: ‘Put Aaron’s rod back before the Testimony as something to be kept for a sign to the sons of rebelliousness, that their murmurings may cease from against me, that they may not die.’” Num. 17:10

Obviously Paul was writing about this particular time rather then later when the items had been removed. You have to remember that the ark had been captured by enemy soldiers a number of times. its not likely that those enemies kept these things safe and secure and in their proper place.

 

[Harmonious]

lol.. in the imortal words of Dr Phil,

"and how's that working out for ya?"

That's up to each individual. The world is an infinitely better place for some of the lives that have been lived here and touched others during their stay here.

If you mean to say you can't think of anyone who was worth knowing, who made their little corner of the world a better place for having them in it, I truly pity you, and would bless you with the chance to get out and know more people.

if mankind were permitted an indefinite amount of time on this planet, there'll be no planet left with which to work on

Eh. God has also been known to create n-space at will, when people are doing His will.

Space is not a problem. Even if people WERE permitted an indefinite amount of time here.

But what exactly are you trying to say? Life here is good? Life here is worthless, so we are only eking out what few years we have before we say goodbye to a worthless existence?

We have the ability to be kind, to learn, grow, be more, do more, become better people, make the people around us happier (if we can), and serve our fellow humans with love, and serve God with the rest of our resources. That is how we work in this world.

If we work to make this world a better place, God will worry about the next world. It's there. It's waiting. But until we get there, this is a pretty good place to hang out for 120 years or so (each, if we get that long).

and what about all those many babies born who die before they even have a chance to live in this world...

God has a purpose for them, too. Perhaps God had in mind to reward their souls with one last moment in this world before they find their eternal happy place.

or the millions of young children who die because they are malnurished??

I don't know what to tell you. God works in mysterious ways, and I won't pretend I know why He does things.

But I do know that I have many things to accomplish in this world while I'm here, and I'll do my best to get as much of it accomplished as I have.

There is NO WAY you are going to get me to say that "this world sucks, so we're just here to pass time until we get to where we're going."

Nothing that God created is without purpose, even if I don't understand it. I'm not going to second-guess God.

If you want to, that is your lookout. But I'll do my best to love God and the people whose lives I come into contact with to the best of my ability.

We can make this world a better place one person at a time. At the very least, we can try.

no, sorry, your theory makes no sense at all

No, as far as I can tell, I make perfect sense. You're "nay-saying" makes no sense at all.

 

[Harmonious]

According to Leviticus 16:12 the golden alter of incense was behind the curtain.
12 “And he must take the fire holder full of burning coals of fire from off the altar ...and he must bring them inside the curtain.

No, no, no.

The golden altar was not behind the curtain. It was in the Holies, outside of the curtain.

That section you've listed refers to the Cohen Gadol (High Priest) on Yom Kippur, who brought a shovel full of coal and a ladle full of spices inside the curtain.

It doesnt appear to say that the rod or manna was 'inside' the ark...it includes the rod and manna among the items 'behind the second curtain' along with all the other items in there.
Hebrews 9:3-4 But behind the second curtain was the tent [compartment] called “the Most Holy.” 4 This had a golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid all around with gold, in which were the golden jar having the manna and the rod of Aaron that budded and the tablets of the covenant

Hebrews is SO full of mistakes that I didn't bother to list them all.

This "golden censer" is at least one or two of them.

there is no contradiction between Pauls words and those found at 1Kings 8:9, the fact that 1Kings states that “there was nothing in the Ark but the two tablets that Moses had given at Horeb” implies that at some time prior, the Ark did contain other things otherwise why would the writer need to mention it?

There WERE a few things put in there. A jar of manna, the broken tablets, and Aaron's staff. (Hey - even a stopped clock is right twice a day.)

 

[smokydot]

You didn't. I did.

So Paul was ignorant of Jewish custom?

It's your word against Paul's in the NT, which is what is to be believed in orthodox Christianity. . .that this Paul, who was a Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharisee and blameless in legalistic righteousness (Php 3:5-6) was ignorant of the Jewish custom of his day. . .you'll understand, in addition to the assertion being riciculous on the face of it, if I believe the NT because I am a Christian.

 

[smokydot]

Big difference.

You allowed for Paul being ignorant of Jewish custom, following, which is just as ridiculous as asserting that he was.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2320452-post535.html

 

[Harmonious]

So Paul was ignorant of Jewish custom?

Yup.

It's your word against Paul's in the NT, which is what is to be believed in orthodox Christianity. . .that this Paul, who was a Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharisee and blameless in legalistic righteousness (Php 3:5-6) was ignorant of the Jewish custom of his day. . .you'll understand, in addition to the assertion being riciculous on the face of it, if I believe the NT because I am a Christian.

Based on the way he described his understanding of Jewish custom, it is obvious to any small child who is learned in the basics of Jewish custom that Paul was a complete ignoramus when it comes to Jewish law and custom.

If you wish to believe the Christian scriptures, that is up to you.

Just be aware that your belief, especially as espoused by Paul, and reality (particularly when it comes to what is ACTUAL Jewish law and custom) do not match.

 

[smokydot]

If Abraham were here with us, I'm sure that he would ask....."So what did I get?"
"Where's the land I was promised?"
So what do you think Abraham got according to your "fulfilment of a promise"?
Abraham just got another promise. A promise he would go to Heaven????
Is that the way you think debts should be paid off?
Why didn't Abe get what he was promised instead of a substitute promise?
BigRed

Oh, contrare. . .believing Abraham would say, "What I got was infinitely more valuable ---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2317448-post511.html. . .and I'm not trading it for a piece of dirt!"

Take up your question with God. . .NT revelation is the authority for what is to be believed in orthodox Christianity. . .and that is the revelation
of the letter to the Hebrews.

But from where I sit, eternal life in Jesus Christ aint' shabby. . .and will outlast a piece of dirt.

 

[waitasec]

Take it up with God. . .NT revelation is the authority for what is to be believed in orthodox Christianity. . .and that is the revelation of the letter to the Hebrews.

But from where I sit, eternal life in Jesus Christ aint' shabby. . .and will outlast a piece of land.

so what was all the hub hub about a piece of land?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You allowed for Paul being ignorant of Jewish custom, following, which is just as ridiculous as asserting that he was.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2320452-post535.html

You've got an over-active imagination.

Making up stuff that I didn't say is an exceptionally poor use of that gift.

If you start reading carefully, you just might be able to criticize what it is that I'm actually saying.