And there you have it. . .Q.E.D., re: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2315945-post492.html
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Can Jewish law be fulfilled?
- Thread starter fallingblood
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
So God has become a real estate agent, has He? No... for if we consider God as such we make him a small God.
. Galatians 3:16 makes it clearer still, for we read: Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, and to seeds, as referring to many, but rather to one. And to your seed that is Christ.
Ask yourself also why, after four thousand years, the Jews are still fighting for a piece of real estate to call their own? Despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the fundamentalist Jews and Christians alike passionately believe that God gave that land to the Jews: they of all people need to consider that more than four thousand years have passed since the promise was made. In view of that length of time, they should wisely come to one of these three simple conclusions: first, that God never made such a promise; second, that God is so weak that he cannot keep His promise: third, that God never meant the promise to be a piece of real estate. In the following lines there are some compelling reasons to convince those who are spiritually wise to consider that the third option is the correct one.
Firstly, because if God so wished, He could have given that land to the Jews by simply prospering His people on that land, without resorting to a conquering armed campaign of death and destruction. Secondly, God-fearing people know that death and destruction are the Devils tools of trade. Therefore it is obvious that God never meant the Promised Land to be a piece of real estate which generations of Jews and non-Jews are still fighting over. Besides, all Holy Spirit filled people have been made aware in the spirit that the real Promised Land is located in the heart of each individual and has to be conquered by our personal spiritual battles of repentance. Yes, it is true that the spiritual conquest of our hearts should reflect the brutality of the flesh, for our spiritual struggle of repentance requires that no quarter be given, for all evil occupying the believers heart has to die. For it is written in 1Peter 1:16: you shall be Holy, for I am Holy.
Another clear illustration of Gods spiritual meaning of the Promised Land is found in Gods dealing with Israel, for we know from the Old Testament that every time Israel sinned God caused them to be removed from the Promised Land, and when they repented God brought them back into the Promised Land. So we need to understand from these two clearly illustrated consequences, deriving from their good and bad behaviour, what God is telling us. That is, that sincauses us to move out from the grace of God,and repentancebrings us back into the grace of God. In other words we can sincerely and confidently say: remain in the grace of God and we are dwelling in the Promised Land. Yes even if we live on the inhabitable Continent of Antarctica.
Great History Lesson but I think you missed the point.
The OP was about fulfilling the OT. [Matthew 5:18]
Abraham was promised the land of Caanan. [Genesis 17:8]
Abraham never even received one foot of land. [Acts 7:5]
Since God's promise to Abraham was never fulfilled, the Law and the Prophets were never fulfilled.
BigRed
free spirit
Well-Known Member
I did not miss the point, if you read my post you will find that the land has nothing to do with God,s promise. The land in this case is the space in your heart. Jesus fulfilled all of the law and the prophesyes.
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I get it.
Typical Apologist tactic.....If confronted by a problem verse just reinterpret it with a metaphoric meaning.
BigRed
Poisonshady313
Well-Known Member
Acts is wrong. Abraham purchased the cave in Hebron. Surely that covers more than a foot of ground.
free spirit
Well-Known Member
No some scriptures are metaphorically written, we need to learn the way to read them.
Yet another convincing spiritual explanation of entering into the Promised Land, or into His rest, or into the grace of God, is found in Hebrews chapter four because this chapter is connecting the entering into the Promised Land by Joshua with the entering into Gods day of rest. The connection is irrefutable for we read in Hebrews 4:1 and 6-11 and 16: Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. And in verse 6 we read: Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience. He again fixed a certain day, Today, saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, Today if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts. For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall through following the same example of disobedience. In verse 16 again we read: Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the Throne of Grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. As you can see, all these things such as the promised land, the entering of Joshua, the day of rest, and the grace of God are all metaphorically connected with the entering and dwelling in the Promised Land. In other words we ought to conquer our evil earthly hearts with the arduous personal battles of repentance, in order to make Gods grace dwell in each one of us. Yes it is true that with Gods grace dwelling in our hearts we have conquered and are dwelling in the promised land.
The promise to Abraham was fulfilled when the seed of Abraham in this case Jesus received what was promised for we read in Acts 2:33, " Therefore having been exalted to the righ hand of God. and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit,He has poured forth this which you both see and hear."
The problem with using metaphors to explain Scripture is that you never know what's "real" and what's a metaphor.
Abraham was promised land and you gave him a metaphor instead.
Billions of Christians believe they have a deed to a little piece of Heaven. Perhaps their faith is all based on a metaphor.
In any event, I doubt that Christians can count on receiving anything they think God has promised them until Abraham receives what God promised him.
BigRed
Well, actually the letter to the Hebrews reveals that God did keep his promise to Abraham.
The letter to the Hebrews reveals that the promise to Abraham was a promise of eternal life (Heb 11:10), not a promise of eternal land (Heb 11:9).
The letter reveals (Heb 11:8-16, 39-40) that the promise of "Canaan forever" was really two promises--an earthly promise and a spiritual promise.
The promise of "Canaan" was the earthly promise, of the possession of the land by Israel (Gen 15:18-21; Ex 23:31; Dt 1:7, 11:24: Josh 1:4),
whose flow of milk, honey and material blessings were a prefigure, type or sign pointing to the spiritual blessings of eternal life on earth,
and whose ridding the land of idolatry was a prefigure, type or sign pointing to having to deal radically with the sin in our lives (Mt 5:29-30;
Dt 7:1-2, 17-22; Josh 1:3, 8-9, 13, 5:2-3, 24:13; 2 Sa 7:10-11), and which promise of possession was fulfilled under Solomon (1 Kgs 4:21, 24-25; cf 2 Sa 8:3).
The promise of "forever" was the spiritual promise, of eternal life in heaven forever (Heb 11:10, 16), which promise was fulfilled at their deaths.
So the promise of "Canaan forever" was not a promise of earthly Canaan forever. . .for that would mean
God did not keep his promises made personally to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Gen 17:8, 26:3, 35:12).
[Note: For other such "unkept" promises, see 1Ch 28:4, 7; 2Ch 7:16; Ps 68:16, 132:14; Jer 31:40, 33:17-18; Joel 2:19, 27; Zeph 3:15; Zech 9:8]
But God always keeps his promises (Ps 145:13); and the letter to the Hebrews reveals that the promise of "Canaan forever" to the seed of Abraham was not an earthly promise of Cannan forever, but was really two promises regarding eternal life:
the first, a promise of the possession of Canaan by Israel (a prefigure, type or sign pointing to possession of eternal life on earth), which promise has been fulfilled; and the second, a promise of the possession of eternal life in heaven forever, which promise to the patriarchs personally is being fulfilled.
The letter to the Hebrews goes on to explain that what the patriarchs said in Gen 23:4, 28:4, 47:9, 17:8; (cf Lev 25:23, Dt 26:5) showed that their hope
in God's promise of an "everlasting possession" (Gen 17:8, 48:4) was not a hope in earthly land they could see (Heb 11:9-10),
but was a hope in heavenly land they could not see (Heb 11:1-2, 10, 16).
For the patriarchs said that they lived in the promised land as strangers in a foreign country, in tents, and not possessing on earth
the promised "everlasting possession" (Heb 11:9), which was
a prefigure, type or sign pointing to all believers living in this world as strangers in a foreign country (Jn 15:19, 17:14), not yet possessing on earth
the promised everlasting possession of the eternal city (Heb 11:16).
But although the patriarchs never possessed the earthly land, which was also a prefigure, type or sign pointing to eternal life, they did possess, through faith in God's promise
of a Messiah, the realities to which the prefigure, type or sign pointed to (Col 2:17); i.e., eternal life in Christ (Heb 11:40).
So that, in fact, God did keep his promise to the patriarchs personally of an "everlasting possession" (Jn 11:25-26) and, therefore, God did not shame his name
by breaking his promise to the patriarchs of an "everlasting possession" (Heb 11:16).
The only land promises remaining are those to Christ's church of inheriting, heirs of the earth (Mt 5:5; Rom 4:13; 2Pe 3:13; Rev 21:1, 4-7).
See related post @ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2317448-post511.html
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Let's look at that Scripture in Hebrews that you seem to be fond of.
Let's let readers see what it says for themselves.
Hebrews 11:8-16 (New American Standard Bible)
8By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.
13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
There is nothing here to abrogate God's promise to give Abraham the land of Caanan.
BigRed
Absolutely correct. . .rather, there is everything there to reveal that God's promise to Abraham has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and not abrogated.
See related post @ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2317283-post509.html and Outline of Letter to Hebrews @ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2318469-post513.html
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Funny that you should mention it!
To "plagiarize" the Scripture at Jdg 15:16:
"With an ***'s jawbone, ---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2315945-post492.html
a (dumb) *** has been made of him."
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -OUTLINE OF LETTER TO HEBREWS- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jesus was not an angel, he was greater than an angel. - chp 1
Jesus was a man like us. - chp 2
Jesus was a man greater even than Moses. - 3:1-6
God's own people in the past failed to believe. - 3:7-19
Do not fail to believe again. - 4:1-13
Believe in your new High Priest. - 4:14-5:10***
Consequences of lapsing back into Judaism (falling away into unbelief) - 5:11-6:12
You should believe and hope because of the
---certainty of God's promise - 6:13-7:10,
---the new eternal High Priesthood - 7:11-21,
---who is the guarantee of a better covenant - 7:22-25, 8:7-13,
---through a superior Mediator - 7:26-8:6, 9:15,
---faith in Christ is same faith as faith in OT sacrifices - 9:1-28,
---which are fulfilled in Christ's once-for-all perfect atoning sacrifice of himself - 10:1-18
Therefore, believe and obey your new High Priest, do not lapse back (fall away into unbelief) - 10:19-39
Believe as the ancients believed God's land promise of an everlasting posssession, fulfilled in Jesus Christ - 11:1-38
Jesus is the example of perserverance in belief (faith, not falling away) - 12:1-13
Therefore, do not lapse back into Judaism (fall away into unbelief) - 12:14-28
Rules for Christian living, and closing - chp 13
***5:8-9 -- "he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect (complete, a propitiation),
he became the source of eternal salvation (atoning sacrifice) for all who obey him" -- meaning:
Jesus learned experientially in his ignominious suffering the price which obedience required.
His trial of obedience was completed (made perfect) by not losing his faith in his suffering on the tree.
Completing his obedience then secured his perfection (righteousness). . .(whereas Adam lost his perfection by disobedience).
His secured perfection (righteousness) made him a perfect sacrifice of atonement, and the source of salvation for all who obey him, which includes his command
to believe (Mk 1:15; Jn 1:12, 7:38-39).
See fulfillment of the promise to the patriarchs of an everlasting possession @ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2317448-post511.html
Jesus was not an angel, he was greater than an angel. - chp 1
Jesus was a man like us. - chp 2
Jesus was a man greater even than Moses. - 3:1-6
God's own people in the past failed to believe. - 3:7-19
Do not fail to believe again. - 4:1-13
Believe in your new High Priest. - 4:14-5:10***
Consequences of lapsing back into Judaism (falling away into unbelief) - 5:11-6:12
You should believe and hope because of the
---certainty of God's promise - 6:13-7:10,
---the new eternal High Priesthood - 7:11-21,
---who is the guarantee of a better covenant - 7:22-25, 8:7-13,
---through a superior Mediator - 7:26-8:6, 9:15,
---faith in Christ is same faith as faith in OT sacrifices - 9:1-28,
---which are fulfilled in Christ's once-for-all perfect atoning sacrifice of himself - 10:1-18
Therefore, believe and obey your new High Priest, do not lapse back (fall away into unbelief) - 10:19-39
Believe as the ancients believed God's land promise of an everlasting posssession, fulfilled in Jesus Christ - 11:1-38
Jesus is the example of perserverance in belief (faith, not falling away) - 12:1-13
Therefore, do not lapse back into Judaism (fall away into unbelief) - 12:14-28
Rules for Christian living, and closing - chp 13
***5:8-9 -- "he learned obedience from what he suffered and, once made perfect (complete, a propitiation),
he became the source of eternal salvation (atoning sacrifice) for all who obey him" -- meaning:
Jesus learned experientially in his ignominious suffering the price which obedience required.
His trial of obedience was completed (made perfect) by not losing his faith in his suffering on the tree.
Completing his obedience then secured his perfection (righteousness). . .(whereas Adam lost his perfection by disobedience).
His secured perfection (righteousness) made him a perfect sacrifice of atonement, and the source of salvation for all who obey him, which includes his command
to believe (Mk 1:15; Jn 1:12, 7:38-39).
See fulfillment of the promise to the patriarchs of an everlasting possession @ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2317448-post511.html
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Very interesting. . .that you would single me out for what is so commonly practiced by another. . .birds of a feather, 'n all. . .
I don't do "copy and paste," I do all my own typing, and re-submit my own posts.
They show proof from the record of my disputed points.
I'm not surprised that it annoys you to see proof from the record for my disputed points.
Funny that you should mention it! . . because
(1) angellous_evangellous openly admits that he is the cause of derailing your discussion. . .that it's his standard MO to try to irritate, rather than offer sincere and substantive replies to arguments presented, @ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2315778-post1353.html .
And you wonder why I "repeat", "link back", "waste," or whatever. . .he's counting on there being no way to expose his admitted game.
(2) He's counting on others to think he is sincere, and is offering "scholarly (a claim in which he likes to traffic, and which he much abuses in this fashion) evaluation"
of the argument, but which in reality is only meant to discredit personally.
(3) His goal is not to argue sincerely, his goal is to ridicule, mock, obfuscate, misrepresent and derail your point. . .so you'll go away and stop annihilating his arguments.
(4) Because he has no substantive argument he can make--from types, to unity of the Bible, to Scripture being the Word of God written--his goal is to enhance his reputation by diminishing yours. . .he and his responses should be re-evaluated in that light.
(5) It likewise should be noted that he is not in a theological or divinity program at the university, but is in a humanities program which, of course, does not make him a Scripture scholar. . .nor even a student of the Scriptures. . .and which explains his abysmal ignorance regarding them.
The smart money says he hasn't even read all of the NT, much less all of the OT.
But not to worry, he doesn't let his ignorance deter him in his MO of trying to discredit personally those with eminently more acquaintance with the Scriptures than he, who annihilate his non-arguments (of which in the past he has been fond of accusing others of making when he was unable to refute theirs).
And you wonder why your thread gets derailed and so off topic, and why it gets so acrimonious instead of going forward on your OP.
Well now he has admitted his insincere game of trying to irritate rather than dealing sincerely and substantively with the arguments.
(6) His MO is
---(a) to discredit personally, rather than refute the argument at hand;
---(b) to make belittling personal remarks in response to objective factual arguments;
---(c) to argue with the record, the facts and even the dictionary; or
---(d) to assert false charges, which are then demonstrated to be false by linking back to that part of the record at issue.
(7) He claims his own "honesty" and "truthfulness" in this acknowledged game, while at the same time he has the unmitigated gall to level charges of dishonesty, untruthfulness, plagiarizing, lying, deceit, etc. . .you name it. . .at his opponent. . .Now how's that for a double standard?
(8) He claims to admit when he is wrong, yet refuses to do so now in seven irrefutable proofs of his wrong arguments, following:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2300254-post1077.html for five irrefutable proofs of his wrong arguments, and
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2315215-post469.html for two more of his demonstrated false charges.
(9) And don't expect him to acknowledge any of the record presented here. . .sincerity is not in him. . .discrediting personally and "winning" are more important to him than sincerity and the truth of matters. . .and his refusal to acknowlege his wrong arguments and false charges above only gives the lie to his claims of "honesty" and "truthfulness."
-------------------------------------
EDIT: He subsequently called me an *** for this post, to which I responded with Jdg 15:16:
"With an ***'s jawbone (here),
an *** was made of him."
--------------------------------------
In sum, I am willing to let the record speak for me. . .the question: . .is he?
Take it up with him. . .his acknowledged and insincere games are your problem. . .but that game is so over, sparky.
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A
angellous_evangellous
Guest
You're only embarrassing yourself.
I could care less that you're doing that, but it's just ironic. Your posts are bad enough without trying to insult people in a way that makes you look incompetent.
Ben Masada
Well-Known Member
If Jewish laws can be fulfilled? But of course they can. If they couldn't there were no Jews.
Game over. . .to the showers. . .---> http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2318652-post514.html
You're only embarrassing yourself.
I could care less that you're doing that, but it's just ironic. Your posts are bad enough without trying to insult people in a way that makes you look incompetent.
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free spirit
Well-Known Member
BEN You are deluding yourself, no one can live a life to the end without sin, and when you sin once you are a breaker of the law and not a fulfiller of the law.
BUT by the grace of Jesus Christ (a Jew) there is a way around it for we read in Romans 3:19-31,
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may became accountable to God;
because by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the Prophets,
even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
being justified WITH a gift OF his grace through the redemption, which is in Christ Jesus;
Whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in his blood through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because in the forbearance of God he passed over the sins previously committed,
for the demonstration, I say of his righteousness at the present time, that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles? Yes, of Gentiles also,
since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
Do we then nullify the law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary we establish the law." Amen to that.
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Harmonious
Well-Known Member
No, he's not. You are right, that no one can live a life to the end without sin. But the thing you are missing - and this is important - is that we can recognize our sin, stop the sin, and ask forgiveness. And God promised he will give it.
God never expected an "all or nothing" situation. He knows that we are not perfect. Only God is perfect. Our job is not perfection, but to do our best. God will do the rest.
One is only branded a law breaker if, and only if, one ceased from trying. Making a mistake does not a law breaker make. Falling to temptation a couple of times does not a law breaker make.
If one makes it one's business to fulfill as much of the law as it is possible to accomplish, one is regarded BY GOD as a fullfiller of the law.
It is only people who believe in Jesus' ego-filled nonsense that says that God demanded perfection (which He never did, but that didn't stop Jesus from declaring that He did) who believe that because people can't be perfect, we "need" Jesus to save us from ourselves.
By declaring that, Jesus created the need for himself.
We didn't need him before he made this declaration. We don't need him now. We only need to follow the law to the best of our ability (which, admittedly, isn't always easy to do) and we are good with God.
That's not what Jesus said, but you know... I don't particularly care what Jesus had to say.
Pegg
Jehovah our God is One
it seems he expected all or nothing from adam and eve...they sinned once and were condemned to death
one mistake was all it took. We make many more then just one mistake...and we are all dying too
So what does that all mean in terms of forgiveness? God will forgive us, but we still have to die?
whats the point of the forgiveness? Your scriptures say that when we die we return to the dust and our consciousness ceases... so what good is forgiveness if we still have to die.