Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[smokydot]

But what about your crimes on this thread?

Changing the topic isn't going to divert anyone's attention.

Whose changing the topic?

All you gotta' do is show 'em. . .instead of whining about 'em. . .

Time for you to get outa' Dodge! . .see ya' back at the barn. . .

 

[Harmonious]

Yep, it does. . .and that's where I got it.

No, you didn't. You used a concordance. I used my knowledge of the Hebrew language.

You used your knowledge from which ever concordance you used.

I'm beginning to think I should take back the benefit of the doubt I gave you. You ARE a rip-off artist. You are saying that the concordance is YOUR knowledge of Hebrew.

:tsk: I was trying to help. Now I know I shouldn't have bothered.

 

[BigRed]

Gen 3:4, "You will not surely die."

The Serpent did not lie when he said.."You will not surely die."
You have to understand the conversation between Eve and the Serpent.
Look at the previous verse.....Genesis 3:3
"'but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'"

Eve is telling the Serpent that God said.....if you eat the fruit you will surely die.
The Serpent replies concerning the fruit...."You will not surely die." This is a true statement. The fruit didn't kill Adam and Eve. It was not poisonous. There was nothing wrong with the fruit.
God caused the eventual death of Adam and Eve by denying them access to the fruit of the tree of life.

Look at this analogy.....
Let's say a man tells you that if you eat Pizza you will surely die.
I tell you...... you will not surely die. [if you eat Pizza].
Have I lied to you? Does eating Pizza result in death? Of course not. Just as eating fruit does not cause death.
But if after you eat Pizza, the man puts a plastic bag over your head and denies you access to oxygen....does that now make me a liar?

BigRed

 

[BigRed]

I was asking where in Genesis does it report that God took away the speech of the snake. . .

Have you ever encounted a talking snake?

BigRed

 

[Harmonious]

Neither one of you knows what a concordance is. . .

Of course I know what one is. It tells you of all the times a word is used, particularly in the Bible.

However, not enough authors are familiar enough with the ebb and flow of the Hebrew language, so they give you what they THINK is the proper context. However, just because Strongs or Briggs, or whoever, gives examples of occurrences, that doesn't mean that they understand the usage of the word as someone who actually USES HEBREW ON A DAILY BASIS would know it.

They only kinda sorta know it in a quasi-scholarly way, because they have tracked down all the times it is used without actually understanding the grammatical usage. They often GIVE EXAMPLES of "grammatical usage", but they aren't always correct.

 

[Harmonious]

I was asking where in Genesis does it report that God took away the speech of the snake. . .

Huh. How do you like that? I thought that was in a verse. Apparently, it was an oral learning that I mistakenly thought was in Genesis proper.

You are right. Good for you.

 

[Harmonious]

Have you ever encounted a talking snake?

BigRed

Nice.

 

[BigRed]

Same old Christ-rejecting denial. . .

But there you have it anyway:

"For if we go on sinning willfully"; i.e., intentional sin of Nu 15:22-31

"after receiving the knowledge of the truth"; i.e., of Jesus' perfect atoning sacrifice for sin

"there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins"; i.e., because you reject the only one there is, and there is no other remaining

It's as plain as the nose on your face. . .

Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

What makes you think that Jesus could die for your sins?
""""everyone shall be put to death for his own sin."""

BigRed

 

[Pegg]

Jews sin over and over and Christians as well sin over and over.
I suppose we could say it's "human nature."
If a Jew sins, the priest sacrifices again and the Jew is forgiven and the slate is clean.

and this is what it means that the animal sacrifices could not take sin away. Paul was quite correct in that regard.

But Christians have a problem.
If a Chrisian sins, can Jesus get back on the cross again? No he can't!
This following Scripture from Hebrews decribes the Christian problem.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

This is one of those Scriptures that they never read in church.
If they read this in church, and people realized that they continually sin, they would know that they are lost. Their sins were forgiven one time. Now they are on their own. ""it is impossible to renew them again to repentance""

BigRed

sadly, your interpretation of Pauls words are mistaken. Paul is speaking about those who turn away from God after being enlightened. If a person chooses to willfully live against God after coming to an accurate knowledge of him and of Christ, and he unrepentantly continues in sin, then that person is defiling Christs sacrifice and will be rejected by God.

and this is exactly the same for the Jews. If they unrepentantly turn away from God and refuse to follow his commands deliberately, then they are to be cast off from Isreal. Psalm 119:118 "You have tossed away all those straying from your regulations

2Kings 17:14-18 "...and they continued rejecting his regulations and his covenant that he had concluded with their forefathers and his reminders with which he had warned them, and they went following vain idols and became vain themselves, ...
18 Therefore Jehovah got very incensed against Israel, so that he removed them from his sight

there is no 'get out of jail free card' for christians, we are as responsible for our actions/sins as the jews were.

 

[BigRed]

and this is what it means that the animal sacrifices could not take sin away. Paul was quite correct in that regard.



sadly, your interpretation of Pauls words are mistaken. Paul is speaking about those who turn away from God after being enlightened. If a person chooses to willfully live against God after coming to an accurate knowledge of him and of Christ, and he unrepentantly continues in sin, then that person is defiling Christs sacrifice and will be rejected by God.

and this is exactly the same for the Jews. If they unrepentantly turn away from God and refuse to follow his commands deliberately, then they are to be cast off from Isreal. Psalm 119:118 "You have tossed away all those straying from your regulations

2Kings 17:14-18 "...and they continued rejecting his regulations and his covenant that he had concluded with their forefathers and his reminders with which he had warned them, and they went following vain idols and became vain themselves, ...
18 Therefore Jehovah got very incensed against Israel, so that he removed them from his sight

there is no 'get out of jail free card' for christians, we are as responsible for our actions/sins as the jews were.

It is obvious that the Jewish system was working to remove sin, no matter how much you assert to the contrary.
Luke 1:5-6
5In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

The Law which God gave to Israel through Moses was working fine for Zach and Liz.
They were "righteous" and "blameless"....what more could one ask?

BigRed

 

[Pegg]

You're on the right track on this one, Pegg. . .the letter to the Hebrews reveals that it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away (remit)
sin (Heb 10:4, 11). . .they only covered sin (Heb 9:13), God no longer held their sin against them, but God still "remembered" it.

there is one important point that has not really been mentioned and that is that there are our own personal sins which we commit and then there is Adamic sin...that is the sin we are born with

Pauls words in Romans shows that the sin Christs sacrifice covers is primarily 'adamic sin' for he says
'sin entered the world and death through sin, and death spread to all men because they had all sinned' So Adams death penalty was automatically passed onto all his offspring and we die as a result

this is what Jesus sacrifice does away with...the inherent sinfulness that we are born with. God forgets this sin and holds this sin against us no more. Our own personal sins if we continue in them, well that is another matter.

 

[Pegg]

It is important to notice that the Fruit didn't kill Adam and Eve.
It is important to notice that contrary to Christian dogma the Serpent didn't lie.
BigRed

Are Adam and Eve are still alive?

 

[Pegg]

So... I'm not convinced that the serpent DID lie. Death wasn't instantaneous, and it took over 930 years for any signs of mortality to start showing up.

When we take into consideration that how God sees time is different to how we see it, then it becomes apparent that Adam did die in the same day that he ate from the tree

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past,
And as a watch during the night

2Peter3:8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day

I realize that you believe that the snake was an avatar for the embodiment of evil, but that is your belief. According to mine, it was nothing more than a walking, talking snake. And one of its punishments was God's taking away its power of speech.

the christian view is that the snake was Satan the Devil who used a snake as a mouth piece.
Rev. 20:2 “And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.”

this thought is in harmony with the book of Job about this rebellious spirit being on the earth and secretly interfering with mankind
Job 1:6-7 “it came to be the day when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them. Then Jehovah said to Satan: ‘Where do you come from?’ At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: ‘From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.’”

 

[astarath]

Absolutely it was fulfilled in Christ

 

[Pegg]

What lie or lies did the Serpent tell? [Please provide chapter and verse]

BigRed

Genesis 3:1-5 "Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

They did die, and they certainly did not become like God...although many religions continue to teach this lie that we dont die and we become like God when our life changes from a physical creation to a spiritual creation

 

[BigRed]

there is one important point that has not really been mentioned and that is that there are our own personal sins which we commit and then there is Adamic sin...that is the sin we are born with

Pauls words in Romans shows that the sin Christs sacrifice covers is primarily 'adamic sin' for he says
'sin entered the world and death through sin, and death spread to all men because they had all sinned' So Adams death penalty was automatically passed onto all his offspring and we die as a result

this is what Jesus sacrifice does away with...the inherent sinfulness that we are born with. God forgets this sin and holds this sin against us no more. Our own personal sins if we continue in them, well that is another matter.

Deuteronomy 24:16
Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

Just because Paul says.... ""sin entered the world and death through sin, and death spread to all men because they had all sinned'"""..... And you assert...."So Adam's death penalty was automatically passed onto all his offspring and we die as a result."
DOESN"T MAKE IT TRUE.

Read Deuteronomy 24:16 again...
Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

According to the Hebrew Scriptures, we don't die for Adam's sin.

If you find any Scripture to the contrary ...then the Bible has a contradiction.
BigRed

 

[BigRed]

Genesis 3:1-5 "Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. 3 But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “YOU positively will not die. 5 For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

They did die, and they certainly did not become like God...although many religions continue to teach this lie that we dont die and we become like God when our life changes from a physical creation to a spiritual creation

"""For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”""

So you think the above statement is a lie? Really?
You didn't read far enough in your Bible.....
Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--

See ..the Serpent didn't lie.

BigRed

 

[Pegg]

It is obvious that the Jewish system was working to remove sin, no matter how much you assert to the contrary.
Luke 1:5-6
5In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.

The Law which God gave to Israel through Moses was working fine for Zach and Liz.
They were "righteous" and "blameless"....what more could one ask?

BigRed

no amount of animal sacrifices could remove Adamic sin from us or the jews.. only God can remove it by allowing us to live rather then die

this is why after 6,000 years of human history, people are still dying...even the ones who were getting thing right with God...even the ones who God said were upright and righteous..even the man Job who God said was 'perfect' still died.

 

[BigRed]

Are Adam and Eve are still alive?

No Adam and Eve are not alive.
They died because God denied them access to the tree of life.
When they continued to eat the fruit of the tree of life they continued to live.
But just as we need oxygen to live, Adam and Eve needed the fruit of the tree of life to keep on living.
God snuffed out their lives by depriving them of the nutrition of the fruit, just as you will die if someone slowly deprives you of oxygen.

BigRed

 

[BigRed]

no amount of animal sacrifices could remove Adamic sin from us or the jews.. only God can remove it by allowing us to live rather then die

this is why after 6,000 years of human history, people are still dying...even the ones who were getting thing right with God...even the ones who God said were upright and righteous..even the man Job who God said was 'perfect' still died.

And Jesus died....and people continue to die.
BigRed