Can Jewish law be fulfilled?

[smokydot]

My pleasure. Her voice truly is her instrument.

I'm listening to this kid right now.

[youtube]leAy6yzelm0[/youtube]
YouTube - (Eric Clapton) Wonderful Tonight - Sungha Jung

Beautiful. . .he is absolutely transported by the music. . .in both videos, the eyes were remarkable.

 

[Muffled]

You brought it up.


Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

There is no curse. And all you're doing is more sidetracking.

Paul was wrong. Paul was purporting his own theological ideas, and can't even support them all of the time. This is one example of him not being able to support the idea that there is a curse of the law. The law is not a curse.

Even the scripture he is citing opposes what he is saying.
[/quote]

Anyone who has ever tried to live by the law knows what a curse it is. I, like Pilgrim in "Pilgrim's Progress" was very glad to be free of that heavy burden. * He breaks into a verse of "Burdens are Lifted at Calvary. *

So it is a metaphor, the law itself is not a curse but having to keep it is, but then the law was a palliative anyway.

Perhaps you could flesh out your reasoning on this since your conclusion is not obvious to me.

 

[smokydot]

Here is something I wrote recently.
Do you see a relevant connection to evil?

Bible God does not exist. "God is Love" 1John 4:8 But Bible God endorses slavery, polygamy, genocide, and the murder of Heretics and Homosexuals. Bible God treats women as 2nd class citizens, and he is prejudiced against the handicapped. Bible God intends to burn Billions in Hell for all eternity. This is not love. "God is love" is contradicted by the above mentioned unloving actions. Therefore Bible God does not exist.

BigRed

Marvellous misunderstanding of Scripture. . .

 

[Muffled]

Eventually.

But I'm not sure how to think about that. Either people will consistently start making the right choice, or God will rescind free will.

I've never been comfortable thinking of that "end of time" scenario, as the prophecies are there, but I don't understand how this concept works based on my belief system.

In other words... Maybe, but I really don't have the vocabulary to discuss it intelligently.

This approximates the reality. However God is not forcing this on anyone. He does this for those willing to cede their free will by making Jesus Lord.

 

[Harmonious]

does that mean the belief is that a kingdom will rule all the earth from jerusalem?

No. It means that he will rule all of Israel, where the Jews (and our neighbors) will live in peace. And the other nations of the world will seek his counsel, because he will be a scholar and a just arbiter of law.

 

[smokydot]

Hebrews1:5
For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?

BigRed

The operative word here is "begotten" son.

 

[smokydot]

Not necessarily. Two were MENTIONED.

We don't know that four were not exiled.

Nor do we know that four were.

All we know are two. . .we have no basis for anything else.

 

[Harmonious]

Anyone who has ever tried to live by the law knows what a curse it is.

Like me, huh?

I can honestly say that anyone who has ever tried to live by the law knows what an absolute blessing it is.

See, it helps to not only KNOW people who live by the law, but to BE someone who lives by Torah law.

And it annoys me to hear people like YOU, who probably never grokked the whole system of belief and law, speak of the way I live my life and God's gift to the Jews as a curse.

I, like Pilgrim in "Pilgrim's Progress" was very glad to be free of that heavy burden. * He breaks into a verse of "Burdens are Lifted at Calvary. *

Considering that you're not Jewish, it was never yours to carry.

And people ask me why the obligations of Jews and non-Jews are different... The simple answer is that non-Jews WOULD find the full complement of commandments that God gave the Jews burdensome.

That is why non-Jews have SEVEN laws to deal with, and Jews have a collective 613 commandments to contend with.

 

[Harmonious]

This approximates the reality. However God is not forcing this on anyone.

Interesting idea.

He does this for those willing to cede their free will by making Jesus Lord.

Pity that this has no bearing on reality.

See how that works?

 

[smokydot]

Yup.
Well...
You see... In general, I would say that you are right. As far as the gospels are concerned, Jesus is never seen to look for a wife, to be married (which fulfills a LOT of commandments right there, all by itself), and to fulfill the commandment of being fruitful and multiplying.
However... There are a few examples of when that is impossible for a born Jew to fulfill.
That would be if the child is born a Mamzer, or a Halachic *******. This would not be simply a child born out of wedlock, but a child born from incest or adultery.
Mary and Joseph were married. And Jesus was NOT Joseph's biological child. Therefore, Jesus might have been considered a child born of adultery. As such, he was a Mamzer, and it would have been forbidden for him to marry a woman who was born Jewish.
Oddly enough, there are two categories of Jewish women a Mamzer is permitted to marry. One, is a Mamzeret - a woman born in the same forbidden circumstances. Should that be the case, the children of that marriage would not be permitted to marry other born Jews "until the tenth generation."
The other is a woman who was a convert to Judaism.
Jesus could have tried to marry a convert to Judaism. Or he might have been sensitive to the idea that he would not have been able to marry a born Jewish woman.
If THAT were the case, Jesus' whole lackadaisical attitude towards family and the importance of family makes a lot more sense, though it isn't exactly the most flattering light to put on the man...

Jesus came to die according to the Scriptures, not to raise a family.

 

[Pegg]

That is why non-Jews have SEVEN laws to deal with, and Jews have a collective 613 commandments to contend with.

what are the 7 laws?

 

[Harmonious]

what are the 7 laws?

1) Do not serve idols and false gods and deities.

2) Do not curse God or His Name.

3) Do not murder.

4) Do not steal, kidnap, or anything of that nature.

5) Do not commit incest, adultery, or other sexual immorality.

6) Do not tear a limb from an animal while it lives. (If you want to meat, enjoy whatever it is. Just make sure it's dead first.)

7) Establish (and live lawfully under the jurisdiction of) a court of law that upholds the other six.

 

[Harmonious]

You can learn more about them here: Noachide.org.uk - The Bnai Noach of the UK

 

[Pegg]

1) Do not serve idols and false gods and deities.

2) Do not curse God or His Name.

3) Do not murder.

4) Do not steal, kidnap, or anything of that nature.

5) Do not commit incest, adultery, or other sexual immorality.

6) Do not tear a limb from an animal while it lives. (If you want to meat, enjoy whatever it is. Just make sure it's dead first.)

7) Establish (and live lawfully under the jurisdiction of) a court of law that upholds the other six.

are these laws set out in the scriptures somewhere?

 

[Harmonious]

are these laws set out in the scriptures somewhere?

Not in a nice, neat little package.

But the idea is referenced all around.

From the site I cited, a list of what the commandments are and where they can be referenced:

Literally: Strange/foreign work/service - i.e. serving an idol or false deity.

Prohibition against: Idolatry (the deification or worship of any object, creature, human being, or power other than the One True G-d.)​

Commandment to: Believe and trust in G-d alone, as the Almighty Creator and Sustainer of the World.​

This commandment includes the belief in G-d, that He is the creator of everything and He is constantly creating everything anew, and guides everything by His Providence. Indeed the very essence of life is to recognize and believe in the Supreme Being, the Creator of the universe, accepting His laws with awe and love. He is aware of our deeds, and His Providence is over all of creation.​

Refer to: Exodus 20:3-4

Literally: ‘Blessing’ the Divine Name. - i.e. Cursing G-d​

Prohibition against: Blasphemy​

Commandment to: Respect and praise G-d and His holy Names.​

This commandment forbids cursing G-d (G-d forbid) in anyway. Trust and loyalty are crucial in life. Know that G-d is just, but humans can’t comprehend our Creator, Who is infinite. One shouldn’t extend his “freedom of speech” to the extreme of blasphemy. Don’t speak against the One Who gave you speech! ​

Refer to: Leviticus 24:15


Literally: Spilling blood​

Prohibition against: Murder​

Commandment to: Respect the sanctity of human life.​

This commandment includes prohibitions of murder, abortion (except to save the mothers life), euthanasia and suicide (G-d forbid). This edict protects us from the extremes of selfishness and the violent tendencies that may lie within.​

Refer to: Genesis 9:6


​

Literally: Exposure of nakedness - i.e. knowing someone in a forbidden sexual way.​

Prohibition against: Sexual transgressions (i.e. incest, adultery, homosexual acts, castration and bestiality etc)​

Commandment to: Respect traditional family values, because G-d defined marriage.​

This commandment prohibits a gentile man from six immoral acts: with your mother, with your fathers wife, with a another mans wife, with your maternal sister, with an animal, and with another man. Wholesome families are a basis of healthy communities, nations and societies. Sexual transgressions lead to inner spiritual decay.​

Refer to: Genesis 2:24


Literally: To rob, steal or embezzle.​

Prohibition against: Theft (Includes rape and abduction)​

Commandment to: Respect the rights and property of others.​

This commandment prohibits stealing money or goods, a person (kidnapping), or even stealing from your employer. Since our sustenance comes from G-d, we should seek to earn it with honesty and dignity, not through deceit.​

Refer to: Genesis 2:17


Literally: Limb of the living.​

Prohibition against: Eating a limb or any meat taken from a live animal​

Commandment to: Respect all creatures and avoid cruelty.​

This commandment also prohibits cruelty to animals. Humans are given dominion over the Earth, but we are also its caretakers. Although we may make use of animals, we cannot cause them undue suffering. This commandment prohibits meat taken from an animal while its heart was still beating.​

Refer to: Genesis 9:3-4


Literally: Judgement, justice, and law etc.​

Prohibition against: Injustice, Societies with no legal system and breaching Torah law.​

Commandment to: Establish a Just legal system, and pursue Justice​

The descendents of Noah are obligated to create a judicial system to enforce the other six commandments. A fair and effective legal system creates a society worthy of G-d’s blessings. It brings G-d’s ideals for our personal life into a formal order for society, and completes the other six commandments. Justice is the foundation of world peace.​

Refer to: Genesis 34:2-4.​

My source

 

[BigRed]

No. It means that he will rule all of Israel, where the Jews (and our neighbors) will live in peace. And the other nations of the world will seek his counsel, because he will be a scholar and a just arbiter of law.

Micah 4:1-5
1And it will come about in the last days
That the mountain of the house of the LORD
Will be established as the chief of the mountains
It will be raised above the hills,
And the peoples will stream to it.
2Many nations will come and say,
"Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD
And to the house of the God of Jacob,
That He may teach us about His ways
And that we may walk in His paths "
For from Zion will go forth the law,
Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3And He will judge between many peoples
And render decisions for mighty, distant nations
Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they train for war.
4Each of them will sit under his vine
And under his fig tree,
With no one to make them afraid,
For the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.
5Though all the peoples walk
Each in the name of his god,
As for us, we will walk
In the name of the LORD our God forever and ever.

BigRed

 

[Harmonious]

Yup. He will render decisions for them because they will ASK him to, but he won't rule them, as a matter of course.

 

[Harmonious]

Here is another listing, rendering the Seven Laws as Seven Categories, but actually 66 laws.
****************************************
Although there are only Seven Noachide Commandments, it is possible to subdivide them into 66 subdivisions according to Dr. Aaron Lichtenstein in his book 'The Seven Laws of Noah'. He bases these subdivisions on Rabbi Moses Maimonides' 613 commandments for Jews. Of these subdivisions there are 52 Negative and 14 Positive.

N.B. - Please note that some of these additional laws should be treated as a list of recommendations and not as the actual accepted Halacha. For further explanation of this you should consult your Local Orthodox Rabbi or the new Shulchan Aruch for Bnei Noach: ‘The Divine Code’.

​

I. No Idolatry​

1. "Against entertaining the thought that there exists a deity except HaShem."​

Negative Mitzvah 1​

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods besides Me"​

2. "Against making any graven image [& against having anyone else make one for us]."​

Negative Mitzvah 2​

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods besides Me"​

3. "Against making idols for use by others."​

Negative Mitzvah 3​

Leviticus 19:4 "Do not make gods out of metal, for yourselves"​

4. "Against making any forbidden statues [even when they are for ornamental purposes]."​

Negative Mitzvah 4​

Exodus 20:20 "Do not make with Me gods of silver, neither shall you make for yourselves gods of gold"​

5. "Against bowing to any idol [& not to sacrifice nor to pour libation nor to burn incense before any idol, even where it is not the customary manner of worship to the particular idol]."​

Negative Mitzvah 5​

Exodus 20:5 "Do not bow down to them"​

6. "Against worshipping idols in any of their customary manners of worship."​

Negative Mitzvah 6​

Exodus 20:5 "Do not worship them"​

7. "Against causing our children to pass [through the fire] in the worship of Molech." In ancient times, the worship of "Molech" - an Ammonite G-d - was very common, and it required that children be used for the ritual ceremony.​

Negative Mitzvah 7​

Leviticus 18:21 "Do not give any of your children to set them apart to Molech"​

8. "Against practicing Ov." [Ov is Divination using a mantra to obtain a meditative trance to commune with the dead]​

Negative Mitzvah 8​

Leviticus 19:31 "Do not turn to mediums"​

9. "Against practicing Yiddoni." [A Yiddoni involves ritual acts and meditation as a means of imaginary prophecy]​

Negative Mitzvah 9​

Leviticus 19:31 "Do not turn to oracles"​

10. "Against turning to idolatry [in word, in thought, in deed, or by any observance that may draw us to its worship]."​

Negative Mitzvah 10​

Leviticus 19:4 "Do not turn to idols"​

http://www.noachide.org.uk/html/66_commandments.html

 

[Harmonious]

II. No blasphemy​

1. "To acknowledge the existence of G-d."​

Positive Mitzvah 1​

Exodus 20:2 "I am the L-rd, your G-d"​

2. "To fear G-d."​

Positive Mitzvah 4​

Deuteronomy 6:13 "You shall fear the L-rd, your G-d"​

3. "To pray to Him."​

Positive Mitzvah 5​

Exodus 23:25 "And you shall serve the L-rd, your G-d"​

4. "To sanctify G-d's name [in face of death, where appropriate]."​

Positive Mitzvah 9​

Leviticus 22:32 "But I will be sanctified among the Children of Israel"​

5. "Against desecrating G-d's name [even in face of death, when appropriate]." "Chillul HaShem"​

Negative Mitzvah 63​

Leviticus 22:32 "Neither shall you profane My holy name"​

6. "To study the Torah."​

Positive Mitzvah 11​

Deuteronomy 6:7 "And you shall teach them diligently to your children."​

7. "To honour the scholars, and to revere one's teacher."​

Positive Mitzvah 209​

Leviticus 19:32 "You shall stand up before an elderly person and give respect to a sage"​

8. "Against blaspheming.," "Birkat HaShem"​

Negative Mitzvah 60​

Exodus 22:27 "Do not curse G-d"​

http://www.noachide.org.uk/html/66_commandments.html

 

[Harmonious]

III. No theft​

1. "Against stealing, [i.e., by stealth]" ​

Negative Mitzvah 244​

Leviticus 19:11 "Do not steal"​

2. "Against committing robbery, [i.e., openly]" ​

Negative Mitzvah 245​

Leviticus 19:13 "Do not commit robbery"​

3. "Against shifting a landmark." ​

Negative Mitzvah 246​

Deuteronomy 19:14 "You shall not remove your neighbor's boundary marker"​

4. "Against cheating."​

Negative Mitzvah 247​

Leviticus 19:13 "You shall not defraud your neighbor"​

5. "Against repudiating a claim of money owed."​

Negative Mitzvah 248​

Leviticus 19:11 "You shall not reply falsely"​

6. "Against overcharging."​

Negative Mitzvah 250​

Leviticus 25:14 "You shall not defraud one another"​

7. "Against coveting."​

Negative Mitzvah 265​

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house"​

8. "Against desiring."​

Negative Mitzvah 266​

Deuteronomy 5:18 "You shall not desire your neighbor's house"​

9. "A labourer shall be allowed to eat of the fruits among which he works [under certain conditions]."​

Positive Mitzvah 201​

Deuteronomy 23:2 "When you come (to work) in your neighbor's vineyard, you may eat the grapes...you may Pluck the ears"​

10. "Against a labourer eating of such fruit [when certain conditions are not met]."​

Negative Mitzvah 267​

Deuteronomy 23:26 "You shall not waive a sickle to your neighbor's standing grain"​

11. "Against a labourer taking of such fruit home."​

Negative Mitzvah 268​

Deuteronomy 23:25 "When you come into your neighbor's vineyard, then you may eat your fill of grapes at your desire; but you shall not put any in your container"​

12. "Against kidnapping."​

Negative Mitzvah 243​

Exodus 20:13 "Do not steal"​

13. "Against the use of false weights & measures."​

Negative Mitzvah 271​

Leviticus 19:35 "You shall do no unrighteousness in judgment; in length, in weight or in measure"​

14. "Against the possession of false weights & measures."​

Negative Mitzvah 272​

Deuteronomy 25:13 "You shall not have in your bag diverse weights, one large and one small"​

15 "That one shall be exact in the use of weights & measures."​

Positive Mitzvah 208​

Leviticus 19:36 "Honest balance, honest weights, an honest dry measure and an honest liquid measure, you shall have"​

16. "That the robber shall return [or pay for] the stolen object."​

Positive Mitzvah 194​

Leviticus 5:23 "He shall return that which he stole"​

http://www.noachide.org.uk/html/66_commandments.html