Can morality arise from natural selection?

[Prophet]

It is a fairly common atheist claim that evolution can create morality.

Question for debate: Can morality arise from natural selection? Futhermore, can the morality we experience be shown to be congruent with a model of morality that arises from natural selection?

 

[Photonic]

It is a fairly common atheist claim that evolution can create morality.

Question for debate: Can morality arise from natural selection? Futhermore, can the morality we experience be shown to be congruent with a model of morality that arises from natural selection?

Should be fairly obvious but yes. It's called social behavior.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Should be fairly obvious but yes. It's called social behavior.

I was going to say something a bit more detailed, but yeah, what Photonic said.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

Morality is simple, evolved control structure for individual decision making. If the science is not in one hundred percent agreement with this, it is only a matter of time.

When you talk of "models of morality," my mind translates "ethical standard." Note the lack of universal ethical standard.

 

[swamplizard]

Perhaps morality is a perception within a communal evolutionary sense.
Perhaps morality is a concept of survival orientation.
Perhaps morality is completely unique to one.

Perhaps I am rambling,
best,
swampy

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Yes. Cooperation and altruism are programmed into our DNA

 

[Storm]

Fundamental premises, sure. The finer points require philosophy, however.

 

[Prophet]

Self-sacrificial love is clearly a proponent of morality. How does it persist if morality arises by evolutionary means? This paradox is fairly well known.

Shouldn't the evolutionary model of morality kill off any morals which cause weakness? Sure, cooperation is nice for survival, but it also would be helpful to be able to fully disregard any being not in your cooperative group. Why isn't bigotry a moral positive? Why do we think it is immoral to be cruel to an animal, even those we regard only as pests or food?

I don't see any congruence.

 

[Photonic]

Yes. Cooperation and altruism are programmed into our DNA

Turns out they are programmed into rats too.

Altruistic Rats: First Evidence For Generalized Reciprocal Cooperation In Non-humans

 

[Storm]

Self-sacrificial love is clearly a proponent of morality. How does it persist if morality arises by evolutionary means? This paradox is fairly well known.

Shouldn't the evolutionary model of morality kill off any morals which cause weakness? Sure, cooperation is nice for survival, but it also would be helpful to be able to fully disregard any being not in your cooperative group. Why isn't bigotry a moral positive? Why do we think it is immoral to be cruel to an animal, even those we regard only as pests or food?

I don't see any congruence.

Well, take "don't murder people." Someone who ran around killing his tribe's children would be killed in turn in short order.

That said, see my first post. Bigotry would be one of said finer points.

 

[Photonic]

Self-sacrificial love is clearly a proponent of morality. How does it persist if morality arises by evolutionary means? This paradox is fairly well known.

Shouldn't the evolutionary model of morality kill off any morals which cause weakness? Sure, cooperation is nice for survival, but it also would be helpful to be able to fully disregard any being not in your cooperative group. Why isn't bigotry a moral positive? Why do we think it is immoral to be cruel to an animal, even those we regard only as pests or food?

I don't see any congruence.

Except. You know...it's not a paradox.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070703173345.htm

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

Self-sacrificial love is clearly a proponent of morality. How does it persist if morality arises by evolutionary means? This paradox is fairly well known.

Shouldn't the evolutionary model of morality kill off any morals which cause weakness? Sure, cooperation is nice for survival, but it also would be helpful to be able to fully disregard any being not in your cooperative group. Why isn't bigotry a moral positive? Why do we think it is immoral to be cruel to an animal, even those we regard only as pests or food?

I don't see any congruence.

You are putting conditionals to love, which is unconditional. As an evolved consideration, morality is concerned with species survival over individual survival. An act of self-sacrifice over an animal is not always seen as altruistic. What makes humans different is simulation and communication; the more we learn, the less different we seem to be from our friends in the animal kingdom.

 

[Prophet]

For the record, there is only one moral rule in my whole model of morality: Be selfless.

I would be happy to challenge anyone to give an alternate set of morality rules and compare them to my one rule.

We will see if I can't force you folks to add a few more rules.

 

[Revoltingest]

Can & does.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

For the record, there is only one moral rule in my whole model of morality: Be selfless.

I would be happy to challenge anyone to give an alternate set of morality rules and compare them to my one rule.

We will see if I can't force you folks to add a few more rules.

What's with the forcing, Prophet?

My morality is zero-state and a complement to dual-state identity, making me 1 individual. What you have is an ethical standard in "be selfless" that seems to translate into my "I love." No worries.

 

[Tristesse]

For the record, there is only one moral rule in my whole model of morality: Be selfless.

I would be happy to challenge anyone to give an alternate set of morality rules and compare them to my one rule.

We will see if I can't force you folks to add a few more rules.

Decreasing the amount of harm and suffering in the world. However, most acts of selflessness actually have a benefit to the individual who is selfless, so in a way it's a form of selfishness.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

See The Biological Basis of Morality by E. O. Wilson.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

We'll use an example from grammar. In a sentence, there's always: subject-verb-object. Now apply this to morality. The subject, whether it be you, me, or whoever, the verb, which is the action done, and the main body of the morality, and the subject, which, in the case of morality, is almost always another person. If you act in an immoral way toward another person, the tribe/community is likely to reprimand you. Do it enough, and you get kicked out of the tribe, thereby signing your death warrant. Now, what are some immoral actions, generally considered? Things like envy, jealousy, battery, theft, murder, adultery. Instead of prescribing an equal moral to each one, they can all be summed up as: love. Generally, selfless love. So no, sacrificial love, as you put it, does not have to come from a higher source, but comes from evolution.

 

[Prophet]

You are putting conditionals to love, which is unconditional. As an evolved consideration, morality is concerned with species survival over individual survival. An act of self-sacrifice over an animal is not always seen as altruistic. What makes humans different is simulation and communication; the more we learn, the less different we seem to be from our friends in the animal kingdom.

I agree that love is unconditional. I was merely saying that evolution cannot explain unconditional love. You are basically doing with love what fundamentalists do with God. You seem to secretly equate unconditional with "not having to make sense". Is that it? Do you believe that love, like God, works in mysterious ways that don't have to be explained? Do you think your model of morality should be excused for having no explanation for how selfless love could possibly survive when those who fully express it die as a result?

Morality is often concerned with species survival, yet brute force nature only cares about the individual. Evolution tries all the different traits and by brute force finds what is superior for survival. Animals that are prey to other animals will either die off or evolve superior traits making it capable of surviving.

If everyone else is playing by the rules, doesn't cheating give me an individual competitive advantage?

 

[Prophet]

What's with the forcing, Prophet?

My morality is zero-state and a complement to dual-state identity, making me 1 individual. What you have is an ethical standard in "be selfless" that seems to translate into my "I love." No worries.

Love and selflessness are indeed logically identical.