Can morality arise from natural selection?

[Prophet]

Since you've quoted the Bible, let me ask you this: is the only reason why a Christian follows god to stay out of hell? That's been the main argument I've seen here, and heard preached for years as a Christian, to actually follow God. It seems to me that there is a little bit of selfishness, no matter how minute, in each action, no matter how grand and holy.

I was raised a fundamentalist Christian, but I am no longer. Fundamentalist Christians are about to find me offensive.

There's no doubt about it. Modern Christianity is hypocrisy. Good that is not selfless is an act. The Roman Empire won out in the battle to control the direction of the following gained by the prophet Jesus by force. They burned all the Christian documents, many of which were recovered in the Nag Hammadi library in 1945.

Edit: Just want to add that hell is just a metaphor for a place without love at best, and a straight up lie at worst.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I was raised a fundamentalist Christian, but I am no longer. Fundamentalist Christians are about to find me offensive.

There's no doubt about it. Modern Christianity is hypocrisy. Good that is not selfless is an act. The Roman Empire won out in the battle to control the direction of the following gained by the prophet Jesus by force. They burned all the Christian documents, many of which were recovered in the Nag Hammadi library in 1945.

Edit: Just want to add that hell is just a metaphor for a place without love at best, and a straight up lie at worst.

I'm glad to hear you say that. I realized you were a Christian, but I couldn't tell what particular ideas you believed. You're on the right track, then.

 

[Prophet]

Define what it means to be selfless.

Simple answer is to see all beings, yourself included, as equally valuable. It is to take the false self out of the equation and just see your True Self in the whole.

Basically, you have to love everyone.

 

[Prophet]

Are you still not seeking reward with God, if not in this life, then in the next? Are you doing it to avoid punishment, and for rewards in heaven? Even if not consciously, it still seems like that thought is still there.

No. I'm in the pursuit of happiness.

 

[Prophet]

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge." -Albert Einstein

Agreed. So let us reason.

 

[Prophet]

I'm glad to hear you say that. I realized you were a Christian, but I couldn't tell what particular ideas you believed. You're on the right track, then.

Is the non-belief in hell a distinctive trait of Left Hand Path? I only first looked up that term a few days ago and the wikipedia coverage lumps Buddhism and Hinduism with Occult and I naturally wondered about the shared traits.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Is the non-belief in hell a distinctive trait of Left Hand Path? I only first looked up that term a few days ago and the wikipedia coverage lumps Buddhism and Hinduism with Occult and I naturally wondered about the shared traits.

I can't speak for the ideas of the LHP. As far as Buddhism and Hinduism being lumped together with the occult, in the Eastern religions, the line between religion, spirituality, esotericism, philosophy, and psychology is not so distinctly defined as in the western world.

 

[Prophet]

I dont think talking about morality in completely evolutionary terms is the best way to go about understanding it.

Human beings may have arisen biologically by evolution and natural selection, but i think certain aspects of our life aren’t really reducible to this process as a sole adequate explanation.
I think that a certain flexibility within the framework of evolution and natural selection combined with the sheer complexities of certain things like neurological structure, functional development, social interaction, timelines and events and so on, will lead to the emergence of some things that aren’t easily reducible directly to the basic textbook mechanism of inheritance and natural selection.

Such that a certain action might be significant in the survival and reproductive ability of a distant ancestor, but the means by which such action was made possible was maybe due to a broader quality, that could have other applications. To put it maybe too simply, making tools for hunting is beneficial, made possible by an increased intellect, but the increased intellect is in itself able to do more than just create tools. There’s a flexibility, that allows emergence of things that don’t need serve a rigid evolutionary/natural selection framework.

Also some things that might have initially been honed and formed by a classical mechanism, might have later become less vital to successful reproduction, but remained as a remnant that’s been incorporated into a larger and more complex feature that overall is difficult to clearly connect to its causal roots. Such that at one time a small behavioural feature might have been paramount to successful reproduction, but down the line with increasing cognitive abilities it becomes less critical, and just incorporates more subtly into the whole.

There’s so much left to uncover in the human mind, the profound complexity cant be properly analysed in today’s world. The fact is we have something called morals, we also have good evidence for evolution and natural selection. Neither is wrong, its just we don’t have a comprehensive understanding of the human mind yet.

Alex

I will confess that I have great difficulty in understanding your philosophy here, and I have serious doubts as to whether it is founded on solid logic. This isn't religion and its not science, yet it seems to have the worst elements of both.

Example: Fundy Christian says "God is way too big for any of us to understand, so lets just say that God works in mysterious ways."

How much different is it when you say that the mind is so complex that we should allow flexibility? If your position is reasonable, than the fundy's is too.

I am claiming to have a comprehensive knowledge of morality. It contains one rule. Be selfless. I am also claiming to have a comprehensive knowledge of the layout of the sentient mind and the effects morality has upon it. I laid this knowledge out in my first thread on this forum entitled "On the nature of Consciousness, the source of morality".

 

[Photonic]

I will confess that I have great difficulty in understanding your philosophy here, and I have serious doubts as to whether it is founded on solid logic. This isn't religion and its not science, yet it seems to have the worst elements of both.

Example: Fundy Christian says "God is way too big for any of us to understand, so lets just say that God works in mysterious ways."

How much different is it when you say that the mind is so complex that we should allow flexibility? If your position is reasonable, than the fundy's is too.

I am claiming to have a comprehensive knowledge of morality. It contains one rule. Be selfless. I am also claiming to have a comprehensive knowledge of the layout of the sentient mind and the effects morality has upon it. I laid this knowledge out in my first thread on this forum entitled "On the nature of Consciousness, the source of morality".

Being Selfless isn't really an overall human trait to begin with, we are independent, tribal creatures. We socialize fairly well in small groups, but on a massive scale we are terrible to one another in the end.

 

[Prophet]

Being Selfless isn't really an overall human trait to begin with, we are independent, tribal creatures. We socialize fairly well in small groups, but on a massive scale we are terrible to one another in the end.

I'm not talking about human traits. I'm talking about morality.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Simple answer is to see all beings, yourself included, as equally valuable. It is to take the false self out of the equation and just see your True Self in the whole.

Basically, you have to love everyone.

When you say "see all beings...as equally valuable", are you indeed including all living things as being equal in value to yourself?

 

[CynthiaCypher]

I am so very sick and tired of people equating self-interest with being immoral andselflessmess with being moral. To me selflessmess is the most immoral thing a person can do.

Without self-interest there is no self-awareness, without a propler love of self there is no way one can truly understand or love your neighbor. In my view those who who keep on harping on selflessness or self-debasement are decieving themselves and others. Basically it's a messiah complex which is nothing more than narcissism in disguise

 

[tumbleweed41]

I am so very sick and tired of people equating self-interest with being immoral andselflessmess with being moral. To me selflessmess is the most immoral thing a person can do.

Without self-interest there is no self-awareness, without a propler love of self there is no way one can truly understand or love your neighbor. In my view those who who keep on harping on selflessness or self-debasement are decieving themselves and others. Basically it's a messiah complex which is nothing more than narcissism in disguise

Indeed. Self-Interest is the basis of social morality. What is good for society as a whole is what is in the best interest of each individual. That is not to say that each individual gets to make up his or her own rules, such as, "it is in my best interest to steal, as it will make me richer", but rather, "no individual wants their personal belongings stolen from them, therefor theft is wrong".

Morality changes and evolves as society changes and evolves. What was moral for a small band of nomads does not exactly fit into the morals of todays society.

 

[1137]

I am so very sick and tired of people equating self-interest with being immoral andselflessmess with being moral. To me selflessmess is the most immoral thing a person can do.

Without self-interest there is no self-awareness, without a propler love of self there is no way one can truly understand or love your neighbor. In my view those who who keep on harping on selflessness or self-debasement are decieving themselves and others. Basically it's a messiah complex which is nothing more than narcissism in disguise

Agreed. But if one gives up self interest they become easier to control. It is narcissism, they feel like martyrs. It also allows for self victimization and therefore pity from fellow confirmists and a greater sense of community.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Agreed. But if one gives up self interest they become easier to control. It is narcissism, they feel like martyrs. It also allows for self victimization and therefore pity from fellow confirmists and a greater sense of community.

AMEN! Thank you guys...the moment you give up on your individuality is the moment you become a slave. I hate breaking Godwin's Law but that's what Nazis did. Sacrificed self and individuality to the state, the idea of race and culture

 

[Prophet]

I am so very sick and tired of people equating self-interest with being immoral andselflessmess with being moral. To me selflessmess is the most immoral thing a person can do.

Without self-interest there is no self-awareness, without a propler love of self there is no way one can truly understand or love your neighbor. In my view those who who keep on harping on selflessness or self-debasement are decieving themselves and others. Basically it's a messiah complex which is nothing more than narcissism in disguise

Perhaps someone else's version of selflessness says that when you put considerations of other people before your own that you become worthless as a result. That's how the ego thinks. The hidden flawed logic behind it goes like this:

"I get my sense of self-worth by comparison. If I put the considerations of others before my own, my self-worth is diminished. You see, I cannot appreciate what I have... I can only enjoy what I have more than others."

In your experience of morality, do you find instances where a selfless act has diminished you, not in money or time, but in true self-worth? Are people who volunteer at homeless shelters diminished in value by their service to beings who can give nothing in return? Are doctors who volunteer at free clinics performing an immoral service to society? No, on both accounts? Is this the part where you add another rule to your list that makes your model of morality fit what we see? I sure hope to avoid that game with you. I've done it before.

You think by loving all others that I lose love for myself. You seem to think love is a zero sum game that always has winners and losers. It's not the truth. By loving all others, you gain love for yourself.

 

[work in progress]

I am so very sick and tired of people equating self-interest with being immoral andselflessmess with being moral. To me selflessmess is the most immoral thing a person can do.

Huh! Selflessness is immoral. How does that work? From the way people are acting these days, I don't think unselfishness is a problem to be concerned about.

 

[Prophet]

Agreed. But if one gives up self interest they become easier to control. It is narcissism, they feel like martyrs. It also allows for self victimization and therefore pity from fellow confirmists and a greater sense of community.

How exactly am I easy to control? You are completely wrong here, friend. It is attachment to self-interests that makes beings easy to control, not the other way around as you posit. If I am in a position of power and I know what your attachment is, be it money, fame, respect, etc., all I have to do is press your button and I instantly control you.

I would be very interested in your explanation of how you'd control anyone who was free of selfish attachment so that I may put you right.

 

[work in progress]

It is a fairly common atheist claim that evolution can create morality.

Question for debate: Can morality arise from natural selection? Futhermore, can the morality we experience be shown to be congruent with a model of morality that arises from natural selection?

I haven't read most of the posts, but off the top I'll say No, moral principles and ethics cannot be derived from natural selection. Whether there are evolutionary advantages in favouring the rudiments of our social behaviour -- like kin altruism and reciprocal altruism -- natural selection is only a blind force that establishes what traits will be favoured, and which ones won't. Evolution doesn't make value judgments, so I think it's ludicrous for people like Sam Harris to claim that we can create a scientific theory of morality, and for Stephen Pinker to claim that technological progress is our salvation.

 

[Prophet]

I disagree, and the reason I disagree is the qualifier "superior" placed in front of morality. What "superior morality," American? The land of the free and the home of the brave, where you don't get stoned for blasphemy but where you can do serious time for being stoned?

Does not compute. What does compute is evolving ethical standard.

The actual moral standard has never changed or evolved. How we have chosen to view the moral standard has changed, however.

I think superior morality can very much compute. I'm not trying to make people out to be bad or anything, but one person can have a much truer idea of how morality works than the next because a true standard exists.

I know someone who has no concept of morality as it was beaten out of him as a child. He learned quickly that the reason to not do bad things was to avoid pain. This is how hypocrites see morality. They act it out when people are watching to avoid the consequences of what they really want to do. They obey out of fear.

In this state any seemingly good actions have no actual goodness and the being who performed it has, in the words of Jesus, "received their reward in full" and there'd be no further blessing from the Father.

Giving to the Needy

1“Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer

5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9“This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us today our daily bread.
12Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.a’
14For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Fasting

16“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show men they are fasting. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to men that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.