Can morality arise from natural selection?

[1137]

You are much easier to control without having self interest though. If you are no looking out for yourself, conforming to a community, allowing people to walk on you, etc, you have little self-interest and therefore are easier to control. If you care about your freedom, spirituality, Self in general, how will someone control you?

I said if you have no self-interest you are easy to control.

1. If you have no self interest, there is no reason to care about yourself.
2. Without the self (selflessness), there is no individuality.
3. So, with no self interest there is no individuality.
4. With no individuality, there is no freedom.
5. So, with no self interest there is no freedom.
6. If you have no freedom, you are easier to or already complety controlled.
Therefore, with no self interest you are easier to control.

Lack of self-interest leads to selflessness. Accordingly, selflessness destroys self-interest, as you do not care about the Self.

Lack of self-interest contributes to selflessness, which kills individuality. If you are selfless, your self interest has been completely destroyed.

Lack of Self-interest is part of selflesaness, but not totally selfless. But, If you are totally selfless, there is already no self-interest.

Please, do point out my inconsistencies.

 

[Prophet]

Our definitions of selfless beings diverge highly. I say that a selfless being finds its value in the whole meaning all beings. Examples I would give of selfless behavior would include volunteering at a soup kitchen and helping another being at peril to yourself.

What are your examples of selfless behavior? Sitting around getting high all day and listening to music and doing nothing? I'm pretty sure that's where a total lack of interests gets you. It seems like you think selflessness makes you a hippie. I, frankly, have a hard time thinking of a more selfish way to live.

Is my issue with The Doors of Perception's model of selflessness obvious?

 

[swamplizard]

What does not arise from nature?

 

[gnostic]

It is a fairly common atheist claim that evolution can create morality.

Question for debate: Can morality arise from natural selection? Futhermore, can the morality we experience be shown to be congruent with a model of morality that arises from natural selection?

If you're speaking of purely biological mechanism (like natural selection or genetic mutation) of evolution, then I'll have to say "no". For example if you talking about speicies or subspecies of (non-human) animal then morality have no place.

On the other hand, if you're speaking of history of human development from social or anthropological level, then of course, "yes".

 

[1137]

Our definitions of selfless beings diverge highly. I say that a selfless being finds its value in the whole meaning all beings. Examples I would give of selfless behavior would include volunteering at a soup kitchen and helping another being at peril to yourself.

What are your examples of selfless behavior? Sitting around getting high all day and listening to music and doing nothing? I'm pretty sure that's where a total lack of interests gets you. It seems like you think selflessness makes you a hippie. I, frankly, have a hard time thinking of a more selfish way to live.

Is my issue with The Doors of Perception's model of selflessness obvious?

Hey don't bash hippies! Haha.
I would say selfless is having no interest in the Self. Example is one who always out helps others but doesn't take care of themselves

 

[waitasec]

here's a thought...
maybe because we have utilize the idea of morality, could that be a reason why we have sustained long enough to evolve?

 

[1137]

here's a thought...
maybe because we have utilize the idea of morality, could that be a reason why we have sustained long enough to evolve?

Before evolving how can we have understood morality?

 

[swamplizard]

Before evolving how can we have understood morality?

What if we don't understand morality?

best,
swampy

 

[1137]

What if we don't understand morality?

best,
swampy

If we don't understand it it cannot be our creation. Therefore it logically must be natural. Maybe moral laws are on the same level with the laws of physics.

 

[swamplizard]

If we don't understand it it cannot be our creation. Therefore it logically must be natural. Maybe moral laws are on the same level with the laws of physics.

If such laws exist, are they universal or individualistic?

best,
swampy

 

[1137]

If such laws exist, are they universal or individualistic?

best,
swampy

If they exist they would be universal I'd think. Cold-blooded murder would always be immoral if it is naturally immoral. For example, people who say morality is relative have to explain the holocaust. If morals are absolute natural laws, it wouldnt matter if a person thought what they are doing is bad or not. Absolute truths are not affected by how one feels about them.

 

[swamplizard]

If they exist they would be universal I'd think. Cold-blooded murder would always be immoral if it is naturally immoral. For example, people who say morality is relative have to explain the holocaust. If morals are absolute natural laws, it wouldnt matter if a person thought what they are doing is bad or not. Absolute truths are not affected by how one feels about them.

Would it be immoral to tell the truth when you think it is a lie?

best,
swampy

 

[1137]

Would it be immoral to tell the truth when you think it is a lie?

best,
swampy

It wouldn't be the truth if it is a lie. Here is my theory:

Free will is the most important thing in our lives. Interfering with someones FW is not acceptable if they are not causing harm. So, things that do so are immoral. Also, if something is not causing harm it cannott be immoral. Let me give some examples:

Homksexuality is not immoral, as it is two people's free will and harms none.

Rape is immoral, as it causes harm amd takes away a persons free will.

Euthanasia / suicide is not immoral, as it is a persons choice. Self harm cannot be immoral, as it is a persons choice and they only hurt themselves.

Cold blooded murder is immoral: it takes away ones fw and harms.

However, jailing a murdered or rapist is not immoral. If one treats another immorally, they lose the right to their moral treatment.

 

[swamplizard]

It wouldn't be the truth if it is a lie. Here is my theory:

Free will is the most important thing in our lives. Interfering with someones FW is not acceptable if they are not causing harm. So, things that do so are immoral. Also, if something is not causing harm it cannott be immoral. Let me give some examples:

Homksexuality is not immoral, as it is two people's free will and harms none.

Rape is immoral, as it causes harm amd takes away a persons free will.

Euthanasia / suicide is not immoral, as it is a persons choice. Self harm cannot be immoral, as it is a persons choice and they only hurt themselves.

Cold blooded murder is immoral: it takes away ones fw and harms.

However, jailing a murdered or rapist is not immoral. If one treats another immorally, they lose the right to their moral treatment.

The social contract.

best,
swampy

 

[Prophet]

Are you folks saying that morality is a result of intelligence? I know of a not-so-rare insect called a Bee which basically kamikazes if it perceives its family is in danger.

 

[swamplizard]

Are you folks saying that morality is a result of intelligence? I know of a not-so-rare insect called a Bee which basically kamikazes if it perceives its family is in danger.

I'm not sure we can understand morality, much less determine its essence. Driver ants sacrifice themselves for the colony.

best regards,
swampy

 

[1137]

Are you folks saying that morality is a result of intelligence? I know of a not-so-rare insect called a Bee which basically kamikazes if it perceives its family is in danger.

I can't speak for everyone, but I am not saying that. I am saying morality is natural and absolute. Perhaps only through intelligence can we understand it and choose not to follow it

I'm not sure we can understand morality, much less determine its essence. Driver ants sacrifice themselves for the colony.

best regards,
swampy

This, if true, means morality cannot be man made.

 

[Prophet]

The totality of the moral law tells us to be selfless. Like my bee and your driver ant. Yes, intelligence has helped me to fully understand this moral law, but it weighs down on all beings equally.

 

[Songbird]

I can't speak for everyone, but I am not saying that. I am saying morality is natural and absolute. Perhaps only through intelligence can we understand it and choose not to follow it

It seems like morality can only be absolute if conditions are identical for everyone. But moral guidelines intersect specific contexts, which determine available choices and morality qualifiers. The qualifiers vary by society.

 

[Songbird]

The totality of the moral law tells us to be selfless. Like my bee and your driver ant. Yes, intelligence has helped me to fully understand this moral law, but it weighs down on all beings equally.

You mean all beings sense a moral law of being selfless? If I understood that correctly, I'd say the opposite would more often be accurate. Survival n all.