Can morality arise from natural selection?

[Prophet]

We'll use an example from grammar. In a sentence, there's always: subject-verb-object. Now apply this to morality. The subject, whether it be you, me, or whoever, the verb, which is the action done, and the main body of the morality, and the subject, which, in the case of morality, is almost always another person. If you act in an immoral way toward another person, the tribe/community is likely to reprimand you. Do it enough, and you get kicked out of the tribe, thereby signing your death warrant. Now, what are some immoral actions, generally considered? Things like envy, jealousy, battery, theft, murder, adultery. Instead of prescribing an equal moral to each one, they can all be summed up as: love. Generally, selfless love. So no, sacrificial love, as you put it, does not have to come from a higher source, but comes from evolution.

Measure morality with respect to action and you will confuse. Instead, measure morality with respect to motive. Action is amoral.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Measure morality with respect to action and you will confuse. Instead, measure morality with respect to motive. Action is amoral.

I agree. I was just using the sentence structure to make a point. As the Buddha said: "Monks, karma, I say, is intention." I agree that it's the intention, or motive, behind the action that makes it moral or immoral.

 

[Prophet]

Oh, by the way, I don't know why people are mentioning the ability of animals to love as if this is contradictory to my model. My favorite passage from the Bible is Isaiah 11:6-9.

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearlinga together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Oh, by the way, I don't know why people are mentioning the ability of animals to love as if this is contradictory to my model. My favorite passage from the Bible is Isaiah 11:6-9.

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearlinga together;
and a little child will lead them.
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper’s nest.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

If I'm not mistaken, Thomas Paine said this was one of his favorite passages from the Bible in his Age of Reason (and I might very well be wrong, it's been years since I've read it).

 

[Prophet]

I agree. I was just using the sentence structure to make a point. As the Buddha said: "Monks, karma, I say, is intention." I agree that it's the intention, or motive, behind the action that makes it moral or immoral.

If your motive in not performing evil is not getting kicked out of some tribe, you are already guilty of evil because your motives are still selfish. Don't you understand the action is irrelevant?

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

If your motive in not performing evil is not getting kicked out of some tribe, you are already guilty of evil because your motives are still selfish. Don't you understand the action is irrelevant?

That raises a question: is there any action that can truly be said to be completely unselfish in some respect? Does the saying "A good deed is it's own reward" hold any water?

 

[Prophet]

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
-Jesus Christ

If the only thing keeping you from doing evil is fear of the consequences, you are already evil.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
-Jesus Christ

If the only thing keeping you from doing evil is fear of the consequences, you are already evil.

Since you've quoted the Bible, let me ask you this: is the only reason why a Christian follows god to stay out of hell? That's been the main argument I've seen here, and heard preached for years as a Christian, to actually follow God. It seems to me that there is a little bit of selfishness, no matter how minute, in each action, no matter how grand and holy.

 

[tumbleweed41]

For the record, there is only one moral rule in my whole model of morality: Be selfless.

I would be happy to challenge anyone to give an alternate set of morality rules and compare them to my one rule.

We will see if I can't force you folks to add a few more rules.

Define what it means to be selfless.

 

[tumbleweed41]

If the only thing keeping you from doing evil is fear of the consequences, you are already evil.

Amen.

And what of doing good in hopes of reward?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Morality arises out an awareness and analysis of the behaviors we've developed evolutionarily and socially.

 

[Alex_G]

It is a fairly common atheist claim that evolution can create morality.

Question for debate: Can morality arise from natural selection? Futhermore, can the morality we experience be shown to be congruent with a model of morality that arises from natural selection?

I dont think talking about morality in completely evolutionary terms is the best way to go about understanding it.

Human beings may have arisen biologically by evolution and natural selection, but i think certain aspects of our life aren’t really reducible to this process as a sole adequate explanation.
I think that a certain flexibility within the framework of evolution and natural selection combined with the sheer complexities of certain things like neurological structure, functional development, social interaction, timelines and events and so on, will lead to the emergence of some things that aren’t easily reducible directly to the basic textbook mechanism of inheritance and natural selection.

Such that a certain action might be significant in the survival and reproductive ability of a distant ancestor, but the means by which such action was made possible was maybe due to a broader quality, that could have other applications. To put it maybe too simply, making tools for hunting is beneficial, made possible by an increased intellect, but the increased intellect is in itself able to do more than just create tools. There’s a flexibility, that allows emergence of things that don’t need serve a rigid evolutionary/natural selection framework.

Also some things that might have initially been honed and formed by a classical mechanism, might have later become less vital to successful reproduction, but remained as a remnant that’s been incorporated into a larger and more complex feature that overall is difficult to clearly connect to its causal roots. Such that at one time a small behavioural feature might have been paramount to successful reproduction, but down the line with increasing cognitive abilities it becomes less critical, and just incorporates more subtly into the whole.

There’s so much left to uncover in the human mind, the profound complexity cant be properly analysed in today’s world. The fact is we have something called morals, we also have good evidence for evolution and natural selection. Neither is wrong, its just we don’t have a comprehensive understanding of the human mind yet.

Alex

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

Amen.

And what of doing good in hopes of reward?

Selfishness, which is evil, according to this Prophet.

I don't agree with some of the terms he uses, but his methodology for deriving those terms doesn't seem to differ much from mine.

 

[Father Heathen]

Morality is complex, and although elements of it are certainly are "hardwired" through genetics and instinct, a lot of it comes from experience and observation, and through an understanding of cause and respect. Superior morality rises from reason and compassion, the latter of which is innate in psychologically healthy humans. We're also naturally social animals, and cooperation is both of rational self-interest and mutual benefit. As for self-sacrifice, many social animals will do things that benefit the herd/pack/hive, etc. as a whole more so than it benefits the individual animal.
If morality simply arose from evolution alone, we wouldn't have the multiple models of morality that we do, such as the myriad of religions and philosophies that are radically different and even conflict with one another.

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

Morality is complex, and although elements of it are certainly are "hardwired" through genetics and instinct, a lot of it comes from experience and observation, and through an understanding of cause and respect. Superior morality rises from reason and compassion, the latter of which is innate in psychologically healthy humans. We're also naturally social animals, and cooperation is both of rational self-interest and mutual benefit. As for self-sacrifice, many social animals will do things that benefit the herd/pack/hive, etc. as a whole more so than it benefits the individual animal.
If morality simply arose from evolution alone, we wouldn't have the multiple models of morality that we do, such as the myriad of religions and philosophies that are radically different and even conflict with one another.

I disagree, and the reason I disagree is the qualifier "superior" placed in front of morality. What "superior morality," American? The land of the free and the home of the brave, where you don't get stoned for blasphemy but where you can do serious time for being stoned?

Does not compute. What does compute is evolving ethical standard.

 

[Father Heathen]

I disagree, and the reason I disagree is the qualifier "superior" placed in front of morality. What "superior morality," American? The land of the free and the home of the brave, where you don't get stoned for blasphemy but where you can do serious time for being stoned?

Does not compute. What does compute is evolving ethical standard.

What are you babbling about? Is morality that's based on reason and compassion not superior to morality that's based on superstition or other random, arbitrary things? I never implied that morality doesn't develop or evolve. I don't understand why you brought up America either, unless you're confusing culture with morality. As for American laws, many of them are irrational and unjust, but I don't understand how that's relevant to my post.

 

[1137]

It is a fairly common atheist claim that evolution can create morality.

Question for debate: Can morality arise from natural selection? Futhermore, can the morality we experience be shown to be congruent with a model of morality that arises from natural selection?

Morality itself is natural, same as evolution. One does not come out of the other, they exist together.

 

[Prophet]

That raises a question: is there any action that can truly be said to be completely unselfish in some respect? Does the saying "A good deed is it's own reward" hold any water?

Good question,

In addressing it I'll give you two fairly common philosophies on how to live life.

Selfish and in attachment: When I go to work, I work for money. I am not given my paycheck; I take it. It's mine. It's owed me. I unable to give sincere thanks to my employer; I did my job, right? When I do nice things for others, I am keeping track of what I did and who I did it for because it's owed me. If I find that my nice deeds have not bought what I thought it would, be it nice deeds in return, loyalty, or even just positive feelings about me, I will feel cheated.

Selfless: When I go to work, I work for God, that thing above all beings that tells us we need to be selfless. Whatever the actions of my results, I am unattached. I can only control what I do, and what I do I do my best for all. Not just the beings whose feelings towards me I care to affect, but the beings who could give nothing in return that I value. Fear is foreign to me, because fear is attachment in the form of anxiety regarding things beyond your control in the present. Tomorrow will surely worry about itself.

The King will reply, "Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me." -Jesus Christ

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

Selfless: When I go to work, I work for God, that thing above all beings that tells us we need to be selfless. Whatever the actions of my results, I am unattached. I can only control what I do, and what I do I do my best for all. Not just the beings whose feelings towards me I care to affect, but the beings who could give nothing in return that I value. Fear is foreign to me, because fear is attachment in the form of anxiety regarding things beyond your control in the present. Tomorrow will surely worry about itself.

Are you still not seeking reward with God, if not in this life, then in the next? Are you doing it to avoid punishment, and for rewards in heaven? Even if not consciously, it still seems like that thought is still there.

 

[Father Heathen]

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed. The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity does not lie through the fear of life, and the fear of death, and blind faith, but through striving after rational knowledge." -Albert Einstein