Can non-conscious forces create conscious beings?

[Kilgore Trout]

I gave up receiving any of George-ananda's claimed evidence long long ago.

Pfft - what are you talking about? He links to all sorts of whackos and charlatans which is supposed to constitute "evidence." If you're not willing to believe the "evidence" provided by liars, scammers, idiots, and just plain nutjobs, then you must be one of those "hardcore skeptics" who are stuck to their perspective of facts, knowledge, reason, and truth.

 

[Skwim]

It would not be the force that would be conscious, but rather the particles that drive those forces.

The particles? What are the "particles" of natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, and random mutation that you're referring to? Never heard of such things.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

The particles? What are the "particles" of natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, and random mutation that you're referring to? Never heard of such things.

Evolutrons. Duh.

 

[Skwim]

Evolutrons. Duh.

Silly me. I completely forgot about evolutrons: the spearmint evolutron, raspberry evolutron, and the licorice evolutron.

 

[McBell]

Silly me. I completely forgot about evolutrons: the spearmint evolutron, raspberry evolutron, and the licorice evolutron.

Gotta get 'em all!

 

[George-ananda]

Pfft - what are you talking about? He links to all sorts of whackos and charlatans which is supposed to constitute "evidence." If you're not willing to believe the "evidence" provided by liars, scammers, idiots, and just plain nutjobs, then you must be one of those "hardcore skeptics" who are stuck to their perspective of facts, knowledge, reason, and truth.

I've been waiting to find out which of those negative terms above are applicable to, for example, Dr. Ian Stevenson. (something more than cherry-picking negatives from his professional enemies). You wouldn't want us to write you off as a 'hardcore skeptic' and a 'nutjob' (to use your language).

 

[1137]

What empirical support do we have to say that evolution happens without an outside point of conciousness? What exactly causes evolution for that matter?

This has already been addressed.

And that's fine, but I'm talking about the operational forces of evolution; those that propel it. Like evolution's four fundamental forces.

1) Natural selection

2) Genetic drift

3) Gene flow

4) Random mutations
​

Not some outside agent that some feel is necessary to set it in motion.




Ever hear of a force that is conscious? If not, then why assume the forces of evolution might be? If so, please enlighten us.

 

[Me Myself]

This is something I have a hard time understanding or believing. If there is no God or conscious force that created us, then how could self aware conscious beings like ourselves have come into existence?

Can a non conscious force create conscious beings?

Well, this are my thoughts about it:

1- We technically dont know if there exists anything that is "non conscious"

2- assuming there is and we could know (which we cant know) we currently do not know how life came up, but we would have no reason to believe consciousness coming from unconscious forces is impossible.

So in summary, the "how" is currently unknown. (provided there is anything without consciousness anyways.

 

[1137]

To Doors and the rest of the usual skeptic crow cawing friends,

(here we go again, i'm sure this will get somewhere )

Materialism cannot explain a lot of things. The latest example was the thread just concluded on Ian Stevenson and memories suggestive of reincarnation. The skeptics ran when I seriously pressed them.

I will accept the argument that it doesn't 'PROVE' reincarnation. I do not accept the argument that materialism can explain the phenomena. You can nit-pick every possible loose thread BUT to say the entire phenomena has a materialist explanation is a desperate sounding lie from the skeptical zealots. There is no material explanation that doesn't make one go when the explanation is pressed.

If the material explanations are satisfying to you, then you can keep hiding from a universe too complex in its reality for any of us to get our heads around. I prefer to accept the facts, it is too much for our minds to grasp but I still want to know as much as I can understand. Simplifying the universe with materialism is a powerful magnet for the reductionist oriented thinker (and doing the 'ostrich' to anything that doesn't fit).

Actually evolution and such is FAR more complex than an outside consciousness with unlimited power. But don't give yourself a headache.

 

[George-ananda]

Actually evolution and such is FAR more complex than an outside consciousness with unlimited power. But don't give yourself a headache.

Actually: is evolution far more complex than realms we know almost nothing about? I'm talking more than 'an outside consciousness with unlimited power'.

No headache here. my curiosity wants to know the little I can know.

 

[1137]

Actually: is evolution far more complex than realms we know almost nothing about? I'm talking more than 'an outside consciousness with unlimited power'.

No headache here. my curiosity wants to know the little I can know.

Then stop rejecting what's known

 

[Secret Chief]

Conscious beings return to non-conscious forces, so yeah, why not.

 

[George-ananda]

Then stop rejecting what's known

What about the 'known' do I reject?

 

[Me Myself]

Again, what evidence do we have that non conscious forces exist?

Isn`t unconsciousness an assumption?

 

[1137]

What about the 'known' do I reject?

Physical explanations of things like evolution, NDEs, OBEs, etc.

 

[George-ananda]

Physical explanations of things like evolution, NDEs, OBEs, etc.

For both are sake, let's nip that in the bud.

Our avatars are now both already blue in the face...LOL

 

[Alceste]

What empirical support do we have to say that evolution happens without an outside point of conciousness? What exactly causes evolution for that matter?

Chemistry, basically.

 

[1137]

For both are sake, let's nip that in the bud.

Our avatars are now both already blue in the face...LOL

Haha fair enough.

 

[Me Myself]

Chemistry, basically.

chemestry has provided scientific evidence that unconscious forces exist? o.o

 

[danieldemol]

I think the existence of the material aspects of conciousness (eg brain cells & electrical impulses) can be explained by evolution and chemical reactions.