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Can Randomness and Chance cause the Evolution of life?

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Can Randomness and Chance cause the natural evolution of life?

For that matter, can randomness and chance cause anything?

This common banner of Creationists promoting 'Intelligent Design' and claiming natural evolution cannot happen because of randomness and chance in natural events. Is the variation in the outcomes of cause and effects truly random?

What is the relationship between cause and effect and the variation in the outcomes in nature. Can we have the complexity of life we have today evolve from simplicity?

What are the known causes of life and evolution?

Does random and chance occur in nature? If so how?

First reference:

The chaos theory of evolution By Keith Bennett

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Forget finding the laws of evolution. The history of life is just one damn thing after another

That is not to say that evolution is random – far from it. But the neat concept of adaptation to the environment driven by natural selection, as envisaged by Darwin in On the Origin of Species and now a central feature of the theory of evolution, is too simplistic. Instead, evolution is chaotic.

Adaptationism certainly appears to hold true in microevolution – small-scale evolutionary change within species, such as changes in beak shape in Galapagos finches in response to available food sources.

However, there is still huge debate about the role of natural selection and adaptation in “macroevolution” – big evolutionary events such as changes in biodiversity over time, evolutionary radiations and, of course, the origin of species. Are these the cumulative outcome of the same processes that drive microevolution, or does macroevolution have its own distinct processes and patterns?
. . .
Palaeoecologists like me are now bringing a new perspective to the problem. If macroevolution really is an extrapolation of natural selection and adaptation, we would expect to see environmental change driving evolutionary change. Major climatic events such as ice ages ought to leave their imprint on life as species adapt to the new conditions. Is that what actually happens?

Our understanding of global environmental change is vastly more detailed than it was in Lyell and Darwin’s time. James Zachos at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and colleagues, have shown that the Earth has been on a long-term cooling trend for the past 65 million years (Science, vol 292, p 686). Superimposed upon this are oscillations in climate every 20,000, 40,000 and 100,000 years caused by wobbles in the Earth’s orbit.

Over the past 2 million years – the Quaternary period – these oscillations have increased in amplitude and global climate has lurched between periods of glaciation and warmer interglacials. The big question is, how did life respond to these climatic changes? In principle, three types of evolutionary response are possible: stasis, extinction, or evolutionary change. What do we actually see?

To answer that question we look to the fossil record. We now have good data covering the past 2 million years and excellent data on the past 20,000 years. We can also probe evolutionary history with the help of both modern and ancient DNA.

The highly detailed record of the past 20,000 years comes from analyses of fossilised tree pollen from lake and peat sediments. Tree pollen is generally recognisable to the level of genus, sometimes even species, and the sediments in which it is found can easily be radiocarbon dated.
. . .
Research on animals has come to similarly unexpected conclusions, albeit based on sparser fossil records. For example, palaeontologist Russell Graham at Illinois State Museum has looked at North American mammals and palaeontologist Russell Coope at the University of Birmingham in the UK has examined insects (Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics, vol 10, p 247). Both studies show that most species remain unchanged for hundreds of thousands of years, perhaps longer, and across several ice ages. Species undergo major changes in distribution and abundance, but show no evolution of morphological characteristics despite major environmental changes.

That is not to say that major evolutionary change such as speciation doesn’t happen. But recent “molecular clock” research suggests the link between speciation and environmental change is weak at best.

Die hard
Molecular clock approaches allow us to estimate when two closely related modern species split from a common ancestor by comparing their DNA. Most of this work has been carried out in birds, and shows that new species appear more or less continuously, regardless of the dramatic climatic oscillations of the Quaternary or the longer term cooling that preceded it (Trends in Ecology and Evolution, vol 20, p 57).

What of extinction? Of course, species have gone extinct during the past 20,000 years. However, almost all examples involve some degree of human activity, either directly (think dodos) or indirectly (large mammals at the end of the last ice age, 12,000 years ago).
. . .
If environmental changes as substantial as continent-wide glaciations do not force evolutionary change, then what does? It is hard to see how adaptation by natural selection during lesser changes might then accumulate and lead to macroevolution.

I suggest that the true source of macroevolutionary change lies in the non-linear, or chaotic, dynamics of the relationship between genotype and phenotype – the actual organism and all its traits. The relationship is non-linear because phenotype, or set of observable characteristics, is determined by a complex interplay between an organism’s genes – tens of thousands of them, all influencing one another’s behaviour – and its environment.

Not only is the relationship non-linear, it also changes all the time. Mutations occur continually, without external influence, and can be passed on to the next generation. A change of a single base of an organism’s DNA might have no consequence, because that section of DNA still codes for the same amino acid. Alternatively, it might cause a significant change in the offspring’s physiology or morphology, or it might even be fatal. In other words, a single small change can have far-reaching and unpredictable effects – the hallmark of a non-linear system.

Iterating these unpredictable changes over hundreds or thousands of generations will inevitably lead to evolutionary changes in addition to any that come about by the preferential survival of certain phenotypes. It follows that macroevolution may, over the longer-term, be driven largely by internally generated genetic change, not adaptation to a changing environment.

The evolution of life has many characteristics that are typical of non-linear systems. First, it is deterministic: changes in one part of the system, such as the mutation of a DNA base, directly cause other changes. However, the change is unpredictable. Just like the weather, changes are inexorable but can only be followed with the benefit of hindsight.

Second, behaviour of the system is sensitive to initial conditions. We see this in responses to glaciations in the Quaternary period. The exact circumstances of the beginning of each interglacial determine the development of the whole period, leading to unpredictable differences between interglacials (Quaternary Science Reviews, vol 14, p 967).

Third, the history of life is fractal. Take away the labelling from any portion of the tree of life and we cannot tell at which scale we are looking (see diagram). This self-similarity also indicates that evolutionary change is a process of continual splitting of the branches of the tree.

Fourth, we cannot rewind, as Stephen Jay Gould argued in Wonderful Life. Were we to turn the evolutionary clock back to any point in the past, and let it run again, the outcome would be different. As in weather systems, the initial conditions can never be specified to sufficient precision to prevent divergence of subsequent trajectories.

Life on Earth is always unique, changing, and unpredictable. Even if certain patterns can be dimly discerned, our ability to do so diminishes with time, exactly as for the weather. Consider any moment of the geological record of life on Earth: to what extent were the changes of the next 10 or 100 million years predictable at that time? With the benefit of hindsight, we might be able to understand what happened, and construct a plausible narrative for those events, but we have no foresight.

This view of life leads to certain consequences. Macroevolution is not the simple accumulation of microevolutionary changes but has its own processes and patterns. There can be no “laws” of evolution. We may be able to reconstruct the sequence of events leading to the evolution of any given species or group after the fact, but we will not be able to generalise from these to other sequences of events. From a practical point of view, this means we will be unable to predict how species will respond to projected climate changes over next century.
. . .
We still have much to learn about how life evolved but we will not develop a full appreciation until we accept the complexity of the system."
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Too tired to really pay attention right now, but I did happen to notice this.


Fourth, we cannot rewind, as Stephen Jay Gould argued in Wonderful Life. Were we to turn the evolutionary clock back to any point in the past, and let it run again, the outcome would be different. As in weather systems, the initial conditions can never be specified to sufficient precision to prevent divergence of subsequent trajectories.
If I understand what you're saying, in the rewinding we aren't assembling the "any point" ourselves, but merely returning to the exact state everything was at that "point in the past." If this is the case, then all the initial conditions would be exactly as they were. Hence, everything that follows would be exactly the same as the first time around.

.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Too tired to really pay attention right now, but I did happen to notice this.



If I understand what you're saying, in the rewinding we aren't assembling the "any point" ourselves, but merely returning to the exact state everything was at that "point in the past." If this is the case, then all the initial conditions would be exactly as they were. Hence, everything that follows would be exactly the same as the first time around.

.

What prevents this is the natural variation due to non-linear relationships of fractal math. The more variables the greater the variation of the possible outcomes. This is why all tiger strips look like tiger strips, but no two striped tigers will be the same. From any point of an initial condition we can make a series of variable outcomes of weather predictions over time, but because of the fractal nature when they run the computer models for weather from any given starting point again and again they are never the same.
 
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David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
"Does random and chance occur in nature? If so how?"

Is there any aspect beyond scientific measurement in nature, is the actual question. yes.

In environmental studies Random Chance has zero to do with it. Random Chance seems more of a particular domain, in particular branches of science, in limited kinds of ways. In environmental studies everything is contextualized environmentally. One wouldn't say, "the salmon by random chance found there way up stream". or "A tree is growing there by random chance." So from an environmental studies perspective it really is an irrelevant concept scientifically speaking. That would lead one to conclude intelligent design advocates have spent zero time in nature, and thus have zero understanding of the bible even. More like gawking tourists at the zoo I would imagine.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Can Randomness and Chance cause the Evolution of life?

As a believer in evolution, I also believe there is more than just randomness and chance going on. I believe there is also intelligence at work in it all.

I believe the complexity of DNA strongly suggests intelligence.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Can Randomness and Chance cause the Evolution of life?

As a believer in evolution, I also believe there is more than just randomness and chance going on. I believe there is also intelligence at work in it all.

First, there is no evidence that randomness and chance occur in nature, nor that they cause anything. Second, evolution is based on more than 'belief.'

I believe the complexity of DNA strongly suggests intelligence.

Believe? Suggests 'Intelligence?' That is a theist assumption without a shred of evidence.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
What prevents this is the natural variation due to non-linear relationships of fractal math. The more variables the greater the variation of the possible outcomes. This is why all tiger strips look like tiger strips, but no two striped tigers will be the same. From any point of an initial condition we can make a series of variable outcomes of weather predictions over time, but because of the fractal nature when they run the computer models for weather from any given starting point again and again they are never the same.

So randomness is real?

I'm assuming that any starting conditions has a range of possible outcomes. Maybe a very narrow range but given enough time notable differences would appear.

Obviously two parents could have very different offsprings.

If it were possible to duplicate the same birthing circumstances exactly. There would still be differences in the offspring from the first iteration and the offspring from the second iteration?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
First, there is no evidence that randomness and chance occur in nature, nor that they cause anything.
What? Randomness and chance don't occur in nature??
Second, evolution is based on more than 'belief.'
It is a belief based on evidence, right?

Right, unless you have proof there was or wasn't intelligence involved, that is all anyone has..
Suggests 'Intelligence?' That is a theist assumption without a shred of evidence.
The mindboggling complexity of DNA and the life processes themselves are evidence (not proof) in my book.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
What prevents this is the natural variation due to non-linear relationships of fractal math. The more variables the greater the variation of the possible outcomes. This is why all tiger strips look like tiger strips, but no two striped tigers will be the same. From any point of an initial condition we can make a series of variable outcomes of weather predictions over time, but because of the fractal nature when they run the computer models for weather from any given starting point again and again they are never the same.
Well, when I say "exactly" I mean: precisely, entirely, absolutely. There is not anything different. So, if everything is e x a c t l y the same, how could there be any variable that's different than what it was?

.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Well, when I say "exactly" I mean: precisely, entirely, absolutely. There is not anything different. So, if everything is e x a c t l y the same, how could there be any variable that's different than what it was?

.

Are you familiar with non-linear fractal math? Only if the equation is linear will yo get the same answer every time over time.

If you are familiar with non-linear math where there are a number of variables, every time you run the equation repeatedly over time you will get a different answer every time. The more variables the more the answers will vary. The longer one runs fractal programs the more different the results are. The simple lesson of this is provided graphically and beautifully. All you have to do is download the fractal software and play.

I believe the weather forecasting is the most common examples where terribly complicated software modeling tries to deal with the many variables. There are about four or five computer models in operation, and none give the same answer, because of the many variables and how the program deals with them. The European computer model software at present gives the best results,
 
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Skwim

Veteran Member
Are you familiar with non-linear fractal math?
Unfortunately not.

If you are familiar with non-linear math where there are a number of variables, every time you run the equation you will get a different answer over time. The more variables the more the answers will vary. The simple lesson of this is provided graphically and beautifully. All you have to do is download the fractal software and play.

So, why does one get a different result? To do so there has to be some kid of interfering determinant that wasn't in the first in the first run. Where does this come from? To merely say it's a variable doesn't explain anything. If in the second run this variable was different than in the first run, one has to answer the question of why it's different. There has to be some kind of causal agency that changes it. If the agency is time dependent---say the variable cycles through different stages---then unless one runs the experiment a second time when the variable is at exactly the same stage as in the first run, the experiment isn't the same. It's a different experiment. That one may be ignorant of how or why the variable is different doesn't change a thing. The two experiments were simply not the same.

So, in non-linear math where there are a number of variables, just what are they and why do they keep differing? What is the cause of their nature?

.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Given enough time, probability can do anything.

Actually no, probability cannot do anything. Probability is simply descriptive of the likelyhood something will occur given certain 'conditions' estimated using a range of values from zero, will not happen, to one if it is certain. Probabulity is always limited by given set of 'conditions.'
 
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taykair

Active Member
Actually no, probability cannot do anything. Probability is simply the likelyhood something will occur given certain 'conditions' estimated using a range of values from zero, will not happen, to one if it is certain. Probabulity is always limited by given set of 'conditions.'

Actually, yes. Probability is more than we think it is, but I won't expand upon, or debate, the point.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Unfortunately not.

My recommendation is to get a layman level primer like Chaos by James Gleick.

The basic principles of fractal math are covered in high school math, but most did not pay attention. If you remember a graphed linear equation is a straight line, and non-linear equations have a curved line. If you run a non-linear with many variables over time you will get a fractal variation in the pattern that will not repeat in the same pattern.

Also when there are many variables adding even on minor variable can have a significant effect sometimes called the 'butterfly effect.'
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Actually, yes. Probability is more than we think it is, but I won't expand upon, or debate, the point.

More than we think it is?!?!!? You need to present something more of substance to justify this line of reasoning. More?

From the perspective of the descriptive utilitarian view of math, probability is simply a tool to measure the likelyhood of the out come of an event under a given set of circumstances.

There is a problem among layman, like Christian apologists, to misuse and misrepresent probability to justify their agenda, along with a heavy dose of mythical randomness and chance.
 
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Audie

Veteran Member
What? Randomness and chance don't occur in nature??It is a belief based on evidence, right?

Right, unless you have proof there was or wasn't intelligence involved, that is all anyone has..
The mindboggling complexity of DNA and the life processes themselves are evidence (not proof) in my book.

I think it is well not to play equivocation games with the word "belief". Understanding and accepting the reality of auto mechanics-or, say, ToE-is not "a belief".
 
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