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Can Randomness and Chance cause the Evolution of life?

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Can Randomness and Chance cause the Evolution of life?

As a believer in evolution, I also believe there is more than just randomness and chance going on. I believe there is also intelligence at work in it all.

I believe the complexity of DNA strongly suggests intelligence.

Yes, and we use random variation as a design feature all the time, it's only logical, but it's not a comprehensive design mechanism. We see the exact same traits in life, variation is strictly limited to provide functional variaties, they have never been observed to create entirely new systems, they logically, mathematically cannot
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes, and we use random variation as a design feature all the time, it's only logical, but it's not a comprehensive design mechanism. We see the exact same traits in life, variation is strictly limited to provide functional variaties, they have never been observed to create entirely new systems, they logically, mathematically cannot
You do realize that you just used a strawman argument, don't you?
 

james bond

Well-Known Member
The chaos theory of evolution has been replaced by epigenetic inheritance since 2005. Epigenetic inheritance explains using the genome table and shows that Darwin was wrong about mutation causing large genetic changes and possibly some environment causing changes by natural selection. Jean-Baptiste Lamarck was one of the first to study changes caused by genetic factors.

"Darwin was not the first naturalist to propose that species changed over time into new species—that life, as we would say now, evolves. In the eighteenth century, Buffon and other naturalists began to introduce the idea that life might not have been fixed since creation. By the end of the 1700s, paleontologists had swelled the fossil collections of Europe, offering a picture of the past at odds with an unchanging natural world. And in 1801, a French naturalist named Jean Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, Chevalier de Lamarck took a great conceptual step and proposed a full-blown theory of evolution.

Lamarck started his scientific career as a botanist, but in 1793 he became one of the founding professors of the Musee National d'Histoire Naturelle as an expert on invertebrates. His work on classifying worms, spiders, molluscs, and other boneless creatures was far ahead of his time.

Change through use and disuse
Lamarck was struck by the similarities of many of the animals he studied, and was impressed too by the burgeoning fossil record. It led him to argue that life was not fixed. When environments changed, organisms had to change their behavior to survive. If they began to use an organ more than they had in the past, it would increase in its lifetime. If a giraffe stretched its neck for leaves, for example, a "nervous fluid" would flow into its neck and make it longer. Its offspring would inherit the longer neck, and continued stretching would make it longer still over several generations. Meanwhile organs that organisms stopped using would shrink.

dot_clear.gif
giraffenecks.jpg

Lamarck believed that the long necks of giraffes evolved as generations of giraffes reached for ever higher leaves.

Organisms driven to greater complexity
This sort of evolution, for which Lamarck is most famous today, was only one of two mechanisms he proposed. As organisms adapted to their surroundings, nature also drove them inexorably upward from simple forms to increasingly complex ones. Like Buffon, Lamarck believed that life had begun through spontaneous generation. But he claimed that new primitive life forms sprang up throughout the history of life; today's microbes were simply "the new kids on the block."

Early Concepts of Evolution: Jean Baptiste Lamarck

Lamarck's hypothesis of changes due to heredity were largely discarded by Darwin's ToE, but today it has come back due to epigenetics and the study of inheritance. With epigentic inheritance, one doesn't need the millions of years to affect changes like Darwin's hypothesis does. It's based on epigenetics or software instructions which turn on or off switches in one's cells for a particular trait. What's interesting is that these switches or instructions can be passed on one's children and grandchildren.

 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The chaos theory of evolution has been replaced by epigenetic inheritance since 2005. Epigenetic inheritance explains using the genome table and shows that Darwin was wrong about mutation causing large genetic changes and possibly some environment causing changes by natural selection. Jean-Baptiste Lamarck was one of the first to study changes caused by genetic factors.

"Darwin was not the first naturalist to propose that species changed over time into new species—that life, as we would say now, evolves. In the eighteenth century, Buffon and other naturalists began to introduce the idea that life might not have been fixed since creation. By the end of the 1700s, paleontologists had swelled the fossil collections of Europe, offering a picture of the past at odds with an unchanging natural world. And in 1801, a French naturalist named Jean Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, Chevalier de Lamarck took a great conceptual step and proposed a full-blown theory of evolution.

Lamarck started his scientific career as a botanist, but in 1793 he became one of the founding professors of the Musee National d'Histoire Naturelle as an expert on invertebrates. His work on classifying worms, spiders, molluscs, and other boneless creatures was far ahead of his time.

Change through use and disuse
Lamarck was struck by the similarities of many of the animals he studied, and was impressed too by the burgeoning fossil record. It led him to argue that life was not fixed. When environments changed, organisms had to change their behavior to survive. If they began to use an organ more than they had in the past, it would increase in its lifetime. If a giraffe stretched its neck for leaves, for example, a "nervous fluid" would flow into its neck and make it longer. Its offspring would inherit the longer neck, and continued stretching would make it longer still over several generations. Meanwhile organs that organisms stopped using would shrink.

dot_clear.gif
giraffenecks.jpg

Lamarck believed that the long necks of giraffes evolved as generations of giraffes reached for ever higher leaves.

Organisms driven to greater complexity
This sort of evolution, for which Lamarck is most famous today, was only one of two mechanisms he proposed. As organisms adapted to their surroundings, nature also drove them inexorably upward from simple forms to increasingly complex ones. Like Buffon, Lamarck believed that life had begun through spontaneous generation. But he claimed that new primitive life forms sprang up throughout the history of life; today's microbes were simply "the new kids on the block."

Early Concepts of Evolution: Jean Baptiste Lamarck

Lamarck's hypothesis of changes due to heredity were largely discarded by Darwin's ToE, but today it has come back due to epigenetics and the study of inheritance. With epigentic inheritance, one doesn't need the millions of years to affect changes like Darwin's hypothesis does. It's based on epigenetics or software instructions which turn on or off switches in one's cells for a particular trait. What's interesting is that these switches or instructions can be passed on one's children and grandchildren.


No, epigenetics is only a slight modification of the theory.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member

This is an overly simplistic cartoon elementary description of evolution. An example of the weakness of the cartoon reference is that species cannot interbreed with other closely related species. Species cannot be defined this way. My preference is more current scientific references that actually address the issue as I cited.
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes, and we use random variation as a design feature all the time, it's only logical, but it's not a comprehensive design mechanism. We see the exact same traits in life, variation is strictly limited to provide functional variaties, they have never been observed to create entirely new systems, they logically, mathematically cannot

Your math is akin to ENRON bookkeeping with a religious agenda.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
If you found a watch at the bottom of the ocean and some people claimed it formed through natural processes, you would probably also invoke the argument from incredulity. So what we all do is form a judgment on likelihood based on everything we understand. I've heard that before, but I has been refuted by his widow and others.

It is not just claimed. Your neglecting the fact that it remains that abiogenesis and evolution are the only natural games in play as to what may be falsified by scientific methods. Your obfuscation and denigrating view of science reflects your religious agenda. There are still unanswered question and there will always will be, but the perpetual motion wheel of appealing to ignorance and
that science is a matter of opinion gets you nowhere.

the science of abiogenesis and evolution is not a matter of opinion, because it is matter of the falsification of theories and hypothesis, and unfortunately 'Intelligent Design' is a matter of opinion.

The increasing understanding of DNA advanced dramatically since Flew was a young man.

The knowledge of DNA has advanced dramatically since Flew died. As a non-scientist he never had a good grasp of the biology of evolution
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
The chaos theory of evolution has been replaced by epigenetic inheritance since 2005. Epigenetic inheritance explains using the genome table and shows that Darwin was wrong about mutation causing large genetic changes and possibly some environment causing changes by natural selection. Jean-Baptiste Lamarck was one of the first to study changes caused by genetic factors.

"Darwin was not the first naturalist to propose that species changed over time into new species—that life, as we would say now, evolves. In the eighteenth century, Buffon and other naturalists began to introduce the idea that life might not have been fixed since creation. By the end of the 1700s, paleontologists had swelled the fossil collections of Europe, offering a picture of the past at odds with an unchanging natural world. And in 1801, a French naturalist named Jean Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, Chevalier de Lamarck took a great conceptual step and proposed a full-blown theory of evolution.

Lamarck started his scientific career as a botanist, but in 1793 he became one of the founding professors of the Musee National d'Histoire Naturelle as an expert on invertebrates. His work on classifying worms, spiders, molluscs, and other boneless creatures was far ahead of his time.

Change through use and disuse
Lamarck was struck by the similarities of many of the animals he studied, and was impressed too by the burgeoning fossil record. It led him to argue that life was not fixed. When environments changed, organisms had to change their behavior to survive. If they began to use an organ more than they had in the past, it would increase in its lifetime. If a giraffe stretched its neck for leaves, for example, a "nervous fluid" would flow into its neck and make it longer. Its offspring would inherit the longer neck, and continued stretching would make it longer still over several generations. Meanwhile organs that organisms stopped using would shrink.

dot_clear.gif
giraffenecks.jpg

Lamarck believed that the long necks of giraffes evolved as generations of giraffes reached for ever higher leaves.

Organisms driven to greater complexity
This sort of evolution, for which Lamarck is most famous today, was only one of two mechanisms he proposed. As organisms adapted to their surroundings, nature also drove them inexorably upward from simple forms to increasingly complex ones. Like Buffon, Lamarck believed that life had begun through spontaneous generation. But he claimed that new primitive life forms sprang up throughout the history of life; today's microbes were simply "the new kids on the block."

Early Concepts of Evolution: Jean Baptiste Lamarck

Lamarck's hypothesis of changes due to heredity were largely discarded by Darwin's ToE, but today it has come back due to epigenetics and the study of inheritance. With epigentic inheritance, one doesn't need the millions of years to affect changes like Darwin's hypothesis does. It's based on epigenetics or software instructions which turn on or off switches in one's cells for a particular trait. What's interesting is that these switches or instructions can be passed on one's children and grandchildren.


and why that elusive short necked Giraffe was never found
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Come to think of it, Darwinism and Solyndra do have a lot in common :)

Darwin's hypothesis for the science of evolution has been confirmed and verified by over 150 years of scientific research, which you are not remotely qualified in the science of evolution to provide a valid argument against evolution.

Solyndra and you have far more in common.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
and why that elusive short necked Giraffe was never found

Actually they have been found, again your total ignorance of the science of evolution is leering its ugly head. The phony balooney arguing from ignorance continues unabated based on a religious agenda.

From: 7-Million-Year-Old Fossils Show How the Giraffe Got Its Long Neck
7-Million-Year-Old Fossils Show How the Giraffe Got Its Long Neck
By Laura Geggel, Senior Writer | November 25, 2015 07:49am ET

For years, there has been scant fossil evidence showing how the giraffe evolved to have such an admirably long neck. But now, the remains of a 7-million-year-old creature with a shorter neck provides proof that the giraffe's iconic feature evolved in stages, lengthening over time, a new study finds.

The researchers are calling the remains of this ancient beast true "transitional" fossils, not only closing an evolutionary gap in the rise of Earth's tallest animals, but also providing concrete evidence of how one creature evolved into another.

"We actually have an animal whose neck is intermediate [in length] — it's a real missing link," said Nikos Solounias, a professor of anatomy at the New York Institute of Technology (NYIT) College of Osteopathic Medicine and the lead researcher on the study.

The creature in question — Samotherium major —lived during the Late Miocene in the forested areas of Eurasia, ranging from Italy to China, Solounias said. [In Photos: See Cute Pics of Baby Giraffes]

$

An ancestor of the giraffe split into two evolutionary branches, one leading to the okapi with its short neck and the other branch leading to the giraffes.
Credit: by Karl Tate, Infographics Artist
Researchers first discovered S. majorfossils in 1888, but the creature's importance wasn't realized until much later, said Solounias, who first got a glimpse of the fossils at a museum in Germany in the 1970s when he was working on his doctoral thesis.


"When I saw these bones, my breath was taken away," Solounias told Live Science.

The neck bones of S. major were shorter than those of a modern giraffe, but longer than those of the short-necked okapi, the giraffe's only living relative. Solounias didn't have the time or money to study the bones at the time, but he and his colleagues returned to them this year.

They analyzed the neck bones of four S. major individuals, three giraffes (Giraffa camelopardalis) and three okapis (O. johnstoni). On average, giraffes had 6.5-foot-long (2 meters) necks. In comparison, the necks of S. major were about 3.2 feet (1 m) long, and the okapi necks extended about 1.9 feet (60 centimeters).

The findings surprised them: Not only was the length of the S. major neck between that of the giraffe neck and the okapi neck, but its shape and the angles between bones were also intermediate.

If the researchers were to paint an S. major neck, color-coding its giraffelike parts red and its okapilike parts white, the top of the neck would be covered with red and white dots, and the bottom of the neck would be pink, the researchers said.

$

$

An illustration of the giraffe, Samotherium major and okapi necks and skulls.
Credit: Nikos Solounias
"In every way, it's intermediate," said study first author Melinda Danowitz, a medical student at the NYIT College of Osteopathic Medicine. "It's completely between the two living species."

The researchers also examined how S. major held its neck. The findings are preliminary, but based on the position of the bones, it appears that S. major held its neck vertically, as a giraffe does, instead of horizontally, as a cow does, they said.

The researchers also noted that S. majoris not a direct ancestor of the giraffe. "It's near the direct ancestor," Solounias said. "But the direct ancestor has not been found yet."

The finding is "very important," said Donald Prothero, a research associate in vertebrate paleontology at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, who was not involved with the new study.

"Contrary to what some creationists say, we do have transitional fossils that show how one kind of animal evolved from another," Prothero told Live Science. "We finally have fossils that show how giraffes got their long neck from short-necked ancestors, which most fossil giraffids were."
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
It is the mind-boggling complexity of DNA and what it accomplishes. And how did it form?

I have to echo the famous Antony Flew who was an atheist philosopher before having to accept intelligence as the most reasonable understanding of DNA.

Flew also renounced naturalistic theories of evolution:

"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."

We are not saying a naturalistic origin is impossible but it just doesn't seem like the most reasonable position.

In Darwin's day the protoplasm of a cell was a mere blob of fuzzy substance in the microscope lens. The digital information systems, nano machines within were beyond the imagination of Darwinists then, and beyond the expertise of most micro, molecular or cytobiologists today. What worked fine in the 19th C imagination, does not stand up to 21st C scientific understanding in the information age. This has long transcended any 'religious' debate, blind chance simply does not possess the creative power to assemble these systems, this is an entirely objective and unambiguous observation today, though old beliefs die hard.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Actually they have been found, again your total ignorance of the science of evolution is leering its ugly head. The phony balooney arguing from ignorance continues unabated based on a religious agenda.

From: 7-Million-Year-Old Fossils Show How the Giraffe Got Its Long Neck
7-Million-Year-Old Fossils Show How the Giraffe Got Its Long Neck
By Laura Geggel, Senior Writer | November 25, 2015 07:49am ET

For years, there has been scant fossil evidence showing how the giraffe evolved to have such an admirably long neck. But now, the remains of a 7-million-year-old creature with a shorter neck provides proof that the giraffe's iconic feature evolved in stages, lengthening over time, a new study finds.

The researchers are calling the remains of this ancient beast true "transitional" fossils, not only closing an evolutionary gap in the rise of Earth's tallest animals, but also providing concrete evidence of how one creature evolved into another.

"We actually have an animal whose neck is intermediate [in length] — it's a real missing link," said Nikos Solounias, a professor of anatomy at the New York Institute of Technology (NYIT) College of Osteopathic Medicine and the lead researcher on the study.

The creature in question — Samotherium major —lived during the Late Miocene in the forested areas of Eurasia, ranging from Italy to China, Solounias said. [In Photos: See Cute Pics of Baby Giraffes]

$

An ancestor of the giraffe split into two evolutionary branches, one leading to the okapi with its short neck and the other branch leading to the giraffes.
Credit: by Karl Tate, Infographics Artist
Researchers first discovered S. majorfossils in 1888, but the creature's importance wasn't realized until much later, said Solounias, who first got a glimpse of the fossils at a museum in Germany in the 1970s when he was working on his doctoral thesis.


"When I saw these bones, my breath was taken away," Solounias told Live Science.

The neck bones of S. major were shorter than those of a modern giraffe, but longer than those of the short-necked okapi, the giraffe's only living relative. Solounias didn't have the time or money to study the bones at the time, but he and his colleagues returned to them this year.

They analyzed the neck bones of four S. major individuals, three giraffes (Giraffa camelopardalis) and three okapis (O. johnstoni). On average, giraffes had 6.5-foot-long (2 meters) necks. In comparison, the necks of S. major were about 3.2 feet (1 m) long, and the okapi necks extended about 1.9 feet (60 centimeters).

The findings surprised them: Not only was the length of the S. major neck between that of the giraffe neck and the okapi neck, but its shape and the angles between bones were also intermediate.

If the researchers were to paint an S. major neck, color-coding its giraffelike parts red and its okapilike parts white, the top of the neck would be covered with red and white dots, and the bottom of the neck would be pink, the researchers said.

$

$

An illustration of the giraffe, Samotherium major and okapi necks and skulls.
Credit: Nikos Solounias
"In every way, it's intermediate," said study first author Melinda Danowitz, a medical student at the NYIT College of Osteopathic Medicine. "It's completely between the two living species."

The researchers also examined how S. major held its neck. The findings are preliminary, but based on the position of the bones, it appears that S. major held its neck vertically, as a giraffe does, instead of horizontally, as a cow does, they said.

The researchers also noted that S. majoris not a direct ancestor of the giraffe. "It's near the direct ancestor," Solounias said. "But the direct ancestor has not been found yet."

The finding is "very important," said Donald Prothero, a research associate in vertebrate paleontology at the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, who was not involved with the new study.

"Contrary to what some creationists say, we do have transitional fossils that show how one kind of animal evolved from another," Prothero told Live Science. "We finally have fossils that show how giraffes got their long neck from short-necked ancestors, which most fossil giraffids were."

^ incase you missed it:
"The researchers also noted that S. major is not a direct ancestor of the giraffe"

no insults required, the facts speak far louder, like them or not
 
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