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Can Randomness and Chance cause the Evolution of life?

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Why do you say so?
It is the mind-boggling complexity of DNA and what it accomplishes. And how did it form?

I have to echo the famous Antony Flew who was an atheist philosopher before having to accept intelligence as the most reasonable understanding of DNA.

Flew also renounced naturalistic theories of evolution:

"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."

We are not saying a naturalistic origin is impossible but it just doesn't seem like the most reasonable position.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It is the mind-boggling complexity of DNA and what it accomplishes. And how did it form?

First, your appealing to the fallacy 'arguing from ignorance' concerning whether science can explain complexity and the origin of DNA. In reality science has a good working hypothesis for determining where DNA originates. All the questions have not been answered yet, but the ground work is sound for the hypothesis. Second the problem is one thing missing here; a falsifiable scientific hypothesis for 'Intelligent Design.'

I have to echo the famous Antony Flew who was an atheist philosopher before having to accept intelligence as the most reasonable understanding of DNA.

First problem, Your over stating Anthony Flew claimed to be a Deist, and not a believer on a hands on theist God. Second, he was a philosopher and not a scientist.
Flew also renounced naturalistic theories of evolution:

"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."

I do not consider Anthony Flew competent in science to pass judgement on abiogenesis nor evolution. He has been dead 8 years, and there have been many publications on abiogenesis since in peer reviewed scientific journals.

We are not saying a naturalistic origin is impossible but it just doesn't seem like the most reasonable position.

We?!?!? I consider this an ambiguous response, and not meaningful.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
First, your appealing to the fallacy 'arguing from ignorance' concerning whether science can explain complexity and the origin of DNA. In reality science has a good working hypothesis for determining where DNA originates. All the questions have not been answered yet, but the ground work is sound for the hypothesis. Second the problem is one thing missing here; a falsifiable scientific hypothesis for 'Intelligent Design.'
You are twisting my words. All I am saying that I believe the existence of DNA seems to be best explained with the inclusion of intelligence. I am not arguing that anyone can prove anything or that I have a falsifiable scientific hypothesis for 'Intelligent Design.'

I agree that a wholly naturalistic method may have produced DNA but I find it unlikely from the mind-boggling complexity.

First problem, Your over stating Anthony Flew claimed to be a Deist, and not a believer on a hands on theist God.
What did I overstate?? I never said he was a believer in a hands on theist God, did I? I was only talking about DNA and intelligence when I re-read my statement.

Are you confusing me with a Christian apologetic? That's the only way I can make sense of your comment.

I do not consider Anthony Flew competent in science to pass judgement on abiogenesis nor evolution. He has been dead 8 years, and there have been many publications on abiogenesis since in peer reviewed scientific journals.
I was just mentioning Flew as an example of a philosopher who shared my views on DNA and the likeliness of intelligent involvement. Your opinion on Flew and my competence is duly noted.:)

 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
Can Randomness and Chance cause the natural evolution of life?

For that matter, can randomness and chance cause anything?

This common banner of Creationists promoting 'Intelligent Design' and claiming natural evolution cannot happen because of randomness and chance in natural events. Is the variation in the outcomes of cause and effects truly random?

What is the relationship between cause and effect and the variation in the outcomes in nature. Can we have the complexity of life we have today evolve from simplicity?

What are the known causes of life and evolution?

Does random and chance occur in nature? If so how?

First reference:

The chaos theory of evolution By Keith Bennett

mg20827821.000-1_300.jpg

Forget finding the laws of evolution. The history of life is just one damn thing after another

That is not to say that evolution is random – far from it. But the neat concept of adaptation to the environment driven by natural selection, as envisaged by Darwin in On the Origin of Species and now a central feature of the theory of evolution, is too simplistic. Instead, evolution is chaotic.

Adaptationism certainly appears to hold true in microevolution – small-scale evolutionary change within species, such as changes in beak shape in Galapagos finches in response to available food sources.

However, there is still huge debate about the role of natural selection and adaptation in “macroevolution” – big evolutionary events such as changes in biodiversity over time, evolutionary radiations and, of course, the origin of species. Are these the cumulative outcome of the same processes that drive microevolution, or does macroevolution have its own distinct processes and patterns?
. . .
Palaeoecologists like me are now bringing a new perspective to the problem. If macroevolution really is an extrapolation of natural selection and adaptation, we would expect to see environmental change driving evolutionary change. Major climatic events such as ice ages ought to leave their imprint on life as species adapt to the new conditions. Is that what actually happens?

Our understanding of global environmental change is vastly more detailed than it was in Lyell and Darwin’s time. James Zachos at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and colleagues, have shown that the Earth has been on a long-term cooling trend for the past 65 million years (Science, vol 292, p 686). Superimposed upon this are oscillations in climate every 20,000, 40,000 and 100,000 years caused by wobbles in the Earth’s orbit.

Over the past 2 million years – the Quaternary period – these oscillations have increased in amplitude and global climate has lurched between periods of glaciation and warmer interglacials. The big question is, how did life respond to these climatic changes? In principle, three types of evolutionary response are possible: stasis, extinction, or evolutionary change. What do we actually see?

To answer that question we look to the fossil record. We now have good data covering the past 2 million years and excellent data on the past 20,000 years. We can also probe evolutionary history with the help of both modern and ancient DNA.

The highly detailed record of the past 20,000 years comes from analyses of fossilised tree pollen from lake and peat sediments. Tree pollen is generally recognisable to the level of genus, sometimes even species, and the sediments in which it is found can easily be radiocarbon dated.
. . .
Research on animals has come to similarly unexpected conclusions, albeit based on sparser fossil records. For example, palaeontologist Russell Graham at Illinois State Museum has looked at North American mammals and palaeontologist Russell Coope at the University of Birmingham in the UK has examined insects (Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics, vol 10, p 247). Both studies show that most species remain unchanged for hundreds of thousands of years, perhaps longer, and across several ice ages. Species undergo major changes in distribution and abundance, but show no evolution of morphological characteristics despite major environmental changes.

That is not to say that major evolutionary change such as speciation doesn’t happen. But recent “molecular clock” research suggests the link between speciation and environmental change is weak at best.

Die hard
Molecular clock approaches allow us to estimate when two closely related modern species split from a common ancestor by comparing their DNA. Most of this work has been carried out in birds, and shows that new species appear more or less continuously, regardless of the dramatic climatic oscillations of the Quaternary or the longer term cooling that preceded it (Trends in Ecology and Evolution, vol 20, p 57).

What of extinction? Of course, species have gone extinct during the past 20,000 years. However, almost all examples involve some degree of human activity, either directly (think dodos) or indirectly (large mammals at the end of the last ice age, 12,000 years ago).
. . .
If environmental changes as substantial as continent-wide glaciations do not force evolutionary change, then what does? It is hard to see how adaptation by natural selection during lesser changes might then accumulate and lead to macroevolution.

I suggest that the true source of macroevolutionary change lies in the non-linear, or chaotic, dynamics of the relationship between genotype and phenotype – the actual organism and all its traits. The relationship is non-linear because phenotype, or set of observable characteristics, is determined by a complex interplay between an organism’s genes – tens of thousands of them, all influencing one another’s behaviour – and its environment.

Not only is the relationship non-linear, it also changes all the time. Mutations occur continually, without external influence, and can be passed on to the next generation. A change of a single base of an organism’s DNA might have no consequence, because that section of DNA still codes for the same amino acid. Alternatively, it might cause a significant change in the offspring’s physiology or morphology, or it might even be fatal. In other words, a single small change can have far-reaching and unpredictable effects – the hallmark of a non-linear system.

Iterating these unpredictable changes over hundreds or thousands of generations will inevitably lead to evolutionary changes in addition to any that come about by the preferential survival of certain phenotypes. It follows that macroevolution may, over the longer-term, be driven largely by internally generated genetic change, not adaptation to a changing environment.

The evolution of life has many characteristics that are typical of non-linear systems. First, it is deterministic: changes in one part of the system, such as the mutation of a DNA base, directly cause other changes. However, the change is unpredictable. Just like the weather, changes are inexorable but can only be followed with the benefit of hindsight.

Second, behaviour of the system is sensitive to initial conditions. We see this in responses to glaciations in the Quaternary period. The exact circumstances of the beginning of each interglacial determine the development of the whole period, leading to unpredictable differences between interglacials (Quaternary Science Reviews, vol 14, p 967).

Third, the history of life is fractal. Take away the labelling from any portion of the tree of life and we cannot tell at which scale we are looking (see diagram). This self-similarity also indicates that evolutionary change is a process of continual splitting of the branches of the tree.

Fourth, we cannot rewind, as Stephen Jay Gould argued in Wonderful Life. Were we to turn the evolutionary clock back to any point in the past, and let it run again, the outcome would be different. As in weather systems, the initial conditions can never be specified to sufficient precision to prevent divergence of subsequent trajectories.

Life on Earth is always unique, changing, and unpredictable. Even if certain patterns can be dimly discerned, our ability to do so diminishes with time, exactly as for the weather. Consider any moment of the geological record of life on Earth: to what extent were the changes of the next 10 or 100 million years predictable at that time? With the benefit of hindsight, we might be able to understand what happened, and construct a plausible narrative for those events, but we have no foresight.

This view of life leads to certain consequences. Macroevolution is not the simple accumulation of microevolutionary changes but has its own processes and patterns. There can be no “laws” of evolution. We may be able to reconstruct the sequence of events leading to the evolution of any given species or group after the fact, but we will not be able to generalise from these to other sequences of events. From a practical point of view, this means we will be unable to predict how species will respond to projected climate changes over next century.
. . .
We still have much to learn about how life evolved but we will not develop a full appreciation until we accept the complexity of the system."

Bingo!
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
First, there is no evidence that randomness and chance occur in nature, nor that they cause anything. Second, evolution is based on more than 'belief.'



Believe? Suggests 'Intelligence?' That is a theist assumption without a shred of evidence.
There's plenty of evidence. Randomness plays a role with DNA sequencing. It's why offspring have unique and varied characteristics even twins have variations.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is the mind-boggling complexity of DNA and what it accomplishes. And how did it form?

I have to echo the famous Antony Flew who was an atheist philosopher before having to accept intelligence as the most reasonable understanding of DNA.

Flew also renounced naturalistic theories of evolution:

"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."

We are not saying a naturalistic origin is impossible but it just doesn't seem like the most reasonable position.

This is the informal logical fallacy called the argument from incredulity. "I just can't see how it could have happened, so I'm concluding that it didn't"

We can probably account for Flew transforming from somebody who had no problem viewing evolution as a biological evolution being an undirected, naturalistic process to invoking the supernatural to his declining mental health in his final years.

Or perhaps you think that he finally thought of something near the end of his life that he had overlooked for most of a lifetime.

Incidentally, for those that are a still a bit more mentally flexible, it's still pretty easy to think about and even accept a naturalistic theory of biological evolution.

Finally, complexity is not an argument for intelligence. We know that incredibly complex arrangements arise naturalistically. The ID people agree, which is why they refer to specified and irreducible complexity in biological system as an indication of intelligent design, not unqualified complexity per se.

DNA is not known to be either.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
This is the informal logical fallacy called the argument from incredulity. "I just can't see how it could have happened, so I'm concluding that it didn't"
If you found a watch at the bottom of the ocean and some people claimed it formed through natural processes, you would probably also invoke the argument from incredulity. So what we all do is form a judgment on likelihood based on everything we understand.
We can probably account for Flew transforming from somebody who had no problem viewing evolution as a biological evolution being an undirected, naturalistic process to invoking the supernatural to his declining mental health in his final years.
I've heard that before, but I has been refuted by his widow and others. The increasing understanding of DNA advanced dramatically since Flew was a young man.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It is the mind-boggling complexity of DNA and what it accomplishes. And how did it form?

I have to echo the famous Antony Flew who was an atheist philosopher before having to accept intelligence as the most reasonable understanding of DNA.

Flew also renounced naturalistic theories of evolution:

"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."

We are not saying a naturalistic origin is impossible but it just doesn't seem like the most reasonable position.

And before Flew was an "atheist" he was the son of a preacher.
You kinda left out the biggest detail.

For people to grow up in a religious family, fall away, (escape?)
and then be drawn back to chirch is just common as dirt, not the
least bit remarable.

People do like "prodigal son" stories, and this is one better, the person
who also realizes ("realizes") that atheism is all wrong, that is so much better.

A cousin to the story is the so-common "I was the worst of sinners" story.

We all get the purpose of that.

And wei get the purpose of your saying that he "had to accept" Instead of
"decided", or perhaps "talked himself into de iding". "Accept the inevitable" ya know,
Inexorably drawn by facts and logic. Not, of course, by his fathers words for lo,
It just aint so that try as we might not to, inevitably we become our parents. :D

Withal, such people and accounts may well seem quite significant to
"believers" , and I suppose they do. I see the A Flew thing mentioned pften enough.

Just keep in mind that to an actual atheist, and one who is some familiar with
human nature-like returning to what was imprinted on the child- it
is utterly unconcvincing for any point you wish to make about, say, the
possible validity of "intelligent design" .

It is merely tiresome, "here we go again with moldy stuff."

Just sayin', do as you like.
You are twisting my words. All I am saying that I believe the existence of DNA seems to be best explained with the inclusion of intelligence. I am not arguing that anyone can prove anything or that I have a falsifiable scientific hypothesis for 'Intelligent Design.'

I agree that a wholly naturalistic method may have produced DNA but I find it unlikely from the mind-boggling complexity.

What did I overstate?? I never said he was a believer in a hands on theist God, did I? I was only talking about DNA and intelligence when I re-read my statement.

Are you confusing me with a Christian apologetic? That's the only way I can make sense of your comment.

I was just mentioning Flew as an example of a philosopher who shared my views on DNA and the likeliness of intelligent involvement. Your opinion on Flew and my competence is duly noted.:)

You sure that "seems to be" and, "seems to YOU to be" are the same thing?
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
And before Flew was an "atheist" he was the son of a preacher.
You kinda left out the biggest detail.

For people to grow up in a religious family, fall away, (escape?)
and then be drawn back to chirch is just common as dirt, not the
least bit remarable.

People do like "prodigal son" stories, and this is one better, the person
who also realizes ("realizes") that atheism is all wrong, that is so much better.

A cousin to the story is the so-common "I was the worst of sinners" story.

We all get the purpose of that.

And wei get the purpose of your saying that he "had to accept" Instead of
"decided", or perhaps "talked himself into de iding". "Accept the inevitable" ya know,
Inexorably drawn by facts and logic. Not, of course, by his fathers words for lo,
It just aint so that try as we might not to, inevitably we become our parents. :D

Withal, such people and accounts may well seem quite significant to
"believers" , and I suppose they do. I see the A Flew thing mentioned pften enough.

Just keep in mind that to an actual atheist, and one who is some familiar with
human nature-like returning to what was imprinted on the child- it
is utterly unconcvincing for any point you wish to make about, say, the
possible validity of "intelligent design" .
Are you aware that Flew never accepted the existence of the Christian God, even to the end? He was just making an argument from complexity, a deist argument.

His quote was:


"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."

Neither Flew nor I are saying a naturalistic explanation is impossible.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Are you aware that Flew never accepted the existence of the Christian God, even to the end? He was just making an argument from complexity, a deist argument.

His quote was:


"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."

Neither Flew nor I are saying a naturalistic explanation is impossible.


Whether Christian or other is of no significance.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Are you aware that Flew never accepted the existence of the Christian God, even to the end? He was just making an argument from complexity, a deist argument.

His quote was:


"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."

Neither Flew nor I are saying a naturalistic explanation is impossible.
So he found a problem that he could not solve and gave up. Is it any wonder that he is not well respected for this in the world of science? Meanwhile other scientists have been finding the answers that eluded him. Your argument is merely an argument from ignorance with a false appeal to authority.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
There's plenty of evidence. Randomness plays a role with DNA sequencing. It's why offspring have unique and varied characteristics even twins have variations.

False randomness by definition is not observed as playing a role in outcomes of cause and effect relationships. Individual events in mutation are not predictable, but the pattern is fractal and the resulting long term pattern is predictable.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
False randomness by definition is not observed as playing a role in outcomes of cause and effect relationships. Individual events in mutation are not predictable, but the pattern is fractal and the resulting long term pattern is predictable.

 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
So he found a problem that he could not solve and gave up. Is it any wonder that he is not well respected for this in the world of science? Meanwhile other scientists have been finding the answers that eluded him. Your argument is merely an argument from ignorance with a false appeal to authority.
My and Flew’s position is based on what we feel is the most reasonable position to hold based on all the evidence and observation. Yes, it’s an opinion like those thinking a naturalistic explanation is more likely is an opinion.

Neither of us is saying to stop looking for fully naturalistic explanations.

And even if a naturalistic explanation is formulated how would we determine that is what actually DID happen? And even if we could show a natural process, how could we ever determine that it didn’t work out that way because of Conscious intent?

In the end we each have our best judgment. Mine comes from more than the question of abiogenesis.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
My and Flew’s position is based on what we feel is the most reasonable position to hold based on all the evidence and observation. Yes, it’s an opinion like those thinking a naturalistic explanation is more likely is an opinion.

Neither of us is saying to stop looking for fully naturalistic explanations.

And even if a naturalistic explanation is formulated how would we determine that is what actually DID happen? And even if we could show a natural process, how could we ever determine that it didn’t work out that way because of Consciouss intent?

In the end we each have our best judgment. Mine comes from more than the question of abiogenesis.

The problem for you, not Flew since he is dead now, is that others took up the challenge and have answered many of the questions that he could not. What happens if the problem of abiogenesis is solved? Do you even know what the remaining problems are?

What you do not seem to understand that a rational explanation has always been preferred to the answer "I don't care, god (or gods) did it." We no longer have rain gods, or wisdom gods, or countless other gods because they are no longer of any use. It is up to the person claiming that "god did it" to support their claims and they have never been able to do so.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you found a watch at the bottom of the ocean and some people claimed it formed through natural processes, you would probably also invoke the argument from incredulity.

The watch has been shown to be an inadequate analogy to biological systems and their naturalistic evolution. Watches have no way to self-assemble, nor to transmit their characteristics to future generations of watches much less vary them in the transmission.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The problem for you, not Flew since he is dead now, is that others took up the challenge and have answered many of the questions that he could not. What happens if the problem of abiogenesis is solved? Do you even know what the remaining problems are?

What you do not seem to understand that a rational explanation has always been preferred to the answer "I don't care, god (or gods) did it." We no longer have rain gods, or wisdom gods, or countless other gods because they are no longer of any use. It is up to the person claiming that "god did it" to support their claims and they have never been able to do so.
I agree that science needs to continue trying to understand the natural world from a naturalist perspective. If you are strictly interested in physical science then your position is correct.

I am coming from a pantheistic perspective where everything is an expression of Consciousness and comes from a thought/play/drama of Consciousness/God/Brahman. . I believe in ultimate downward causation, It all started as a creative emanation from fundamental consciousness. For example, I believe there are nature spirits that design nature, and not restricted to abiogenesis.

I know the simple appeal of materialism but from my decades of interest in the paranormal and spiritual matters, a materialist view has become untenable. There are more planes/realms/dimensions in the universe
effecting and even deriving the physical.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The watch has been shown to be an inadequate analogy to biological systems and their naturalistic evolution. Watches have no way to self-assemble, nor to transmit their characteristics to future generations of watches much less vary them in the transmission.
I'll agree, the watch may not be a good example actually.
 
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