sandandfoam
Veteran Member
Teilhard wrote "Without mysticism there can be no successful religion"
In your opinion was he correct?
In your opinion was he correct?
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Can religion be successful without mysticism?
- Thread starter sandandfoam
- Start date
Classicus
Member
I personally think that, in time, not one religion can be succesful at all.
Problem is that every religion sooner or later will come to the point where its beliefs are just so old-fashioned and out of this world that they cannot be succesful anymore.
Christianity is somewhere on that point in most parts of western Europe I think(views on anticonception, gays, the age of the earth, creationism are 1: against the common sense of people and 2: against scientific proof).
In America that point is not yet reached with so many people sadly.
Problem is that every religion sooner or later will come to the point where its beliefs are just so old-fashioned and out of this world that they cannot be succesful anymore.
Christianity is somewhere on that point in most parts of western Europe I think(views on anticonception, gays, the age of the earth, creationism are 1: against the common sense of people and 2: against scientific proof).
In America that point is not yet reached with so many people sadly.
sandandfoam
Veteran Member
God. Hadn't thought of that.
For the sake of argument let's agree to defer to the authority of the great wiki for definition
Baydwin
Well-Known Member
I reckon it can be. I think many people who identify themselves as religious, or as Christian, Muslim etc, don't get very deep into it at all. They might follow the customs and go to prayers every week, or however frequently they are inclined to, but once they're out of the Church/Mosque etc they forget all about God and just go on with their lives.
Generally, mystical experiences take some form of effort to generate, meditation for example. I think most lay people are quite happy to give their God his dues so they get into heaven and leave all the "mumbo-jumbo" to the priestly classes.
And I think that's probably true for all religions throughout history. In Rome people would make prayers and offerings, but it was the priests who'd mediate and do all the ritual. In animistic cultures people go to the shamans for all their spiritual needs. Most people don't have the time, or inclination, to delve that deep.
Generally, mystical experiences take some form of effort to generate, meditation for example. I think most lay people are quite happy to give their God his dues so they get into heaven and leave all the "mumbo-jumbo" to the priestly classes.
And I think that's probably true for all religions throughout history. In Rome people would make prayers and offerings, but it was the priests who'd mediate and do all the ritual. In animistic cultures people go to the shamans for all their spiritual needs. Most people don't have the time, or inclination, to delve that deep.
Yes, first, the word mysticism understood differently by different people.
In Shia Islam, the pillars of the religion,
Are beliefs, were no rituals are involved,
They are the beliefs in God as one and justice, Messenger, imam (Leader), the Hereafter.
Any one have these beliefs is a Shia Muslim.
Then there are the rituals and the other less important beliefs.
At this level people pray for god, seek intercession of the Imams, and expect God to support them (is this mysticism?)
At the highest level is the "Irfan"; which involve many not compulsory activities, where small percentage of people seek to fully purify their souls, in order to be close to God. People may reach different levels of proximity to Allah, and depending on their levels they gain inner knowledge, and powers.
logician
Well-Known Member
It depends on the type of congregation, liberal congregations have decreased in membership dramatically in the last decade or so, conservative memberships have increased, although current economic hardships are affecting all churches.
No I do not think that is correct.
In religious organizations that varies in groups and people applying spiritual principles.
One could always find great success of these principles forgiveness judge not communion with God giving alms and many more if the seekers seeked they will find.
　
But religions would become better when they realize their scriptures are all more mystic than literal. That they do not have all understanding now and that there's much more to learn.
That's why mysticism would be required for success. It holds a view that is immediate and always fresh.
Kilgore Trout
Misanthropic Humanist
I don't see why religion couldn't be successful without mysticism. You get a large enough herd of people moving in the right direction, that motion will be pretty self-sustaining, regardless of what motivation was used. Then again, this largely depends on how one defines religion, mysticism, and successful.
Just so. Popularity, the most [satisfying relationship] to offer [to each].
Jollybear
Hey
I think a religion can be successfull without mysticism, but I also think it is LACKING without mysticism. Just because something is successfull, doesn't mean it's completely true.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
popularity?
well then no...religion doesnt require mysticism...
thats why the esoteric may or may not be a part of the exoteric
but those resigned to being within the exoteric are often unaware of the esoteric
as we can see from the vast majority of the posts on this board, arguably, the exoteric simply doesn't understand the esoteric...in the majority of cases
Take a real world example....
does Macdonald's actually have to serve nutritious wholesome food to be successful?
no...
Macdonald's does NOT require anything of any real substance in order to serve "billions".......
thus religion really doesnt require mysticism.... of course there are fringe issues...
much like one could argue an Egg McMuffin is a slight attempt at nutritious food...thusly religion may need things that are barely aproaching mysticism in order to be successful.
Of course there is the Chicken McNugget
esoteric=for the few
exoteric=for the many
The below explores more:
...............
“I believe in the religion
Of Love
Whatever direction its caravans may take,
For love is my religion and my faith.”
–Ibn ‘Arabi
It all comes back, in a sense, to the term “esoteric,” which has been widely misrepresented and misunderstood. The concept is a keystone of Schuon’s thought (and appears in the title of one of his chief stud­ies, Esoterism as Principle and as Way)., Using the symbol of a circle and its center-a formulation that Schuon also employs in his writ­ings-another leading traditionalist author, Martin Lings, has described how esoterism is actually the link between world religions:
My intelligence had never been able to accept the exclu­sivist idea that there is only one valid religion. But now it had learned and most readily accepted the truth that the great religions of the world, all of them equally Heaven-sent in accordance with the various needs of different sectors of humanity, can be graphically represented by points on the circumference of a circle, each point being connected with the center, that is, with God, by a radius. The points stand for the outward aspects of the religions, whereas each radius is the esoteric path which the religion in question offers to those who seek a direct way to God in this life, and who are capable of compliance with the demands of that way of sanctification, demands far more rigorous and exacting than those of the exoteric way of salvation.
The secret (or inner) does not negate or deny the open (or outer), which can at times even be said to surround it, contain it, protect it, albeit perhaps unwittingly. In specifically Islamic terms, the tarigah (Arabic for path or Way) does not replace the shart’ah (the law, the highly developed code of rules and regulations that consti­tutes Islam); both start with the same foundational guidelines. But at the same time, since the esoteric path is one where movement takes place inside the circle, its progress may not always be dis­cernible to those on the circumference.
The secret is furthermore not clandestine out of paranoia or some perverse predilection for elitist exclusivism, but because exposure and publicity always crudely compromise the message being pre­served. As with the meaning of a fairy tale, any attempt to expose the esoteric to the light of rational analysis spoils it forever, robs it of all its magical meaning: truth vanishes in a puff of smoke under such circumstances. Ripping the veil off a hidden or sacred symbol reveals nothing of the inner clarity of the representation in ques­tion, but only the naked hollowness of the vision of the viewer.
The straight path-spoken of as “al-Sirat al-Mustaqfm” in the fati­hah, the all-embracing opening verses of the Qur’an-of true Sufism thus never really strays outside the circumference of the circle; nor does it meander in and out of it. It heads steadily (and usually with great difficulty) toward the center. As with a traditional craftsman, a painter, ,or a pianist, years of training in technique are required before the seeker is allowed the grace of improvisation-usually only when the center is within reach.
This demanding or rigorous path is never easy or comfortable, nor is it egalitarian or democratic, accessible to all. It is an initiatic way, the traditionalists insist, one of direct experience which cannot be spoken of to outsiders, not because the listener “should not” be told about it, but because they would and could not recognize the vocab­ulary, and the very attempt to verbalize it would do far more harm than good for the cause of understanding.
–Merton and Sufism the Untold story Pgs. 198-200
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Do you agree that the active pursuit of the exoteric is losing ground to atheism? I would propose, though unsubstantiated, that where it keeps its ground, its popularity, is where it maintains the esoteric.
It also depends how you define success. What's the goal of a religion?
That's what I'm wondering about. I don't know Teilhard; if by "successful religion", he just meant "religion that I find agreeable", then he could very well be completely correct.
logician
Well-Known Member
Most denominations nowadays are doing everything to sustain membership by "hamming up the services", i.e. more techno-visual aids during the service, and more guest singers, as well as building recreatonal facililties to attract the younger crowd. Many, however, have gotten deeply in debt doing these things at the worst possible time, when contributions are going down because people are out of work.
Mr Cheese
Well-Known Member
what about in latin and south america...
where exoteric is very much growing
Or in Islam....which maintains the exoteric over the esoteric, especially in regions akin to Afghanistan.....
witness the filipeno way of performing crucifixtions every easter!
this would certainly be a chicken McNugget to me...